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Open carry "victory", $25K payday.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by wally, May 27, 2014.

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  1. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Yes... especially in the highly charged atmosphere immediately following the theater killings -- in the same town, no less.

    I'm just dumbfounded by these "I got my rights" arguments.
    Carry, but keep it out of sight of the frightened sheep.
    They'll trample you to death.
     
  2. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    I've open carried for years and the sheep that have bleated the loudest have been the conceal carry only people who can't resist the opportunity to tell me they carry their guns concealed and so should I.
     
  3. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    How long should he have waited? A month? A year?
     
  4. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Because guns are baaad and people with guns only have them to do baaad things.

    Only because so few people do it. Not doing it won't help the problem.

    Keep that in mind.
     
  5. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Moderator Emeritus

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    When you have reason to believe that tensions are high and people are nervous or paranoid about something, wisdom says to not do whatever might exacerbate the situation.

    I'm all in favor of open carry being legal, but I really doubt I'd do so in Aurora, Colorado.

    The OC fella could just as easily have had two or three guys do a Flight 93 on him.
     
  6. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Now THAT would be bleeping stupid, and I would hope that they would end up in prison for being so ridiculously stupid. Assuming, of course, they didn't end up in the hospital or the morgue before they had a chance to be arrested and charged. Maybe even shot in the back by a concealed carrier who saw the peaceful open carrier get jumped.
     
  7. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    I'm not believing what I'm listening to here.... :cool:
     
  8. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    I open carry in the theater in my town at least once a month. Nobody bats eye. Maybe they are just used to seeing me and my gun.
     
  9. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    The sad fact is we have to play politics in this country and rubbing salt in a wound isn't a good thing. Yes the guy was totally legal but that doesn't make what he did "right" IMO. People see that kind of action and they could well vote for a gun grabber the next chance they get. It stinks but it's reality. There are plenty of other times to make your point if that's what you want to do. But just like Mutt and Jeff at Chipolte there are better ways of doing things. I'm not putting anyone down but they came off as a couple of kids looking to get their face in the paper. They shouldn't have been posing and grinning and dressing like they were on safari IMO. It's just bad politics. If they wanted to open carry and make a point wear a suit and tie and do it. And don't rub salt in an open wound. People could think the guy was looking for a payday. Maybe he wasn't but it's sure as heck hard to tell from the media and that's the only way we have of getting information. Don't play checkers when the other guy is playing chess.

    Politics rules in this country and we have to win that game or else.
     
  10. XD Fan

    XD Fan Member

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    This is a PR battle. There is no win in open carrying in a theater in Aroura at that time. Let it cool down. No one is listening to this debate and thinking, "Oh, the police had to pay out. Hmmm...now I am more supportive of gun rights,
     
  11. Warp

    Warp Member

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    It is a sad state of affairs when people just assume that somebody not doing anything wrong can be "looking for a payday" under the assumption that the police WILL break the law and the police WILL violate your rights and the police WILL unlawfully arrest you.

    What does that say about the state of our law enforcement?

    There is a big difference between people taking notice of him...people keeping an eye on him...even the theater having the police escort him off the premises or whatever...and ARRESTING him.
     
  12. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Member

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    In a town of 6,000 people, that is probably the case.
     
  13. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...enly-carrying-firearm-into-cinnebarre-theater

    This article would suggest that it wasn't even theater management that called the police. I was eating dinner at a restaurant one night when an officer approached me and asked me to step outside. He hassled me for about 15 minutes about my gun and I finally told him, "Either give me a citation for whatever law you think I am breaking, or I am going back in to finish my dinner."

    Officer said, "Fine, go back inside." He then followed me and got a waitress who wasn't even old enough to serve beer to accompany him while he told me that I was required to leave. So I paid my bill and left.

    The next day I dropped a letter off at the restaurant describing what had happened. When I got home there was a voice message from the manager of the restaurant that stated they were extremely sorry for my experience. Nobody from the restaurant had contacted the police, it must have been another customer. The restaurant had no desire for the police to be there and certainly did not want them removing me from the restaurant, and said the I, my family, my friends and our guns were welcome back at any time.

    I notified the Chief of Police of my town that his officer had no authority to evict me from private property against the wishes of the property owner and that there would be a gathering of armed customers at the restaurant the following Saturday for a luncheon at the invitation of the restaurant and any involvement with the police other than joining us for a social get together would be met with a lawsuit.

    We had a great luncheon that Saturday (about 10 of us, with our holstered handguns and our families), gave a lot of business to the restaurant that day, and the police never showed up

    Even if it was theater management that called the police, it must be an agent of the property owner that asks the customer to leave, and then only if the customer refuses do officers have the authority to detain or arrest. See this theater case that resulted in Alamogordo, New Mexico, paying out $21,000:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/alamogordo-police-pay-21-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit

    http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/gunstuff/legal/St.John v Alamogordo Police Order.pdf
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  14. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    He did not do anything he did not normally do.
    He did not brandish his firearm.
    He did not carry his firearm in a provocative manner.
    He did not carry a long gun.
    He did not carry a "scary" gun (at least, if the picture is accurate).

