yesit'sloaded
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I was thinking more along the lines of what could happen when the magic device doesn't work. The batteries in my .38 never go dead.
Opinion on Tazers
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RKBABob
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Good point, yesit'sloaded. I'd imagine what would happen is exactly what would have happened if she didn't have the taser at all... something horrible.
I would hope the Tasers are reasonably reliable in that regard, and that these women have the foresight to check the batteries once in a while (I believe all Tasers have a built in battery guage). Then again, I've suspected some women are carrying a J-frame with 2 toothpicks, a paperclip, and a half a stick of JuicyFruit gum mashed into them at the bottom of their purse.
A .38 would be better, thats for sure... but at least they're doing something. At least they're not attending candlelight vigils, thinking that will make a difference.
yesit'sloaded
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True. I'm just too blessed by being around armed women to comprehend wanting something less effective.
Here's my take: There's a definite need for Tazers as one tool available to police officers going about their daily business. Sometimes, the Tazer is used to hastily. I don't have a problem justifying the use of Tazers in self defense, or to gain control of a threatening person. I do have a big problem when a Tazer or OC spray is used merely to gain compliance from a non-threatening person. The officer using that force has no way of knowing whether the person has an underlying medical condition that can be affected. I personally know of two such people - one has a pacemaker, one has an electrical implant near her spine. Being tased will kill either one of these people like flipping off a light switch. It's easy enough to say, "If you're one of these people with a known medical condition, you'd better behave yourself around cops", but one rebuttal to that is: Accidents happen. So do cases of mistaken identity, or cops serving a no-knock on the wrong address.
The problem is that no matter how tightly you write the rules of use-of-force, there will always be a situation that's not exactly covered by the rulebook - a cop will have to use his own discretion, and if he guesses wrong, or his instincts guide him in the wrong way when it's crunch time, them somebody gets hurt or killed. One thing that will help is more personal relations training for cops. Teach the cops how to gain compliance the old-fashioned way: with their silver tongue.
Until Tase-proof clothing becomes available (Buy it online right here, right now! 10% discount to law enforcement personnel with letter on letterhead of your superiors, not sold to known felons or anyone that's ever been judged mentally defective, here, fill out this 4473, wait for your background check, you're all clear, here's your receipt, have a nice day, NEXT!) we'll all have to be aware of the implications of use of force, both physical AND non-physical.
The problem is that no matter how tightly you write the rules of use-of-force, there will always be a situation that's not exactly covered by the rulebook - a cop will have to use his own discretion, and if he guesses wrong, or his instincts guide him in the wrong way when it's crunch time, them somebody gets hurt or killed. One thing that will help is more personal relations training for cops. Teach the cops how to gain compliance the old-fashioned way: with their silver tongue.
Until Tase-proof clothing becomes available (Buy it online right here, right now! 10% discount to law enforcement personnel with letter on letterhead of your superiors, not sold to known felons or anyone that's ever been judged mentally defective, here, fill out this 4473, wait for your background check, you're all clear, here's your receipt, have a nice day, NEXT!) we'll all have to be aware of the implications of use of force, both physical AND non-physical.
Waste of time! Nearly every time a TASAR is used by the Police, there is some form of criticism related to it. Some older woman refused the order of a policewoman, tazered. Police criticized. A emotionally disturbed kid had a big piece of glass to his throat, the TASAR probably saved his life, yet the police were criticized. Another disturbed young man has tried to kill his mother and when police arrived, he rushed them with a knife and was shot to death, then the police were criticized because they didn't use a TASAR. AND, OF COURSE! The Brady Campaign is trying to prevent sales of TASARs to civilians, just because. They are probably doing us a favor, I could see a TASAR use by a civilian as an instant lawsuit, and its availablity as a further reason to keep guns from civilians, so either way, they win.
