opinions about Massad Ayoob

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I have taken two courses from Ayoob. I consider the money well spent.

I intend to take LFI-1 again.

I met some prominent attorneys in his classes so i give Ayoob's opinions on self-defense law a lot of weight. Ayoob is mentioned a lot in Roy Black's book.
 
Do Not...

look for the LFI schedule at Lethal Force Institute

And if an occasional but forceful use of the F word bothers you, do NOT take any of his classes. Go to Front Sight or someplace. I've never heard anyone say that Piazza uses bad language.

Personally, I don't think I'm better than anyone, so no one's language or sense of humor offends me.
 
I have to agree with Jeff White on this one, these claims are more than just a little incredible to me. Your posts appear to contain a fairly intense dislike of Ayoob. What you are asserting does not make sense.

Ayoob is an extremely conscientious gun handler, for one. I have seen him handle a loaded weapon in various settings (training, competition, etc), but never in an unsafe fashion. As for your statement about Ayoob "looking for a gunfight", I find this to be totally unbelievable. This guy's father, and grandfather, both had to take a life in self-defense in their lifetimes. A prominent part of the LFI-I classroom session finds Ayoob relating these facts, and his fervent desire to never be put in that position, as the guiding factors in his selection of his life's vocation! Do you expect me to believe that a guy with his history, training, and body of work is actually looking for a gunfight?
I'm going to have to agree. That really doesn't sound like something he would do, and ditto for the "want to get into a shooting" type of thing. My dealings with him have indicated to me that he does not want to get into a shooting, and he has certainly had many opportunities to do so--and come out smelling like a rose from the legal side of things.

The fact that he basically makes his living teaching people why getting into a gunfight is a bad thing--a losing proposition all around--is beside the point.
 
Massad Ayoob

I took LFI-1 in 2000, and Streefire Rifle and a Class on investigating officer involved shootings in 2003. I've been reading Ayoob's articles since about 1978 (back then he did a lot of writing for Law & Order Magazine, which was where I first encountered him) and I think I've read all his books. I hope to take LFI -2 later this year.

How he comes across in person seems to depend a little bit on the nature of the group. At LFI-1 he was funny and told jokes on himself and was very honest about the actuality and the limitations of his police experience (having been part time in little towns since the early 1970s -- the vast majority of his actual street police work seems to have occurred before he founded LFI about 1980 or so). At the OIS class he seemed on edge teaching cops and it seemed like he was waiting for somebody to challenge him on different topics, though nobody did. At the rifle class he did a good job of explaining some of the unusual variations in technique that he advocates, but we did have a couple of students in the class (males) who acted like groupies around a rock star, and I found that to be VERY irritating.

In lecture to a large group, when he projects his voice, the result is very irritating to some people. (I don't know how to describe it, but I once had a female officer on my department make the same observation about me!) In relating to a smaller group over coffee 1st thing in the morning (or over a Rolling Rock after class) he's much more informal and relaxed.

Some other posters on this topic have mentioned that Ayoob may exaggerate the possibility of civil action or criminal charges in response to a self-defense shooting. The political and social reality of the panhandle of Texas is not the same as the climate in the north-east or on the west coast. I believe that Ayoob stresses this so much in order to get people thinking through these issues BEFORE HAND. (It's amazing how often I still here guys at the gun club say things like "If I ever catch a burglar, I'm just going to shoot him and drag him outside" or "If I ever have to shoot a guy, I'm going to put a knife in his hand" or some other BS. I discovered long ago that there is no point in trying to correct people like this. They've worked hard all their life to be ignorant, and they're proud of it . . . ) Part of self defense is surviving the legal consequences afterwards. If you live in a part of the country where that is probably NOT a concern, congratulations, but that is not the reality for most of us., and most private citizens aren't really familiar with all the different issues or the dynamics of confrontation.

One thing I like about Ayoob's firearms instruction is that he is not dogmatic about anything. If there is a valid alternate technique for stance or some aspect of weapons manipulation, he can probably explain it and teach it. He himself favors a modified Isoceles stance but also teaches the Chapman and the Weaver, and a variety of different kneeling and prone positions. I also did find that he was very good at coaching new shooters or those experiencing problems.

