Opinion on Tazers

[mikec]

No weapon is perfect IF the training or operator is sub-par.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

No weapon is perfect IF the training or operator is sub-par.

Like when the officer grabs his/her sidearm thinking it's the taser. "BANG! Oops, my bad"
I'm sure it's a great tool and has saved lives. There do seem to be instances where it's used a little prematurely though. If you are about to go hand-to-hand with someone then sure. If someone has a weapon, sure (although I think I'd draw my weapon in that case). If someone doesn't sit down on the curb or walk away after you've asked them once, and hasn't exhibited any violence thus far, that's a little less clear-cut. That can go along with an attitude of "you aren't talking this out with me, you will do what I tell you without question or else".

 

[ceetee]

He told me that it was the most painful 5 seconds of his life, and would not do it again if he had to in order to carry one. He further stated that he has used it 20 times in the past 3 years, and there has never been an instance of failure to comply after dispaching a subject with the taser.

Good Lord... what did he do to gain their compliance BEFORE he was issued lightning-in-a-bottle? Either he's been having quite a run of bad luck, or he has absolutely zero people-skills...

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Another dead one.

CNN) -- Friends and family identified the 20-year-old Frederick, Maryland, man who died after police used a Taser stun gun on him Sunday morning, according to a local television station.

Amnesty International blames dozens of deaths on police use of stun guns.

The man, who friends and family identified as Jarrel Gray, was involved in a fight at an apartment complex about 5 a.m. Sunday, police said. Authorities have not released Gray's name.

"I haven't heard anything except that he's gone," Troy Thomas told WJLA-TV. Thomas, who said he was Gray's uncle, told the television station, "I lost my best friend."

Cassandra Rollings, a friend of the family, appeared at the apartment complex where Gray died, holding a large photo of the young man wearing a tie. Gray was a "very good kid," Rollings said.

Deputies responded Sunday morning to a report of a fight at an apartment complex and found four people in a scuffle, Cpl. Jennifer Bailey of the Frederick County Sheriff's Office said Sunday.

Eric Cargenas, a man who lives in the apartment complex and said he saw the fight, told WJLA that two people started fighting after a yelling match.

A deputy used a Taser on Gray, who fell unconscious, Bailey said. He was taken to Frederick Memorial Hospital where he was pronounced dead.

His body was taken to the medical examiner's office in Baltimore for an autopsy. The results of some tests could take several weeks, according to an office spokeswoman.

Baltimore is about 50 miles east of Frederick.

The sheriff's office has not publicly identified the deputy who allegedly used the Taser, but Bailey said the deputy was placed on administrative leave with pay while authorities investigate the incident.

Since June 2001, more than 150 people have died in the United States after being subdued with stun guns, according to Amnesty International, which has called for police departments to suspend use of the devices pending study of their possible risks.

More than 7,000 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement agencies use the devices, Amnesty says.

Recent deaths involving Taser devices have received much publicity. Last month, a police officer at Vancouver International Airport in British Columbia, Canada, used a Taser gun on a 40-year-old man making his first airplane trip outside Poland. He died.

In a statement released Friday, Taser International cited the Vancouver case and said it "appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically, medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical discharge of the Taser."

A bystander's video of the October 14 incident in Vancouver shows the victim continuing to struggle after being shot with the device.

Taser International said on its Web site that the struggle "is proof that the Taser device was not the cause of his death." Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current would have caused immediate death, the company said.

"We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the Taser device and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death before completion of the investigation," said Tom Smith, the company's founder and chairman of the board.

But Amnesty International, noting that coroners have determined Tasers were a contributing factor in more than 30 deaths, said such a link cannot be ruled out.

The devices use compressed nitrogen to shoot two probes -- connected to the device by wire -- up to 35 feet at speeds exceeding 100 mph.