TonyB
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The Polish guy dying..not funny and sad..the college student being tazedI find really,really funny......of course if I was cop I'd taze everyone
in the old days they'd have thumped him w/ a sap,he'd have a bump on his melon for a few weeks.....now that would be not PC......so we have tazers and people die.Bottom line,when the cop says to do something...do it...call a lawyer later for sure if your rights have been violated,but unless you want to be tazed,or worse,just do what they say......
in the old days they'd have thumped him w/ a sap,he'd have a bump on his melon for a few weeks.....now that would be not PC......so we have tazers and people die.Bottom line,when the cop says to do something...do it...call a lawyer later for sure if your rights have been violated,but unless you want to be tazed,or worse,just do what they say......
Gunnerpalace
Member
Brief off topic The guy at USF was being annoying for example if I was up there yelling "Carmel corn is better than popcorn" they would tase me too because I was being disruptive and not being quite.
As for "taser parties" I see this as a partly good thing at least women are opening up to self defense maybe even CCW's, now there is an idea a CCW party for the ladies who is in on that?
As for "taser parties" I see this as a partly good thing at least women are opening up to self defense maybe even CCW's, now there is an idea a CCW party for the ladies who is in on that?
yesit'sloaded
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Carmel corn sucks, popcorn is better. I've been shocked by a stun gun before, and if I was a gangbanger intent on robbing someone it would just piss me off enough to actually want to hurt them. I understand that a stun gun and a tazer are different, but the idea is the same. What happens when the tazer is used in self defense? You can't exactly keep tazing them forever. If you run away they might get right back up, chase you down, and rape or rob you anyway.
I've been shocked by a stun gun before, and if I was a gangbanger intent on robbing someone it would just piss me off enough to actually want to hurt them. I understand that a stun gun and a tazer are different, but the idea is the same. What happens when the tazer is used in self defense? You can't exactly keep tazing them forever. If you run away they might get right back up, chase you down, and rape or rob you anyway.Some of you are missing the point. It not easy to cuff someone that doesn't want to be cuffed. Try it some time. Most of the time getting tasered beats get beat with a stick. The University of FL. guy needed to be tased. He was resisting and needed to be removed. OTOH from what I could see from the video, the Mounties went a little quickly to the taser.
What would you be saying right now if he took a couple wacks from a baton? What actions are justifiable to you to make him comply? Would you be ok with it if he wound up with bruises or other actual physical injuries from having to apply real force?
Mr. Designer
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They should have waterboarded the guy. At least he would still be alive.
oldcop1971
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Let's see.....
"Four officers and half-way handcuffed..."
That means the suspect has four hand guns within easy reach. It means he has an impact weapon attached to one of his arms. The officers don't know if they are dealing with a kid who wants a Youtube video or someone with a mental problem.
If you've been involved in wrestling as a sport, you might have an idea of how hard it is to make someone physically move if his muscles are tensed up and resisting. If you have'nt, take my word for it. I've seen two or three officers trying to pull a combative suspect's arms out from under him and failing until you apply some type of pain compliance. You have NO idea of the dynamics of the real world of policing. YOU might comply with the police verbal commands, that does'nt mean everyone would. There's a lot of gray in the real world, not everything is black and white.
oc71
"Four officers and half-way handcuffed..."
That means the suspect has four hand guns within easy reach. It means he has an impact weapon attached to one of his arms. The officers don't know if they are dealing with a kid who wants a Youtube video or someone with a mental problem.
If you've been involved in wrestling as a sport, you might have an idea of how hard it is to make someone physically move if his muscles are tensed up and resisting. If you have'nt, take my word for it. I've seen two or three officers trying to pull a combative suspect's arms out from under him and failing until you apply some type of pain compliance. You have NO idea of the dynamics of the real world of policing. YOU might comply with the police verbal commands, that does'nt mean everyone would. There's a lot of gray in the real world, not everything is black and white.
oc71
yesit'sloaded
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I'd rather this move more towards the question of whether or not LEOs are being informed that these are lethal weapons. The Tazer website itself uses non lethal several times. I'd rather this not turn into a cop bashing thread. Let's focus on what the actual training teaches and how these things are marketed.
