Opinions - concealed carry for small female

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Walther PK380. The compact (but not subcompact) 380 clearly designed for women. I don't know why it doesn't come in pink. Seriously. And I don't mean this as an insult.

The slide is the easiest to rack of anything I've handled. Seriously, if you can zip up your fly, you can rack the slide of a PK380. The recoil is barely more than a 22. The grip lets you get all your fingers on it, but just so. The reach to the trigger is very short. The gun itself is super light.

There really is nothing quite like it out there. I'm always entertained any time I shoot the one I bought for my wife. It really does feel close to a 22.
 
My wife is 5'4" and about 120lbs. She also has trouble racking slides. All said and done she picked a glock 19. Maybe not most concealable, but who is going to ever say or question a little woman about carry? She can rack it with ease and shoot it well. Recoil is low. Like all the replies.
 
Tomcat INOX Price

@bigfatdave - The best price on the INOX we could find local in Columbus Ohio was $449.00 plus tax. That price was at Gander Mountain which was $40+ better than anywhere else. They special ordered it and basically matched the price for the combo INOX slide, matte blue base.
 
I'd like to make some recommendations.

Your lady friend might want to take a basic www.nra.org or www.nssf.com firearm course. These two places have classes with credentialed instructors. This would give her a basic education as to what caliber/gun combo would fill her needs.

There are women only classes from these organizations as well.

www.womenandguns.com www.babeswithbullets.com are two other sources you both can use.

There are revolvers, snub or otherwise, that can shoot .32 H&R magnum or .32 S&W Long ammo. S&W,Taurus, Ruger and Charter Arms make revolvers with short barrels.

The .32 H&R magnum is more powerful than the .32 ACP, yet is mild enough that just about anyone should be able to handle it or the milder .32 S&W Long.

The revolver means no racking any slide and the manual of arms is user friendly. So are the cartridges. Speed loaders are built for carrying extra ammo. Tuff Products and Bianchi make Speedstrips or something similar. www.tuffproducts.com/home.php?cat=265

Extra ammo can be carried discretely and comfortably.

Revolvers can be hidden quite well. Yes, I realize she does not like revolvers, but by her taking a course first she'll be more educated on that. Then she'll be more able to decide what works and what does not.

If she chooses to stay with the pistols, no problem.
 
Oh,yes.

CZ makes the CZ83 in .32 ACP and it holds 15 shots in the magazine. I own one. The recoil spring is not that hard to overcome.

Taurus makes the PT132 Millennium Pro which is also in .32 ACP. I own 3.
It holds 10+1 rounds. Both of these have been and are reliable.

Yes, these pistols are bigger, but they are not hard to hold or use. The longer barrel means better bullet velocity and a longer sight plain for a bit better accuracy than one can get with the ultra small pocket pistols.

She should shoot the largest caliber she can be proficient with. Even if it is a .22lrf. Yes, it is no powerhouse and something bigger would be in order.

There are also those for whom it is a .22lrf gun or nothing at all.

None of this has to be done right this minute, but can be done when she has the time and can concentrate on all this.
I wish the best for her and you. It's a big decision with a lot of things to consider.

Best wishes.
 
Interesting. Hopefully all will be good all around.

My GF just got back visiting family in MT and told me that there's a "curfew" for women in Kalispel. I said "huh" and asked for her to elaborate.. she just repeated that that's what she had been told. I told her I didn't even think that that would be legal.
 
Found this on the Interweb, must be true:
In Columbia Falls, Montana, a curfew law was officially reinstated on February 3rd, 2011. The law requires anyone under the age of 18 to remain indoors between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. Exceptions are made for employment, meetings, events, and errands that are religious and school-related. Violators of the curfew can be fined $50.
 
My wife is similar in size to your friend, has mild AR in here wrists. She has a cwp that she qualified with a 686 4". Her carry gun was 2" .32 H&R mag. She now carries a Ruger LCR in .38 sp shoots 125g jhp +p ammo, and 158 g swcfp in the winter. The light weight LCR works great for her, check out the LCR. She will be 62 next month and a 3 gun shooter now.
Jim
Jim
 
First off, get what you like! Recommendations are only that..opinions!
Auto, or revolver..satisfy yourself!

I have a blue Beretta 3032 (not new wide slide) It has never failed to feed,fire, or eject.