Ayoob did not use a particularly large amount of profanity in any of the classes I have attended, but I've been a cop & a soldier my whole adult life and spend some time around stock car drivers when off duty, so maybe I just screen obscenity out and don't notice it . . .

I find most of his written material to be pretty good. However, he does write monthly columns for about a half dozen magazines and I suspect that sometimes he runs out of new material because some of his stuff is recycled.
And every once in a while one of his articles goes WAY out into left field.

I think LFI-1 is certainly worth doing. The instruction on the legal and psychological issues of the use of deadly force is pretty good. The firearms part (Basic Stressfire) is well done but basic. ("Stressfire" would be a good beginning level class to start out with).

So, is it worthwhile to attend LFI-1? In my opinion, yes, but I would also recommend training from other sources as circumstances permit.
 
Mas

He turned me off when he wrote in a magazine bad mouthing Charles Askins for his adventures on the border. Charles Askins was a man among men,not only on the border but all over the world.
Mas seems to think that being P.C. is the way to go and has written so in some mags.
Askins called a spade, a spade, and he backed down from no one with different views.
I wish politicians and people with P.C. views would get out of the problems with our borders.I also wish that we had thousands of men like Askins protecting us.
 
Personally, I don't think I'm better than anyone, so no one's language or sense of humor offends me.

It is possible to make a distinction between two people or express a preferance for one type of behavior over another without it meaning you think you are better than someone.
 
ken grant:

I suspect this was after Askins had passed away ... :evil:

By the way, I knew him well enough to have some interesting conversations. ;)
 
Mas shot with our group one night as a guest of one of the regulars.

He was friendly, unpretentious and a good shot (not the fastest through the stages but very good).

I didn't even know it was him for the first half of the night.

Having read his articles and meeting him in person I believe the positive reports about his classes.
 
Some other posters on this topic have mentioned that Ayoob may exaggerate the possibility of civil action or criminal charges in response to a self-defense shooting. The political and social reality of the panhandle of Texas is not the same as the climate in the north-east or on the west coast.


As some one who was almost charged with attempted murder by cops in a large northeast city (despite being in the right on all legal and ethical counts) following an armed encounter, let me tell you, I cannot stress to you all enough how true this is.

Remember, Mas hails from leftist New England, so his outlook is colored by this background.

Massachusetts and NYC are NOT the same as FL or TX.
 
He turned me off when he wrote in a magazine bad mouthing Charles Askins for his adventures on the border. Charles Askins was a man among men,not only on the border but all over the world.

I think "bad-mouthing" is an incorrect term and shows a lack of reading comprehension. Most of the article is a fairly straightforward telling of Askins' adventures. And in case you have forgotten, this is the end of Ayoob's article on Askins.

" There were facets of Charlie that I wouldn't want in a cop. There was racism. There was a killer instinct, too strong, strong enough to sometimes slip its leash. Some of his shootings, if they'd been adjudicated, could have earned him "life without parole."

Yet Charlie was also the man who first organized firearms training in the Border Patrol, laying a foundation that sees that agency today as one of the world's leaders in law enforcement gunfight survival.

His tenacity, his courage, his coolness and above all his skill at arms are qualities we can all strive to emulate, though few of us will manifest them to the degree that he did.

Let that be the legacy of Col. Charles Askins, Jr. May he rest in peace."

And isn't Askins' autobiography entitled, "Unrepentent Sinner"?
 
Much of his legal advice ranges from dead wrong to highly questionable. But I've found some of his articles on various firearms and techniques to be helpful and interesting. You really shouldn't be going to a gun range instructor for legal advice anyway.
 
If Mas had used plain language instead of a writers use of a lot of words to say a little----He would have called Askins a murderer
 
Also,Askins did not care if you were black,tan,yellow or white. If you were a bad guy and went up against him,you paid the price.
He was not a racist! Speaking the plain truth is not being a racist!
 