    I don't think this is anywhere near as bad as OCing an AR-15 on a tactical 3-point sling into a starbucks.
     
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    And I'll wager that in no case had there been a rampage multiple murder during the prior week in a theater nearby.

    Rights don't necessarily make exercising good judgment irrelevant. Although it might be a foreign concept to you, sometimes it's reasonable to show some consideration for others.
     
  16. DAP90

    DAP90 Member

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    I remember when he was arrested. There was a thread then with much the same conversation.

    Whatever your feelings on open carrying are he didn’t break any laws. He didn’t hurt anyone. Does he really need the approval of the masses to engage in behavior that isn't hurting anyone?

    A society shouldn’t push people around because it makes them feel better or because they disapprove. That way madness lies. Something we all should be very aware of given our collective hobbies.
     
  17. Warp

    Warp Member

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    That 'consideration for others' is something I've had people tell me when they claim open carry should be illegal. Some other people just plain don't like guns, don't like seeing guns, and don't like knowing people ever have guns. Out of consideration for these people, open carry in public should be illegal.
     
  18. Mainsail

    Mainsail Member

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    This response has exceeded the point of terminal irresponsibility. It's also completely off topic.

    So if someone were to look like the shooter, your reasoning says they should stay home with the shades drawn to avoid getting arrested or attacked by other theater goers.

    holmesshorthair_1348176494607_142070_ver1.0_320_240.jpg
     
  19. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    This.
     
  20. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    They should at least shave off their mustaches and beards out of consideration of others that might be disturbed by the legally worn mustache and beard.
     
  21. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "When you have reason to believe that tensions are high and people are nervous or paranoid about something, wisdom says to not do whatever might exacerbate the situation."
    Wisdom actually says to be prepared for the consequences of said paranoia/nervousness. Quite honestly, I remember clearly lots of people being fearful of copy-cats for weeks/months afterwards; why would you specifically not be armed if you really thought a do-over was possible in the theatre you visited? Why would you conceal if you didn't care to do so and it was perfectly legal?

    As far as people freaking out, it would solely be due to their connotations of guns with violence, which, btw, an awful large number of gun owners & even gun enthusiasts themselves suffer from. If a lawful activity scares others while doing absolutely no harm to anyone, how is it not the 'others' that are at fault in the scenario? The gun was holstered, the gun was plainly visible (which actually makes it easier to tell what he's doing/not doing with it), and the man was doing nothing notable besides going about his business. Mr. Joker was none of those things, yet somehow that gets lost in the "GUN, GUN, GUN!" freakout. Were the gun hidden, would that have changed the 'threat' he posed? Were the gun hidden, would it be easier for movie-goers to identify a potential 'threat' before he started shooting? Of course not, but we've come to expect people to act irrationally, for some reason, and even try to justify it.

    He did nothing illegal, he hurt no one, and was arrested for standing out and being perceived wrongly as a threat; same logic behind witch burnings.

    "In a town of 6,000 people..."
    Yeah, yeah, people in urban centers can't be expected to act with any sense whatsoever; we get it :rolleyes:

    "So if someone were to look like the shooter, your reasoning says they should stay home with the shades drawn to avoid getting arrested or attacked by other theater goers."
    Precisely. And the Ryder trucking company should have gone out of business after the OK City Bombings. And all people from the middle east should have been detained after 9-11.

    "Rights don't necessarily make exercising good judgment irrelevant."
    True, but they are supposed to give police good enough guidance to understand where their authority ends. I understand the 911 calls; I do not understand the police arresting the man for no cause (I know, I know, we can't expect officers to act with any sense whatsoever when they're excited :rolleyes:)

    TCB
     
  22. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "They should at least shave off their mustaches and beards out of consideration of others that might be disturbed by the legally worn mustache and beard."
    Granted, you don't see the toothbrush mustache/comb-over combo much anymore...

    TCB
     
  23. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    No, he didn't break any laws. And therefore, he should not have been arrested. The police made a mistake doing so, and they have paid $25,000 for that mistake.

    But that also doesn't mean that Mr. Mapes exercised the best judgment by openly carrying a gun at that theater at that time. Sometimes out of respect for our fellow humans it can be better choice to do something we don't have to do, or to forbear from doing something we otherwise could do.

    Mr. Mapes did not have to attend the movies unarmed. He had a CCW.

    No one has said that open carry should be illegal. I'm sure you're familiar with the saying, "There's a time and place for everything." One week after a rampage killing at a nearby threater is probably not best time and place to openly carry a gun into another theater.
     
  24. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    When the ex-cop cop-killer was in LA, there were 2 incidents where the cops opened fire on vehicles that looked kind of like the suspect's vehicle. One it was the same make and model, but slightly different color and had 2 old Asian women in it, the other was a different make and model, different color and had a man of a different race from the suspect in it.

    So should everyone who drives an SUV stay home if the suspect in recent shootings drives an SUV?
     
  25. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Just a few days ago some nut was running people over with his car in California. I bet today people are driving up and down that same street and aren't being hassled by the cops.
     
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