The inox is a nice gun and has wider slide as do the newer blued versions, due to the crack issues? It is my belief that those are mostly ammo related, due to market ammo that is above recommended fps

Here is recommended ammo: ( I have shot it all and My Tomcat is unscathed after Hundreds of rounds, and approaching the thousand mark. (although no issues I do not care for blazer ammo)

Federal Premium Personal Defense 65gr Hydra-Shok JHP (950 Feet/Sec and 130 FT/LBs)
Winchester Super-X Silver Tip 60gr JHP (970 Feet/Sec and 125 FT/LBs)
Speer Gold Dot JHP (960 Feet/Sec and 123 FT/LBs)
Prvi-Partisn 71gr FMJ (902 Feet/Sec and 129 FT/LBs)
Remington UMC 71gr FMJ (905 Feet/Sec and 129 FT/LBs)
CCI Blazer 71gr FMJ (900 Feet/Sec and 128 FT/LBs)
Note that while purchasing ammunition, it is possible with some of the retail shelf personal defense ammunition to find ammunition that can nearly double that of the allowed 130 FT/LB muzzle energy.
I expect this is the biggest issue with the Tomcats, and unnecessary!
Winchester ST and Speer Gold Dot are my favorites

Also Note! IF you can find one they made a limited amount of these wonderful pistols in Titanium and they came with tritium night sights as well! This one is on gunsamerica!
 

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For your consideration, from M4Carbine.net.

From Dr Gary K Roberts leading Terminal Balistic researcher in America today:

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

8/23/11

If you are an LE officer, carry a BUG!!!

Many small, easily concealed semi-automatic pistols which are recommended for law enforcement backup or concealed carry use fire .380 ACP or smaller bullets. While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds, they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.

While both the .380 ACP and .38 sp can obviously be lethal; the .38 sp is more likely to incapacitate an attacker when used in a BUG role.

BUG--Infrequently used, but when needed, it must be 100% reliable because of the extreme emergency situation the user is dealing with. Generally secreted in pockets, ankle holsters, body armor holsters, etc... Often covered in lint, grime, and gunk. By their very nature, usually applied to the opponent in an up close and personal encounter, many times involving contact shots. A small .38 sp revolver is more reliable in these situations than a small .380 ACP pistol, especially with contact shots or if fired from a pocket.

--------------------------------------------------

There have been many reports in the scientific literature, by Dr. Fackler and others, recommending the 158 gr +P LSWCHP as offering adequate performance. Please put this in context for the time that these papers were written in the late 1980's and early 1990's--no denim testing was being performed at that time, no robust expanding JHP's, like the Barnes XPB, Federal Tactical & HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Win Ranger Talon existed. In the proper historical perspective, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP fired out 3-4" barrel revolvers was one of the best rounds available--and it is still a viable choice, as long as you understand its characteristics.

While oversimplified, bare gelatin gives information about best case performance, while 4 layer denim provides data on worst case performance--in reality, the actual performance may be somewhere in between. The four layer denim test is NOT designed to simulate any type of clothing--it is simply an engineering test to assess the ability of a projectile to resist plugging and robustly expand. FWIW, one of the senior engineers at a very respected handgun ammunition manufacturer recently commented that bullets that do well in 4 layer denim testing have invariably worked well in actual officer involved shooting incidents.

With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.

When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)

"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; the Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B) and Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

Any of the Airweight J-frames are fine for BUG use. The steel J-frames are a bit too heavy for comfortable all day wear on the ankle, body armor, or in a pocket. My current J-frames are 342's and previously in my career I have used the 37, 38, 649, and 642. I like the 342 w/Laser grips very much. Shooting is not too bad with standard pressure wadcutters and the 110 gr DPX, but not so comfortable with the Speer 135 gr JHP +P Gold Dots. Before the advent of the 110 gr Corbon DPX load, I used to carry standard pressure wadcutters in my J-frames with Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP's in speed strips for re-loads, as the flat front wadcutters were hard to reload with under stress. There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels.

For years, J-frames were considered "arm's reach" weapons, that is until CTC Laser grips were added. With the mild recoil of target wadcutters, officers are actually practicing with their BUG's; when combined with Laser grips, qualification scores with J-frames have dramatically increased. Now 5 shots rapid-fire in a 6" circle at 25 yds is not uncommon--kind of mind blowing watching officers who could not hit the target at 25 yds with a J-frame suddenly qualify with all shots in the black…

2" J-frames are great BUG's and marginally acceptable low threat carry guns because they are lightweight, reliable, and offer acceptable terminal performance at close range--downsides are difficulty in shooting well at longer ranges because of sight design and sight radius limitations, along with reduced capacity coupled with slower reloading. Nonetheless, with the addition of CTC Laser Grips and an enclosed or shrouded hammer, the 2" J-frame models without key locks (I personally will NEVER own firearm with an integral lock) may be the best BUG's and most reliable pocket handguns available.

Another great BUG option if it can be comfortably carried, is a compact 3-3.5" barrel 9 mm pistol like the G26, Kahr PM9, Sig P239, or S&W 3913, as these offer superior terminal performance compared to either .380 ACP or .38 Sp handguns. A G26 is particularly nice when using a G19 or 17 as a primary weapon due to the ability to use the same magazines.

As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

Go figure.

Fred
 
@bigfatdave - I don't think you are a jerk....I was shocked at the price, too.

@Tomcat47 - great ammunition info I will put to good use - I need to check what personal defense ammo my friend purchased and make sure it meets the requirements. When researching the Tomact, I too found myself wondering if the cracked frames come from innapropriate ammo.
 
