"Overpenetration" and rifle rounds--the myth that won't die

[ArmandTanzarian]

I'm not necessarily advocating a handgun over a longgun for home defense, but the box o' truth guy proved once and for all that it's the idea that a .223 does NOT penetrate significantly that is the myth, not the other way around. IOW, it does penetrate a LOT. Went through several "walls" worth of sheetrock like it wasn't even there. That's ball ammo. Now with something more frangible, different story; true that - you have a point there.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

It was time to get out the rifle. I shot my 16" AR with XM-193. Here I am busting the Box.

[...]

Lessons learned:
1. Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.

2. Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

In any event, it doesn't matter a great deal, because IF you have a brick exterior, it will stop most anything, coupled with other barriers (sheetrock), and if it doesn't, the bricks will at the least sap the vast majority of dangerous energy from it. OTOH, IF you DON'T have bricks/stones, then again, it matters not what round you're using - 9mm, .45, .223, they will ALL easily penetrate and keep on a-flyin'.

So probably, the lessons are...live in a brick structure if possible, both to keep bullets in AND keep bullets out. Given the above, may as well use the longarm, for max effectiveness, since penetration concerns are a wash. (well, ok, don't use a .45-70 hardcast 500 grainers though).

 

[mljdeckard]

Sand and ballistic gel aren't flesh.

Still haven't heard any objections to my M-1 carbine and remington 870 with #4 or 00.

Really, are there any objections?

 

[Gewehr98]

Cosmo, you get too worked up. It's no big deal, really.

Real life doesn't always cooperate like that. Spending some time in the woods with your short gun trying to hit running furry things is a real eye opener. Not with a long barrel, scoped hunting handgun, mind, but the one you actually plan on using for self defense. Just go do it some time. Try to go shoot some squirrel and hare with your 1911 or whatever. See how well you do compared with a .22 rifle. If you can bullseye squirrels at 25 yards with your hand iron over and over again, you are the man now, dog ;-)

I've been the man, literally, since about 1977. Maybe there's some hillbilly in my family history, but we didn't have a lot of money at the time, so my parents had myself and my sister potting cottontail and snowshoe rabbits on our farm for the crock pot with a Model 27 S&W revolver and .38 Special 148gr HBWC ammo. Of course, we were shooting competitively in NRA small-bore matches beginning in 4th grade, I understand in this day and age that would be unheard of. Fast-forward another 20 years and you'd find me using my Wichita silhouette pistol during centerfire deer season to stuff the freezers with venison. That same handgun has put wild pork in my freezer when I was stationed in Florida. I've duplicated the bunny-thumping technique since I've moved back here with my IPSC/carry Norinco 1911 shooting 200gr SWC loads, it's a hoot. So I'm neither intimidated nor under any misconceptions as to what can and cannot be accomplished with a handgun in my own situation. Obviously, your mileage may vary, as you've pointed out, and that's fine.

That doesn't mean I don't have a defensive rifle and/or shotgun in my bag of home defense tricks, right along with a couple big anti-social dogs and 911 speed-dial, closed circuit TV w/IR illumination, all-lights-on panic button, etc. I'm a wonderful host, but I've also been the recipient of a couple attempted home-invasion robberies in Citrus Heights, CA, so these days I'm not exactly running the home wide open to all comers. My own gut feeling is a layered defense is best, so our game plan utilizes all of the above. Whatever works and you're both comfortable and proficient, that's what will save your bacon.

Don't ge me wrong, I'm not going to advocate stopping any and all attacks on your person with that little J-frame .38 that you've become a deadeye with (Unless it's all you have). What I'm saying is that if a handgun doesn't work for your particular defensive situation, by all means explore other options to include shotguns, rifles, claymores, Burmese Tiger Traps, VHF Secure Satcom precision B-2 JDAM strikes, whatever. But don't do the blanket assumption thing and rule out handguns as defensive weapons for others based on your own experiences. That's not really fair to others, and truthfully, some of us are quite capable of taking care of ourselves. There was a time my only defensive firearm was a DCM M1 Garand, loaded with 150gr Winchester Silvertips. Plug that into the Box-O'-Truth.

 

[Mike_in_OC]

mljdeckard, I use a similiar set up. .357 1894c lever action loaded with .357 corbon 110 gr. And a 870 loaded with #4 buck. 870 will soon be replaced by Benelli M1S90. Both rest in Tufloc

http://www.esmet.com/singlegun.html

 

[Kurush]

In any event, it doesn't matter a great deal, because IF you have a brick exterior, it will stop most anything, coupled with other barriers (sheetrock), and if it doesn't, the bricks will at the least sap the vast majority of dangerous energy from it.

Nope! Brick is not cover, even from 5.56.
Watch and be enlightened: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6760530260633420235

 

[Cosmoline]

But don't do the blanket assumption thing and rule out handguns as defensive weapons for others based on your own experiences. That's not really fair to others, and truthfully, some of us are quite capable of taking care of ourselves. There was a time my only defensive firearm was a DCM M1 Garand, loaded with 150gr Winchester Silvertips.

How many times do I have to say that handguns are useful short range defensive firearms? I've never made the blanket assumptions you claim I've made. But there is almost no situation this side of digging VC out of 3' tunnels where a short gun is preferable to a long gun. We only use them where we have to use them, either because of legal or convenience issues. For example we use them for CCW not because they're better than a rifle but because a rifle would be difficult to conceal and might get us in trouble with the law.

I'm happy to hear you're the man with handguns. Why you didn't use a .22 I don't really know, but it sounds like you had fun so great. But a good as you are (and I don't doubt you're better than me) no human can shoot better with a short gun than an average rifleman can shoot with an average long gun.