An electrical signal transmitted through the wires contacts the body or clothing, "resulting in an immediate loss of the person's neuromuscular control and the ability to perform coordinated action for the duration of the impulse," according to the company.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/19/taser.death/index.html

 

[ilbob]

cops roll up on four people fighting in a parking lot and tase one of them. no big surprise.

some people occasionally die after being tased. also not a big surprise.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

It's almost like these people are trying to help me prove my point. New one. He had a ND with a tazer while it just happened to be aimed at a guy.

TINLEY PARK, Ill. (STNG) -- The owner of a Tinley Park pizza joint is seeking $2 million in damages from the village and a Tinley Park police officer who allegedly Tasered him this summer, sending the restaurant owner into convulsions and causing him to bite off a piece of his tongue.

Alexander Mendez, who with his wife owns Guardi's Pizza and Catering, 16711 S. 80th Ave., filed a lawsuit Thursday in the federal court. The couple said Officer Joseph Vega shot Mendez in the head and shoulders with a Taser gun as part of a failed prank last June.

Police Chief Michael O'Connell referred questions about the incident to village administration. Mayor Ed Zabrocki said the Taser shot was an accident and all Taser guns were recalled after the incident.

Vega was disciplined for taking the Taser gun out of his holster, Zabrocki said. Zabrocki said attorneys advised him not to provide any more details.

According to the lawsuit, about 9 p.m. June 15, Vega came to Guardi's and ordered pasta salad. When Mendez walked into the cooler to get the food, Vega asked Mendez's wife if she wanted to see Vega scare her husband. She said "no," according to court documents.

Then, Vega allegedly pointed the gun at Mendez's head and fired, causing the prongs to stick to Mendez's right temple and collarbone. Mendez went into convulsions and later became unconscious. He also bit off a piece of his tongue, the lawsuit said.

Vega is accused of immediately removing the Taser prongs, which caused Mendez to bleed profusely. Vega then called for back-up, and a supervisor and two detectives showed up and confiscated bloody towels, Mendez's bloody glasses, the Taser prongs and the video surveillance equipment in the restaurant, the lawsuit claims.

Reading a prepared statement, Zabrocki said Vega was conducting a routine check on the business when he noticed his Taser safety deactivated. While resecuring it, the Taser accidentally discharged, striking Mendez in the head and chest and knocking him to the ground, Zabrocki said.

Mendez was sent to a local hospital, treated for his injuries and released the next day, Zabrocki said.

Vega "suffered a stress reaction" and was sent to the hospital and released, the mayor said.


http://www.wbbm780.com/Tinley-Park--Cop-Sued-For-Taser-Shooting/1219787


Police investigated the incident, recalled all Tasers issued to officers and sent the devices to Taser International Incorporated in Scottsdale, Ariz., to test for defects, Zabrocki said. All Tasers were returned certified and approved for continued use, he said.

All 79 of Tinley Park's police officers have a Taser gun, the mayor said.

Zabrocki said he could not comment on evidence collected at the scene.

Mendez and his wife continue to suffer physical and emotional pain and have lost income because of the incident, the lawsuit alleges. They could not be reached for comment.

A trial date has not been scheduled for the case

 

[yesit'sloaded]

The question on hand is whether it is bad training or officer abuse, and why are they being advertised as NONLETHAL.

 

[joab]

I can't be the only one that remembers all the hoopla over choke holds killing people
I know I am not the only one that remembers the allegations of pepper spray killing people?

 

[ilbob]

I can't be the only one that remembers all the hoopla over choke holds killing people
I know I am not the only one that remembers the allegations of pepper spray killing people?

yelling might be fatal too.

i think the only issue that matters is if the use was appropriate given the situation. many of us seem inclined toward less use of force, rather than more. cops, for maybe obvious reason, perhaps feel differently about it.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Did any of you read their website? I'll post it again.

Tazer Weapons aka TASER® Weapons fire 50,000 Volts up to 15 feet, with more stopping power than a .357 Magnum. Absolutely the best non-lethal protection for your home, business and auto. M18 Tazers provide the ultimate EMD TASER® Weapon technology for law enforcement and civilian personal protection.

http://www.tazers.com/
They are claiming that they are NON lethal, which is a blatant lie. They are wide open to a huge lawsuit against them and every LEO that has used one to restrain and accidentally killed someone.