I've taken LFI-I thru -IV, plus Judicious Use Of Deadly Force and Kubotan.

Highly recommend him. LFI-I is a must-take for anyone owning guns for self-defense. Others teach how to shoot, Mas teaches how to avoid it, prepare for it, do it, and cope with the very messy aftermath.

His other courses are fun exercises in straining your personal limits, moving you firmly to the next level.

At another notable school, the head instructor had negative personal comments about Mas - BUT absolutely recommended taking LFI-I.

As for his "controversial" opinions about possible worries in the courtroom (primarily the "reloads are a legal concern" issue): I've talked to him repeatedly about it - the accusations popularly bandied about regarding his comments have been blown completely out of proportion. As someone often in a courtroom, he sees some things as potential legal problems that one may choose to reconsider - a reasonable view (contrasted with the overblown re-tellings which are then ridiculed and improperly attributed to him).

On the whole, he is a very knowledgeable, very interesting, very thorough teacher. Yes, he uses profanity generously - no more so than a large percentage of the population.

Read "In The Greatest Extreme".
Take "LFI-I".
Now.
 
Ken...

He was not a racist! Speaking the plain truth is not being a racist!

Every "racist" will tell you that they are speaking the truth. Every liar will tell you they are speaking the truth. Everyone who wants you to believe their version of the truth will tell you that they are telling you the truth and that you must believe them.

So how do you know who is telling the truth?

Believing in someone to the point of denying their warts is one of the signs of self-delusion.

Now, I did not know Col Askins, nor do I believe that many people on this forum did, besides I guess Old Fuff. But Askins' life is pretty much an open book for all of us to look at and judge. And the judgement seems to be that on the whole he was a good man with some faults.

Probably like most of us.
 
Do a search here on "ayoobian" and see some of the threads that turn up. Specifically, look at the following three.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65021&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=48587&highlight=ayoobian

The first was a challenge to members to find some specific proof of Ayoob's claims and what I got was a lot of flack over suggesting such an 'expert' would be questioned. The second actually shows where Ayoob managed to show where his own notions of using the gun or ammo that the police use (to help alleviate liability problems of using ammo that a jury might otherwise find offensive) might be more problematic than using something different since he had no cases showing how ammo choice was used effectively against a good guy in a court case, causing the loss of the case. He even went on to state, "Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have nothing substantive." And yet his words have already done so much damage that people make ammo decisions based on what the local police use without knowing if the reasons the police have selected their ammo is congruent with what an individual buying ammo might need. I still hear instructors giving Ayoob's advice and it is without foundation to be valid.

The last thread and these ...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155031&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166597&highlight=ayoobian

point out specific logical and factual errors made by Ayoob in his professional publications, all gun rag stuff, where he gives legal and tactical advice. In the last, he points out how unmarked police cars have certain disadvantages. Case 6, for example, was of an off duty detective asked to drop off an unmarked car for repair. He was in plain clothes and left his gun in the office, but when a call came over the radio about trouble with a man with a gun, he responded to the scene. He was subsequently slaughtered by the man as he was totally unarmed. Once again, this is apparently the fault of the car because the officer didn't look like and officer, wasn't in police clothes, and so didn't realize that he was ballistically naked. How do you blame the car, being unmarked, as the problem for the lack of preparedness of the off duty officer? That is just stupid.

Of course, while I am baffled by such blatant errors going into print and going into print time and time again, part of the fault must also reside with the gun rags for not editing or rejecting the writing of Ayoob. Then again, American Handgunner didn't can Clint Smith for calling folks who didn't like his Thunder Ranch Special revolver, "Turd suckers." Go figure.

I don't like the revolver and I no longer take American Handgunner.
 
"Much of his legal advice ranges from dead wrong to highly questionable."

I think you are going to have to provide specific examples of this - he has certainly testified in many, many courts throughout the nation and if he were that wrong his credibility would be immediately assaulted by opposing attorneys. I took LFI with several attorneys - defense and prosecution, and they were all in agreement his advice was invaluable.