Phil DeGraves
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"I was thinking more along the lines of guy with a knife. You don't want to get physical and yet you really don't want to shoot him unless he runs at you so you taze him."
A knife is deadly force. The appropriate tool for deadly force is one that delivers deadly force, ie. a firearm. A TASER is to prevent injuries to police officers by non-compliant subjects. End of story. Most of the "deaths by TASER" were in fact death by drugs or death by exertion or death by asphyxia, and would have occurred regardless if the TASER had been used at all. When people are on drugs they act like idiots and attract the attention of police. They are already on their way to dying. They fight the police. The police use TASER or OC or physical force. The bad guy dies because the levels of drugs poisoned him or because he is overweight (look at the statistics of death in custody; 85-90% are obese) and his heart could not handle the exertion. Obesity is a contributing factor to positional asphyxia as well.
A knife is deadly force. The appropriate tool for deadly force is one that delivers deadly force, ie. a firearm. A TASER is to prevent injuries to police officers by non-compliant subjects. End of story. Most of the "deaths by TASER" were in fact death by drugs or death by exertion or death by asphyxia, and would have occurred regardless if the TASER had been used at all. When people are on drugs they act like idiots and attract the attention of police. They are already on their way to dying. They fight the police. The police use TASER or OC or physical force. The bad guy dies because the levels of drugs poisoned him or because he is overweight (look at the statistics of death in custody; 85-90% are obese) and his heart could not handle the exertion. Obesity is a contributing factor to positional asphyxia as well.
SSN Vet
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this from a very pro-LEO poster.
IMO, they're being over used.
Just because a strong and healthy adult male LEO can take a planned tase during training and not be permanently harmed.....doesn't mean that every civilian can.
undiagnosed heart problem....weak physical constitution...panic/excited delerium......these are certain to pop up with a certain frequency, yet are not predictable. THE PROBLEM IS that these pre-existing conditions turn the taser into deadly force.
It seems pretty clear to me that LEOs are advocating for the taser as a "sub-deadly force" tool (which may argualbly save some lives by preventing the need to employ deadly force). BUT, with seeming regularity...it proves to be a deadly force weapon.
So what I see to be the important question is .... Are LEO agencies deploying a "deadly force" weapon (the taser) with policies and guidelines that don't meet the use of deadly force litmus test.
I sure the heck hope my wife is never tased because she receives a verbal order from a police officer who doesn't know that she's 'deaf as a door nail'....because she also has other health issues and it may just kill her.
And just as an oh buy the way....humans are inharently lazy people imho. It sure looks like the FOUR LEOs at the airport in Canada could have put that poor Polish guy on the ground in a submission hold without even breaking a sweat......but the taser is just so easy. The typical response to these taser deaths seems to be "well the officers followed department policy", as if that was on par with the Constitution of the United States. My Lord, they killed a man! who's biggest offense seems to be that he was lost in the airport, didn't speak the native tougue and was afraid of the police.
IMO, they're being over used.
Just because a strong and healthy adult male LEO can take a planned tase during training and not be permanently harmed.....doesn't mean that every civilian can.
undiagnosed heart problem....weak physical constitution...panic/excited delerium......these are certain to pop up with a certain frequency, yet are not predictable. THE PROBLEM IS that these pre-existing conditions turn the taser into deadly force.
It seems pretty clear to me that LEOs are advocating for the taser as a "sub-deadly force" tool (which may argualbly save some lives by preventing the need to employ deadly force). BUT, with seeming regularity...it proves to be a deadly force weapon.
So what I see to be the important question is .... Are LEO agencies deploying a "deadly force" weapon (the taser) with policies and guidelines that don't meet the use of deadly force litmus test.
