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Open carry "victory", $25K payday.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by wally, May 27, 2014.

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  1. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    Open carry is the current obvious one, but I am not talking about that. OC wasn't on the antis' radar until very recently. The demonization of the law abiding gun owner has been going all out for awhile now. Michael Bane talks about this issue on his podcast; take a look (should be in the high 200's for the episode numbers, maybe 275-325).
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  2. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Seeing regular Joe private citizen open carrying a holstered handgun while going about his (or her) day wins them, slowly but surely.

    Hiding guns and gun ownership and pretending like having a gun is a baaad thing does not help.
     
  3. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Evidence?
     
  4. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Years of personal experience and years of talking and listening to all kinds of people about the issue.

    Also good sense, and general life experience to know that people tend to grow accustomed to things that they are familiar with, while also fearing change, the unexpected, and the unusual.
     
  5. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    In other words, you don't have any actual evidence.

    On the other hand, it has happened in the past that if people do something that's legal but they do it in a way that enough other people find obnoxious, the activity might not stay legal for long.

    • In the late 1960s in California, the Black Panthers openly carrying guns resulted in the open carry of loaded guns being made illegal. And a few years ago, demonstrations involving the open carrying or unloaded guns resulted in that being made illegal.

    • See this post 6 regarding the history of the loss in Florida of the right to openly carry in this thread on another forum.

    • Over the years, in many communities, we have seen many zoning and other laws adopted restricting how you can use your own property. In some places you may not work on your car in your own driveway in view of the public street. In some places you must get design approval of remodeling or landscaping visible to the public. In some communities, you may not park or store large vehicles like boats on trailers or RVs on your property so as to be visible to the public. These sorts of restrictions have in large part been the result of strong enough public sentiment that some things previously lawfully done by private parties on their own land were unseemly or unattractive.
     
  6. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I'm of the opinion that "we shouldn't do it because doing it will make it illegal" means we've made it defacto illegal. When would we exercise that right if we never do for fear of losing it.
     
  7. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    The anti-gun groups have been very successful....maybe we should start using their tactics....but then we would have to stop being considerate and polite and we can't do that.
     
  8. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    If one group acts badly, sarcastically suggesting that another should - isn't really smart. It's just another tantrum or failed attempt to be clever.
     
  9. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    The pendulum of public opinion has been swinging back in our direction for a while now, but some on our side seem bound and determined to stop it by over the top behavior. How many of us think what those guys did at Chipotle was a good move for the 2A? OC is legal here, and I'm glad it is, but not because I ever plan to practice it with an AR at the local quickee mart.

    As for the original thread topic, I think it was stupid that the police arrested him, but I can hardly imagine a more tone deaf move on his part given the time and the location. Wearing a fur coat into the woods during deer season isn't illegal, and if someone shot you it would be their fault, but some of the blame would rest on the guy making the poor wardrobe choice.

    My take on this particular example is that there were plenty of bad decisions all around.
     
  10. Warp

    Warp Member

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    You need to go back and read my post again, and maybe try to understand the differences between what I stated, and those "examples"

    Key phrase:

    "Seeing regular Joe private citizen open carrying a holstered handgun while going about his (or her) day wins them, slowly but surely."
     
  11. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    This is a bad example since California's constitution lacks the right to keep and bear arms. California citizens purchase, use and dispose of firearms at the whim of the legislature. All lawful carry in California may be revoked at any time.

    Florida is also a bad example (http://saf.org/wp-content/uploads/journals/JFPP01.pdf):

    In both cases, the state has the power to control how weapons are carried. Neither of your examples applies to the argument except as how public opinion swayed the legislature to change the law within the limits dictated by that state's constitution. However, other states have far stronger RKBA than Florida and California. Open carry cannot be banned in Virginia without a constitutional amendment; getting that through the legislature so the citizens can vote on it would be a very hard sell.

    Contrary to your examples, in Virginia, open carry was declared to be a right. Concealed carry was declared to be a privilege. The Virginia open carry movement was started to get premption and stop jurisdictions like Arlington from violating the state constitution. The state legislature agreed that people should not be jailed because they crossed an invisible line. It was successful and the counties are now fully aware that they cannot interfere with open carry. We still have to remind them sometimes, but a letter is usually all it takes.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  12. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Exhibit A: An example of what I am talking about
    Andrew-in-store.jpg



    Exhibit B: What Mr Frank Ettin claims is comparable to the above:
    black-panthers-1968-467.jpg


    My opinion is that people are going to have a different reaction to the above, not the same.
     