He is profane, but come on, his classes aren't advertised as church socials either. His humor is pointed and barbed but get over it - are we left to sanitize society until all of its color is bleached bright white?

The information he dispenses is valuable - I personally believe everyone who carries should attend LFI or similar courses. Is he beyond reproach? - NO, who is? Take classes from him, Clint, Cooper, etc - combine with your own experiences and develop your own philosophy!
 
Mr. White, yes, I was one of the instructors Mas covered with his loaded (by his own admission) gun during a training confrence. I was one of the 20 or so who complained to the confrence organizers. It was the last day of the confrence, and to my knowledge no action was taken.

The comment about Mas wanting to get into a shooting was the result of conversations with several officers who had escorted Mas when he was in their cities. At different times and places, including the PPC Nationals and a national police expo, officers told me Mas would go for a ride-a-long, and later walk through the worst parts of town. He expressed a desire to 'validate' what he was teaching by getting into a (justified) shooting. So that comment is based on second hand information, from several sources unknown to each other, at different times and in different places. Based on the above, it seems believable to me. You decide for yourself. This was in the late 70's/early 80's, when he was just becoming a big name in the gun press.

This reply was long delayed because, for reasons unknown, I was not automatically notified of any reply to my post until today.

For the party who wanted to 'check my references, I choose not to publish my real name in an open forum. I you wish to persue the matter, please send me a personal message.

I served 27 years as a Special Agent for the U.S. Treasury Department, 25 years as a firearms instructor. I was selected to travel overseas to train foreign agencies. For 9 of those years, I was the Lead Instructor for Firearms and Officer Safety and Survival at our academy. Part of my mandate was the study of officer involved shootings, intigrating lessons learned into our lesson plans. I did kill someone in the line of duty, and I was sued and won the "wrongful death' lawsuit. My actions were upheld to a Circuit of the Supreme Court on appeal.

I do not run a 'shooting school', nor am I in 'competition' with Mas on writing or in any other field. I feel those who intend to spend their money should make an informed choice.

The only class I took from Mas was a large lecture at a national police expo. He was 'profane without a point', meaning he used profanity, but not to emphasise a point. At one point, he picked up a pointer, and started waving it around, again not using it to make a point. I noted a large number of attendees distracted (I could see their heads moving in sync with the pointer) from his comments. As a graduate of, and instructor of, "Instructor Development" classes, this is exactly the kind of thing we cautioned our students about. It detracts from the learning, and interferes with information transfer. I found him to be unprofessional in that setting.

I have never taken a 'small' class from him. From his writings, most (or all) of what he teaches is readily available from multiple other sources, without the distractions of the profanity others have noted.

It's still a mostly free country, spend your money with him if you like.
 
Sleuth,
Mr. White was my father, please call me Jeff :). Thank you for a very interesting eyewitness report. It's always good to have first hand information.

Your report will help me make up my mind about training with Ayoob in the future.

Jeff
 
great thread

I appreciate the honesty of those who are sharing on the thread. It does help to get so many different opinions.

I can honestly say that I wouldn't care much for the 'language' part of his classroom instruction, so the recommendation for The Tactical Defense Institute in Ohio is helpful.

I do plan to read Ayoob's books.
 
think you are going to have to provide specific examples of this - he has certainly testified in many, many courts throughout the nation and if he were that wrong his credibility would be immediately assaulted by opposing attorneys. I took LFI with several attorneys - defense and prosecution, and they were all in agreement his advice was invaluable.

The biggest example is Ayoob's oft-cited maxim that handloads should never be used for self defense. His theory is that a DA or plaintiffs attorney might be able to argue that you made "extra deadly" bullets. In a self defense case, such claims would not only be out of place and illogical, they'd be completely inadmissible and irrelevant. Once the fellow is dead, the lethality of the projectile is simply not at issue. And presumably you aren't going to claim to be suprised that the man died. Self defense in a wrongful death or homicide case is about whether you faced imminent deadly force. It's not about what kind of bullets you used. All bullets are deadly.
 
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