 

[Erik]

No they aren't, because.... well, I already posted that. Of hundreds of thousands of a Tasing a few have died regardless of why. As apposed to the altenatives, which involve more injury and death. That's non-lethal by definition, folks.

 

[1911 guy]

Tasers are a useful tool.

So is a hammer, a wrench or a tire pump. Depends on what you're trying to do. Being misused doesn't make Tasers bad or anything. Just a potentially useful tool being misused.

Here in Ohio, there have been several incidents lately of officers zapping folks when not justified. Some have sued, one died, some just went quietly to jail after the incident.

The issue at hand is one of training (or lack of it), and understanding of the equipment. Tasers are designed to be an alternative to shooting someone. Nothing more, nothing less. If you wouldn't crack their skull with a baton or hole them with a sidearm, don't taze them. Lack of training and understanding has caused overuse. Higher use results in a higher number of Bad Things.

Cop: Stop that.
Me: No!
Cop attempts to physically stop me.
I resist.
Cop is now permitted to thump or tase me.

-NOT-
ZZZAAAAPPP
Stop that!

 

[saboteur]

A lot of misconceptions out there about Tasers:

Many agencies, mine included, require there to be a known threat of a physical confrontation (other than "passive" resistance, i.e. sitting there or holding on to a steering wheel). I'm sure some have more lax requirements, such as simply non-compliance with verbal commands. That is lazy. They should just peel them off, if they start fighting then they can get Tased.

Taser has never been positively linked to a death. Most of the people who die are on drugs and/or in a state of "Excited Delirium", which is not good for the body. I have seen a meth-user in excited delirium, the guy ended up almost expiring all on his own, and had to be saved by EMTs. A lot of these people acing crazy are actually already in the throes of death, be it from drugs, mental illness, physiological illness, or whatever.

I have been Tased, for five seconds, and it did what it was supposed to do...it hurt and incapacitated me. There are thousands and thousands of old, unhealthy cops who have voluntarily been Tased with zero deaths.

If you think you are at risk for dying from a Taser, don't do anything stupid that will get you Tased.

No weapon is EVER the be all end all.

 

[ceetee]

The biggest problem that I see is that instead of being used as another tool to help cops save lives, they're being used any time the officer decides the person they're interacting with is being non-compliant.

As in, "Stop talking on that cell phone."

"Why?"

ZZZZZZZZAP

Just like the case where that cop has used his Taser "20 times in the past three years"... I still want to know how he gained complinace before he got the shock box...

 

[saboteur]

Also

Sometimes people just up and die in the jail because they over-dose on drugs prior to being arrested. If we had Tased these people first the media and their families, claiming they were angels and model citizens, would be blaming the Taser...and I believe Yesit'sloaded would by buying into it.

DO not buy into the lawsuits and media hype. Sure...there are some blatant misuses of Taser that are embarassing for LEO, i.e. Tasing a lady multiple times who is only verbally non-compliant does seem lazy and overkill to me.

 

[slabuda]

If you've been involved in wrestling as a sport, you might have an idea of how hard it is to make someone physically move if his muscles are tensed up and resisting. If you have'nt, take my word for it.

I am proof of that. In one of my martial arts classes we had a "free for all" grappling game. 12-14 people back to back last one standing wins. I had 4-6 people on me at anyone time. One trying to do an ankle lock another trying an arm bar all trying to get me to tap out. I was the 3rd person left and even tapped out a couple of people while they were all on top of me.
Now I am a very small fella 5'2" and nothing but bone and muscle as I weigh less than 130 lbs. I

f I could resist that many average sized people that are trained in compliance techniques what would a (possibly) psychotic college student be capable of. Did the police know his mental state? Could he have gotten control of one of their weapons? until the threat/un cooperative suspect is contained THEY ARE ALWAYS a threat.

