Ballistic gelatin test results: 7.62x25mm Tokarev

[Brass Fetcher]

Cartridge: 85gr Sellier and Bellot FMJ

Firearm: CZ-52 with 4.6" barrel length

Block calibration: 593 ft/sec and 10.3cm penetration

Single shot was fired to the center of the block from a distance of 6 feet. Bullet impacted the block at 1510 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" of ballistic gelatin, 10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin), and 1.5" of loose-packed 'play sand'.

Bullet penetrated to 7.0" in the gelatin, when it began to tumble. Bullet apparently 'righted itself', traveling base forward from 14.5" onwards. Interestingly, the bullet was recovered from the playsand, in a sideways attitude - indicating that it had once again started to tumble sometime after exit from the ballistic gelatin. Bullet was recovered with no deformation present.

I would like to thank JohnKSa for lending me the gun and providing the ammunition that was utilized in the test. If you found this information helpful, please let him know. It was quite a bear for both of us to get the shipping and such organized at this time of the year.

Thank you,

JE223

 

[Novus Collectus]

Thank you for conducting the tests.

 

[McCall911]

1510 fps from factory ammo!

That's really eye opening! Such performance from a .30 caliber handgun round!

Thanks for another job well done, JE223!

 

[grimjaw]

Holy moley. That's a wartime round and no mistake.

jm

 

[Cosmoline]

Wow! That's some serious penetration.

 

[Jackal]

Why some current producing firearms manufacturer doesn't chamber any new handguns for this round is beyond me. It's cheap, powerful, accurate and the recoil is quite mild. I would have zero hesitation to buy a modern handgun, such as a Springfield XD chambered for this potent little round.

 

[JohnKSa]

John,

Can you tell what caused the initial temporary cavity at around 3" of penetration?

For comparison, here's a gel test of 9mm FMJ from Firearms Tactical's site.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
It starts to tumble around 6" and penetrates a total of about 27".

The 7.62x25 round penetrated the equivalent of 28" of gel plus whatever the equivalent of 1.5" of sand works out to.

Kind of surprised to see the performance is so similar to 9mm ball. It looks like the 7.62x25 takes longer to complete the tumble cycle which might actually result in a slightly larger wound volume than the 9mm ball. Probably not anything practically significant though.

Very cool results--thanks for the hard work!

Shipping issues were simplified by help from Tom at Tom's Discount Gun & Indoor Range. He's located on Highway 276 between Rockwall and Quinlan.

Why some current producing firearms manufacturer doesn't chamber any new handguns for this round is beyond me.

It's a very long round. None of the common autopistol frames would work with a round this long. It won't even fit into a 10mm magazine.

 

[McCall911]

Thanks to you also, JohnKSa.

FWIW, I worked up a "fudge number" in my BASIC momentum penetration calculator for the 9mm non-expanding ball ammo in the illustration and came up with a penetration depth of 29 inches.

For the 7.25x25, I used the same "fudge number" (shape factor) and got 33.5 inches.

Sure, the 9mm has a larger momentum value, but its surface area retards penetration more than the 7.62 bullet. Hmm...maybe there is a use for some
formulas after all!

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I would very much like to see some of the 'modern' guns chambered for this caliber. There is really no reason not to, aside from the fact that it has the chance to replace the other 'high velocity' pistols, in terms of terminal performance. It looks to me to be able to fill the role of the 5.7, while still packing a pretty sizeable punch on unarmored targets. As was mentioned, the length would be a problem. But then again, it wasn't a problem for the armies of all of the nations that adopted the cartridge way back when...

As far as the tumbling, you've got me. I've seen it happen this way with the 9x19mm WWB FMJ and a .32NAA FMJ. Rifles such as the AK74 and Ma Deuce do this too, at least according to my tests. One very neat thing, that is not apparent on the photos, is the width of the wound track during the time that the bullet was traveling sideways - a tear in the gelatin 1/2" wide for the entire length of the sideways travel. This would make for a very serious wound, in my estimation.

 

[roscoe]

And did the gun blow up?

Sorry for the joke - but thanks for test. Impressive performance - makes me want a CZ52!

 

[RyanM]

MacPherson's equations say 31" penetration in gelatin, compared to about 29.6" for 9mm 124 gr at 1120 fps. Both figures assume no tumbling, however.

Do you still have the gun? If so, someone could send you some of them JHPs that everyone wants to see tested.

 

[Geronimo45]

Take the 7.62 Tokarev and rename it the 8mm Magnum. What you really need is a new, doublestack pistol in that caliber. Maybe Taurus would be interested, if enough folks suggest it.