  13. stonecutter2

    stonecutter2 Member

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    I'd rather have this guy in the theater while i'm watching a show than not. It would have made me feel better seeing a good guy with a gun, rather than scare me in any way.

    Tired of nutjobs running around shooting innocents with impunity. Maybe this guy felt the same.
     
  14. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    It is just as much a matter for law enforcement as wearing white after Labor Day.

    Mike
     
  15. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Yes.

    Now, if the theater didn't want him there, they very well could have asked him to disarm, or to leave, and they could have had LE there 'just in case', or to issue a trespass warning so he can't come back (probably, varies by state perhaps)...you know, private property rights and the right to refuse service and all that...but that's it.
     
  16. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    You have just made a point about the total arbitrariness and total unpredictability of what will become a symbol and what won't in any given situation. Certain breeds of dogs are considered rude in Israel to this day but there were two Israeli Prime Ministers with toothbrush mustaches. It was such a popular central European men's style in the early 20th Century and they saw no reason to change.
     
  17. stonecutter2

    stonecutter2 Member

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    They should exercise good judgment and not drive any cars over that area, it's been less than a week. And if someone speeds, well, they're grounded.
     
  18. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    When an anti-gun group stands up and proclaims within hours of a mass shooting that we must pass gun control laws you won't find a single other anti-gunner pulling on their shirt tails telling them to be quiet and be considerate and let the dust settle first. But one guy goes about his normal everyday routine of quietly carrying a handgun in a holster not "proclaiming" anything and a significant portion of the pro-gun side is pointing at him saying how wrong he is.

    That is why the anti-gun groups have so much power - there are only one or two outcasts in the anti-gun realm (like Bloomberg is becomming) but on our side we look for reasons to proclaim our disagreement with anyone that doesn't just conceal it to cater to a small minority of the population that is going to be offended.
     
  19. stonecutter2

    stonecutter2 Member

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    In my opinion, not really. Proximity might heighten tension, but either way i'm snackin on popcorn and raisinets happier because I know a good guy has my back. Maybe many people don't feel that way, but that's the problem we face.
     
  20. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    I agree with Warp in the difference in reactions shown by his two photos. However, the California legislature controls the purchase, use, and disposal of firearms in the state since there is no right to keep and bear arms in the state constitution. Therefore, the implication that activities similar to that of the Black Panthers will result in a revocation of the RKBA in all states is not correct. Most states will require a constitutional amendment rather than a simple law passed by a hysterical legislature. Such a thing could happen, but the politics behind a constitutional amendment are very different.
     
  21. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    "Seeing regular Joe private citizen open carrying a holstered handgun while going about his (or her) day wins them, slowly but surely."

    Based on newspaper editorials, TV commentators and various website commentaries, that statement is 180 degrees off course.

    Whether or not open carry is or is not a big deal varies with the part of the country. Some areas, nobody cares much, one way or the other. But in those states which don't allow open carry, the overt "See here!" open-carry demonstrations antagonize enough of the voters such that the legislators tend to play safe and vote "Nay" on open-carry bills. It's all about noise level, and the squeaky wheels of the antis are louder.

    Honey and vinegar: Open-carry demonstrations are vinegar. Q: Why do I believe this? A: A half-century of watching the behavior of the Texas legislature on many, many issues. :)
     
  22. Warp

    Warp Member

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    California is its own thing, for the most part.

    Rather...screwed up too, if you ask me. But I guess they like it that way, because that's how they vote and that's what they created.
     
  23. Warp

    Warp Member

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    *Face Palm*

    Key phrase:

    "Seeing regular Joe private citizen open carrying a holstered handgun while going about his (or her) day wins them, slowly but surely."

    [Hint: The implication is that doing so is legal, of course, just like in the original story of this thread]

    I am not talking about doing something illegal. I am not talking about organized demonstrations. I am talking about "regular Joe private citizen open carrying a holstered handgun while going about his (or her) day"

    Why do you keep posting red herrings?
     
  24. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    As I mentioned previously, the demonization of gun owners has been going on for a long time. Open carry is a very easy target because they can claim "fear" and never have to provide supporting evidence. :banghead: After all, were they to follow an open carry group, they wouldn't see people fleeing in panic. It has picked up in recent years and has crossed over from the "mythical bad gun owner" to "all gun owners". They paint us all as "possible domestic terrorists" and "people just waiting to go off." Again, this is nothing new and this attitude is prevalent in our schools.
     
  25. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Last edited: May 28, 2014
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