So should this kid have been tasered? More than possibly, did he deserve it? Most certainly. You resist and then complain you got taken down/arrested? Thats like getting mad at your parents for not listening to them when they say dont touch the stove and you burn yourself.

 

[mikec]

Many agencies, mine included, require there to be a known threat of a physical confrontation (other than "passive" resistance, i.e. sitting there or holding on to a steering wheel). I'm sure some have more lax requirements, such as simply non-compliance with verbal commands. That is lazy. They should just peel them off, if they start fighting then they can get Tased.

What happens when you get a marginal officer with lax usage standards? Admit it, there are some humans wearing the same uniform you do that should not be in that uniform.

If you think you are at risk for dying from a Taser, don't do anything stupid that will get you Tased.

Unfortunately people sometimes are not fully rational when they deal with an officer.

 

[saboteur]

Of course there are incompetent people in all positions of life. But I was referring to departmental policies on using the Taser for aggressive resistance vs. passive resistance. If an department allows Taser use for passive resistance than any problems that arise out of that should be directed at the department. If an officer uses the Taser out of the guidelines, most departments will be the first to step up and discipline the officer, if not, then lawyers and media play a role.

Again, aside from the usual amount of bad people/bad decisions in life, this issue is blown out of proportion by the media and the questionable people who made a poor decision and didn't like the consequences.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

taser or baton i'll take taser and the choke holds croaked a lotta folks

 

[ilbob]

taser or baton i'll take taser

I'm inclined to agree, if those are the only choices.

Most of the people who get tased probably need it. A fair number of the more publicized cases appear to be doing nothing other than being obnoxious. I question the need in such cases.

 

[Oohrah]

Like pepper, they are not 100% effective. Bad guy have learned if
hit a roll will pull out the darts. Thick clothing may prevent dart contact.
Druggies and mental problem people can drain your batteries with no effect.
Normal conditions, they don't get a chance to say Don't tase me bro. They
do hurt !!!!

 

[GEM]

yesit'sloaded - you seem fixated on that 'non-lethal' usage in the ad. If it said 'less likely to cause a hole through which you would bleed to death' or 'less likely to turn significant parts of your CNS into jelly, such that you die', would you be happy?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

There is one thing that some people seem to always overlook when they make this argument: When police officers go to physically arrest any obviously non-complaint person, someone is going to get hurt. The suspect, or the arresting officers. Just because there isn't an electrical zapping sound, doesn't mean there isn't a lot of force involved. A close quarters physical altercation is often times the worst thing an officer can become involved in. I've never witnessed an across the room gun snatching ala Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Subduing at range saves lives, on both sides of the equation.

The problem is that too often officers armed with Tasers aren't willing to spend any time discussing a situation with the other party. They seem to assume that because they have been dispatched, they MUST make an arrest. When the "subject" (isn't that an interesting word?) tries to explain that he/she isn't breaking any laws, and only wants ___, the typical police response is to unilaterally escalate the situation by using "command voice" to demand instant compliance with their instructions, not matter how unrelated said instructions might be to the instant circumstances. So after ratcheting up the decibel level of the command voice a couple of times and not achieving the expected unquestioning compliance -- they simply taser the poor "subject" rather than try to figure out just what's going on.

 

[esmith]

"Don't taze me, bro!" Heh, i don't care if people get tazed, if they are breaking the law to a certain extent, resisting arrest, or causing one harm i couldn't care less.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Moral of the story: Take away our "less than lethal" weapon all you want, we'll still have the lethal ones. Officers like going home at the end of the day, it's your choice how we do it.

Ya know, I'd be willing to bet a nickel that Polish guy on his way to visit his mother would have liked to go home, too. Only now he can't, 'cause he be DEAD.

Like it or not, Click, being a police officer is a potentially dangerous profession. If you think liking to go home at the end of the day is justification for LEOs to violate the law and the Constitution, and kill innocent people "by accident," I respectfully suggest that you belong in a different line of work.