 

[Odd Job]

Thank-you JE223, JohnKSa and Tom for making that test possible.
I have one case in my file where a guy got shot with a 7.62 x 25 round in the heel and ankle, and that was quite a nasty wound. That round had a steel jacket and a steel insert.
Unfortunately the weapon and range of fire are unknown in that case, and there is evidence that there may have been a ricochet off the pavement too.
I am guessing that the steel insert version of the Sellier and Bellot ammunition would perform the same in ballistic gelatin (I assume that the slightly lighter steel insert won't affect performance too much).
What do you gents think about that?

 

[Novus Collectus]

Take the 7.62 Tokarev and rename it the 8mm Magnum. What you really need is a new, doublestack pistol in that caliber. Maybe Taurus would be interested, if enough folks suggest it.

Pull the grips off of a CZ52 and you will discover the frame is open on one side where the magazine goes. I am not knowledgable in this area at all, but I would assume that a double stack magazine could be made with a narrow single feed at the top that would fit.
The pistol grip might not be geometric since only one side would be enlarged, but this might possibly be offset by making the outside of the protruding side the actual grip on that side.
Personally, I think the grip is way too narrow anyway and a much wider grip would just make it better.

 

[McCall911]

Anyway, I hope some of the guys at CZ are paying attention to the comments on this board. We might even let them rename the cartridge to the "7.62 CZ Magnum" for their new line of 7.62 pistols based on the CZ-75
design!

 

[Novus Collectus]

Anyway, I hope some of the guys at CZ are paying attention to the comments on this board. We might even let them rename the cartridge to the "7.62 CZ Magnum" for their new line of 7.62 pistols based on the CZ-75
design!

I like the way Geronimo45's name for it sounds better. 8mm Magnum has a real nice ring to it.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

In the limited time that I was shooting the pistol at the range, I was thinking about "Would I carry this as a defensive pistol?" In my opinion, it is in the same category as a full-size 1911 in terms of terminal effectiveness. One is better at unarmored targets and the other would be better against a target standing behind cover. But. The more narrow cartridge case of the 7.62x25mm would lend itself much more handily to being in a double-stack magazine, while still retaining some semblance of a narrow pistol grip. Someone get on the phone to Taurus!

@Odd Job, I think that the steel insert would have an effect, assuming that the bullet was the same weight as the lead core version that I was using. I say this because steel is less dense than lead, so the bullet would then have to be longer - creating a larger hole when the bullet tumbled. Additionally, it must be able to hold together better after striking bone. Do you have any pics of the bullet?

Yes. If anyone has or wants to see the Wolf JHP tested, please post so to this thread. I tried to get some for this test, but none seemed to be available. There are 2 more gelatin blocks to be shot before the gun goes back to its owner.

JE223

 

[Jackal]

If anyone has or wants to see the Wolf JHP tested, please post so to this thread.

I would like to see it. I have conducted my own tests with it using 30lb cat litter jugs filled with water. The seem to deform more than expand. However, they do penetrate 3 of the nearly 12 inch thick water jugs. I would be happy to send some of the Wolf HP's. I have some on hand. Let me know how many rounds you need.

 

[JohnKSa]

With the length of the cartridge being what it is, you'd have to be pretty ingenious to come up with a doublestack design that didn't make for a huge grip. The CZ grip is pretty long (front to back) but is very slim in the current configuration. If you made it much fatter, I think many folks would start to have problems with the grip size.

Still, an increased capacity gun in this caliber with a standard mag button and a more accessible slide release would be fairly handy. As it is, the CZ-52 is surprisingly concealable with a decent holster due to the fact that it is VERY thin. Of course there's the weight...

 

[roscoe]

I also want to see the Wolf HP test.

 

[wooderson]

I want to see one of these pistols. In my hand.

 

[chris in va]

Absolutely want to see a JHP test. I was shocked with the Box o' Truth helmet test.

I'm gonna have to find one of these.

 

[DMK]

Thanks JE223 and JohnKSa!

That S&B looks like it would do much more tissue damage that I would have suspected, especially for FMJ.

I'd love to see an HP tested. It would be quite interesting to see how an HP behaves that those velocities.

I'd also pay for a box of .223 Timbs to test!

This round looks like it would be a great candidate for Corbon's Pow'rball.

 

[lee n. field]

I hope some of the guys at CZ are paying attention to the comments on this board.

The CZ-52 hasn't been made for a long time.

 

[Jackal]

Here's an idea for a gun. How about a Taurus revolver in 7.62x25, using moonclips? I think it would be a very cool gun that I would buy in a heartbeat. Heck, even an AR upper. This round needs to be more popular. In my opinion, it is the original .357Sig.