I sure the heck hope my wife is never tased because she receives a verbal order from a police officer who doesn't know that she's 'deaf as a door nail'....because she also has other health issues and it may just kill her.
And just as an oh buy the way....humans are inharently lazy people imho. It sure looks like the FOUR LEOs at the airport in Canada could have put that poor Polish guy on the ground in a submission hold without even breaking a sweat......but the taser is just so easy. The typical response to these taser deaths seems to be "well the officers followed department policy", as if that was on par with the Constitution of the United States. My Lord, they killed a man! who's biggest offense seems to be that he was lost in the airport, didn't speak the native tougue and was afraid of the police.
"That means the suspect has four hand guns within easy reach. It means he has an impact weapon attached to one of his arms. The officers don't know if they are dealing with a kid who wants a Youtube video or someone with a mental problem.
If you've been involved in wrestling as a sport, you might have an idea of how hard it is to make someone physically move if his muscles are tensed up and resisting. If you have'nt, take my word for it"
Wrestled in HS so I know what its like... but cops wrestle people to the ground everyday and we never hear about it... plus they had a big black cop that picked him up and carried him to where he was taken to the ground... the door is 10 feet from there why didnt he just take him outside? It would have shut him up b/c there was no one there to listen. NOW if they would have tasered him before he was on the ground half way handcuffed I would have found that reasonable, but they already had control over him even if both hands werent fully cuffed. And theres a reason they make class 3 retention holsters. They could have handled the situation much better, anyone who thinks that is wrong should have their head examined. no disrespect.
"What would you be saying right now if he took a couple wacks from a baton? What actions are justifiable to you to make him comply? Would you be ok with it if he wound up with bruises or other actual physical injuries from having to apply real force?"
I'd be saying that it probably wouldnt have made national headlines and we wouldnt be talking about this right now so it might have been a better idea.
If you've been involved in wrestling as a sport, you might have an idea of how hard it is to make someone physically move if his muscles are tensed up and resisting. If you have'nt, take my word for it"
Wrestled in HS so I know what its like... but cops wrestle people to the ground everyday and we never hear about it... plus they had a big black cop that picked him up and carried him to where he was taken to the ground... the door is 10 feet from there why didnt he just take him outside? It would have shut him up b/c there was no one there to listen. NOW if they would have tasered him before he was on the ground half way handcuffed I would have found that reasonable, but they already had control over him even if both hands werent fully cuffed. And theres a reason they make class 3 retention holsters. They could have handled the situation much better, anyone who thinks that is wrong should have their head examined. no disrespect.
"What would you be saying right now if he took a couple wacks from a baton? What actions are justifiable to you to make him comply? Would you be ok with it if he wound up with bruises or other actual physical injuries from having to apply real force?"
I'd be saying that it probably wouldnt have made national headlines and we wouldnt be talking about this right now so it might have been a better idea.
SSN Vet
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I call B.S. on this comment....
just because a person has an undiagnosed heart condition doesn't mean that the officer who shocked them with a taser didn't cause there death. Lot's of people live to 60+ years old with undiagnosed heart conditions and die of other "natural" causes.
There are bad people out there and among them are bad cops. Bad cops do bad things, just like other bad people do.
I am inclined to think it is better for a cop to use a taser on someone who is violent but not an imminent threat, then to use some of the other methods available to cops to deal with such a case.
What I find offensive is that a few cops enjoy the taser way too much. You can see they are having a good time making someone twitch. Those cops need to find other employment. I suspect those same cops probably like to knock heads as well.
I also think it is being used way to often as a means of street justice. There was a case not long ago where a cop shot a guy who was up in a tree with a taser. No way was the guy dangerous to anyone. He was just pissing off the cop, who decided to make the guy pay.
I am inclined to think it is better for a cop to use a taser on someone who is violent but not an imminent threat, then to use some of the other methods available to cops to deal with such a case.