@Tomcat47 - great ammunition info
indeed!
That should be put somewhere with a searchable tag, like
"Appropriate Beretta Tomcat ammunition"
and/or
"Beretta Tomcat recommended ammo"

(I'm making it more searchable)
 
Concerning the Tomcat 3032... I will also say that I have a lady friend that has a first generation as well like mine.

She also has conformed to the requirements on ammo. She is also a gun fanatic and hers has probably seen 3x as many rounds through it. It is not cracked either.

I have had two of these pistols..the first one due to an assembly error the (recoil bar) malfunctioned and was returned to Beretta the day after I bought it. (There is a Right and Left Recoil Bar and apparently it had two of same in it and it would not operate that way) They replaced the gun with a brand new one at no charge with an apology...That was around late 80's I believe.

I have enjoyed these pistols very much over the years. I want an Inox version and maybe if I get a good deal "and find" a titanium version I will nab it!
 
Based on my own experiences, at least, I think you nailed the root cause. As far as I can tell, a healthy woman of virtually any size (the smallest I've helped so far is a slender 4'11") can generate enough physical force to rack a slide, with no special techniques required; I do recommend the overhand grip, however, as it is stronger. They just need to be forceful and merciless on the gun, which as you've observed many are reluctant to be. I've had to describe what happens to the slide when shooting and then let them shoot a few rounds to see how that feels in order to convince them that they could not possibly harm the gun by racking the slide too hard.



:) They probably found the shotgun more comfortable to shoot, especially if it has a short or adjustable stock. I think the main ergonomic issue that beginners need the most help with regarding long guns is the fit between the stock and their shoulder. Show them how to properly hold a rifle or shotgun, and they'll have fun, while others who don't get the proper instruction (so simple and basic) may end up with a sore bicep or face or other body part, and may never want to touch a long gun again.
Same experience here with a 4'11" female. Once I explained that military-style semi-automatics were designed to be impervious to testosterone-charged 18-year-old males she had no trouble racking her full-sized 1911 using an overhand grip with her elbows held tightly against her ribs.
 
Good to hear the positive!

@Tomcat47 - thanks for giving so much good data on the upside of these guns. Looks like I will get to shoot the INOX tomorrow. Can't wait!
 
Also have a Beretta Tomcat 3020 that is blued. It has not coughed on anything given to it.

I like the tip up barrel feature.

Also in the mix is a NAA Guardian in .32ACP and a Taurus 732 in that caliber as well.
 
Shot the Tomcat. Nice!

Finally got with my friend and we put 100 rounds through the INOX Tomcat. She did most of the shooting and it went well. We used UMC FMJ ammo. This gun should work fine for her needs, though, she hasn't tried running with it yet.

At first I found it a bit snappy, but I was beginning to get good, consistent accuracy into my third clip.

Hope to get out with it again soon so I can assess it in a bit more detail. Didn't want to be a gun pig the first time out -- after all, it's her gun...
 
There is this for sources of info.


Colt Forum

Conceal Carry Forum

Defensive Carry



FN Forum

Glock Forum

Glock Forums

Gun Forum



H&K Forum

Hand Gun Forum

Kel Tec Forum

Marlin Firearms Forum



Smith & Wesson Forum

Taurus Forum

Walther Forum

XD Forum

Just that they are available.

There is this as well.http://berettaforum.net/vb/

There's this for the ladies for a source as well.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/bustles-bows-bullets/

There are links in the first few threads that have women's sites for shooting.
 
I said it before and I'll keep saying it.
In my humble opinion, "racking slides", "thumbing de-cockers" and "disengaging" safties are NOT things to be thought about in an emergency situation ESPECIALLY by someone who is only a "casual" shooter.
A revolver, on the other hand CAN be kept READY and SAFE at all times, a mere pull of the trigger bringing it into action.
 
You can reccomend all you want, and it doesn't mean didly squat to some one who doesn't read here and who has their mind set on another gun. The one buying the gun is a runner. Anyone here tried running with a revolver? In a fanny pack? I have, and it will beat ya to death. ChopChop is intelligent, and is doing her friend a great service.
ll
 
You can reccomend all you want, and it doesn't mean didly squat to some one who doesn't read here and who has their mind set on another gun. The one buying the gun is a runner. Anyone here tried running with a revolver? In a fanny pack? I have, and it will beat ya to death. ChopChop is intelligent, and is doing her friend a great service.
ll

I really want to believe that MY posts ARE directed to folks that read here.
 
@Zeek/PA – I agree with you on the safety of a revolver, but as a former runner I also agree with lloveless. It’s just not practical (particularly for a small woman) to run with a revolver.

Thank you lloveless for your kind words of support. And Zeke, I do read here and am trying to “build a bridge”….first and foremost, these posts have benefitted me enormously. If I thought I had all the answers I wouldn’t have reached out. My hope is to get my friend plugged into this forum soon!

So, thanks to all.
 
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