What I find offensive is that a few cops enjoy the taser way too much. You can see they are having a good time making someone twitch. Those cops need to find other employment. I suspect those same cops probably like to knock heads as well.
I also think it is being used way to often as a means of street justice. There was a case not long ago where a cop shot a guy who was up in a tree with a taser. No way was the guy dangerous to anyone. He was just pissing off the cop, who decided to make the guy pay.
i think the tazers should be taken away, there are too many cops that just can't wait to use them, i was watching cops show on TV last week and a woman cop was begging the drunk to move so she could taze him, i told my wife where i would like to stick the tazor on her and hit the switch.
yesit'sloaded
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So is it an issue of officers abusing the Tazers or training not emphasizing the seriousness of the device. If I had a device that I was told by the powers that be that it was harmless and allowed me to instantly get compliance I think I would use it in more situations than if I was told it was not as dangerous as shooting a person but still had a risk.
Not only that it is blatant BS.
But they might well have died from the effects of OC or a baton too. Or even just being cuffed (as another poster mentioned).
I don't blame the cop if someone is legitimately taken into custody in an appropriate way and subsequently dies from it. That just happens sometimes, and there is little you can do about it. I do blame the cop when someone dies when there was no real reason to arrest them in the first place, and a fair number of these cases are pretty marginal in that respect.
Police should not be allowed to carry TASERS. While there are a handfull of incidents that a TASER probably saved someone's life, the possibility of abuse is way too high. Right now an officer can TASER pretty much anyone for any reason and there are no problems.
Another problem with TASERs is the price. I was looking into buying one to carry on campus (loophole in campus laws... knives and firearms against rules, but not TASERS
), but I could buy three Glocks for the price of a TASER, and the Glocks would be much more effective. I just can't justify paying over a grand for an electric circuit.
Also it is probably worse for females to be carrying TASERS. You can't just zap somebody and they are out for awhile (unless, in rare cases, it kills them). As soon as the current is disrupted the person zapped can just get back up and chase after you. If you used a TASER you would also have to be able to physically subdue the person you are zapping. Right now, I bet most of these females at the TASER parties would shoot a guy (if they were able to draw in time, and assuming the TASER actually effected them), after the batteries die in 20 seconds or so the guy just gets back up.... really freaking pissed now.... and goes ahead with whatever criminal act he was attempting to commit, cept it's worse now that he's pissed.
Another problem with TASERs is the price. I was looking into buying one to carry on campus (loophole in campus laws... knives and firearms against rules, but not TASERS
), but I could buy three Glocks for the price of a TASER, and the Glocks would be much more effective. I just can't justify paying over a grand for an electric circuit.Also it is probably worse for females to be carrying TASERS. You can't just zap somebody and they are out for awhile (unless, in rare cases, it kills them). As soon as the current is disrupted the person zapped can just get back up and chase after you. If you used a TASER you would also have to be able to physically subdue the person you are zapping. Right now, I bet most of these females at the TASER parties would shoot a guy (if they were able to draw in time, and assuming the TASER actually effected them), after the batteries die in 20 seconds or so the guy just gets back up.... really freaking pissed now.... and goes ahead with whatever criminal act he was attempting to commit, cept it's worse now that he's pissed.
One of the problems with female cops is that they are physically less imposing. They almost have to play at being tough to get the "respect" they think is due them as a copper.
She may already have been tased. As I understand it, most departments require you to get tased as part of the training.
It is hard to know the context of a ten second blurb on Cops though. Could be he was just mouthing off, or could be he physically resisted in some way. If he was just mouthing off, she was way out of line. If he had been resisting, she is still way out of line, but it is more understandable. Once a suspect is in custody, and well secured, and no longer dangerous, threatening the suspect with additional use of force without good cause is abhorrent, but probably very common.
I don't recall anywhere the SCOTUS ruling that being rude is sufficient grounds for cops to use force, but some cops feel it is their right to do so.
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