Beyond all accuracy considerations, beyond all BS about overpenetration, there remains this fact. That Garand shooting 150 SP's will do things to a human man no 1911 ever could. And when you need to stop a killer, it's a mighty fine thing to have overwhelming firepower in your hands that you *KNOW* you can hit him with and you *KNOW* will liquify his lungs, tear out his heart, and send him spinning down to hell.

"Know that the pistol has no value, we practically don't use it." Mordechai Anielewicz, Warsaw Ghetto

 

[LAK]

I think "over-penetration" is a subjective term. Unless I am going to spend an inordinate amount of time on a crowded bus, I am more concerned about under-penetration.

The 17"-18" mentioned for the heavier 30-30 bullets is very close to ideal IMO. It means that the bullet might still go where I want it to even if it strikes the fat forearm first of a very big badguy haunched over a gun pointed at me.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Sand and ballistic gel aren't flesh.

No, ballistic gel is just what scientists use to predict how bullets will behave in flesh.

Brick is not cover, even from 5.56.
Watch and be enlightened: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30260633420235

Great link! Thanks for sharing it. For the purposes of this discussion though, it is important to note that brick was only penetrated by using three-round burst at 0 degrees from 19m and that even then the round was broken up so that all it did was spray fragments on the other side of the wall.

So you could reasonably expect a brick exterior facing on a house to contain any danger that might be posed by using 5.56mm in self-defense. Though you certainly have a good point that even with 5.56mm, you can eventually reduce most cover to concealment with a 30rd magazine.

 

[Master Blaster]

I dont think there are any hard fast rules about the over-penetration issue.

In my own house, if I were firing at an intruder and I missed, the round might encounter multiple walls and hit a couple of studs effectively stopping it from exiting. OR The round might only have to go through one layer of sheetrock, insulation and plywood sheathing before it encounters the same at my neighbors house 20 yards away. In that case a 9mm, 223, .308,or even shotgun pellets will be still going fast enough to injure or kill somone in the next house.

Heck it might only have to go through two layers of glass, or even just a layer of glass or a couple of window screens if its a nice night and the windows are open.

The rule be aware of your target and what is beyond applies here for any HD round. IMHO the most effective least risky round would be a shotgun shell with buck or large shot.

 

[mljdeckard]

I ultimately agree with master blaster. YOU DON'T KNOW. You can't conclusively eliminate the possibility, you can only minimize it.

In my HOME, shooting around my KIDS, 110 HSP .30 carbine and #4 are the best compromises I can think of.

 

[jerkface11]

Hope i don't live near any of you fellows who use a .223 for home defense. I mean i'm sure it's easy to be aware of your backstop after you miss and the bullet goes out a window and keeps going for a mile or two.

 

[308win]

I don't like the idea of using birdshot for defense. I've had it fail to stop ground squirrels at ranges I have in my house enough times that I am skeptical of its ability to stop a meth'd up body builder with a machete. And that is with a 26 inch barreled turkey choke.

Up to about 7yds the 'slug' effect will be in play. Beyond that the birdshot pattern will begin to open up quickly. If your target is inside 7yds birdshot will make a pretty impressive hole in most soft targets.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Hope i don't live near any of you fellows who use a .223 for home defense. I mean i'm sure it's easy to be aware of your backstop after you miss and the bullet goes out a window and keeps going for a mile or two.

In reality, you'd be in more danger if I missed while using my .45 for HD than my .223.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Does anyone happen to have a link to a knowledgeable source for the pentration of 7.62x39 as compared to 5.56 on the types of common barriers as have been listed?

 

[g56]

I had the opportunity to talk to someone who was shot in the upper right torso from 15 feet away with a load of birdshot. He made his own 911 call. He showed me the wound and it was good shot placement (or would have been had the birdshot penetrated deeply enough to reach vital organs). I would guess #7 or #8 shot; but he didn't know for sure.

We carried #4 Duck & Pheasant, normally the #4 Duck was in the chamber, next round was 00 Buck, then alternate in the magazine.

Personally I've only seen one person shot with that load, distance about 10 feet, he was dead before he hit the ground, you don't live to long when you heart has basically been shredded to mush. Armed and barricaded subject in a trailer house, the Under Sheriff was approaching the back door of a trailer, going up the back stairs, subject stepped out the back door of the trailer, stuck his pistol in the Under Sheriff's face and pulled the trigger, it went click, misfire....the Under Sheriff ducked and the officer right behind him shot the subject one time in the chest with #4 Duck, as I mentioned, distance of about 10 feet, subject was probably dead before he fell to the ground. I didn't witness the shooting, but I did see the deceased and the terrible wound in his chest, he never had a chance.

 

[Cosmoline]

Does anyone happen to have a link to a knowledgeable source for the pentration of 7.62x39 as compared to 5.56 on the types of common barriers as have been listed?

It depends on the bullet and the speed. The problem with x39 is it's harder to get good HP and SP loads for it. The Russian production SP tends to be little more than standard ball with the jacket peeled back. It may or may not expand, and does pose a danger of just going and going. The Cor-Bon hot & heavy stuff is good, though.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I didn't think the bulk type russian stuff would perform well in this role, but hoped something like the Lapua or Winchester JSP loadings might have some data available.

 

[Cosmoline]

There's a real lack of good terminal performance data with the x39 custom and handloaded rounds.

 

[goon]

All I have to go by are the ballistic gel tests that I have seen online but judging from some of them, something like a 5.56mm ballistic tip bullet seems like it might be a pretty decent choice. The ballistic tip should still cause the bullet to begin opening and fragmenting as soon as it hits anything. Since walls are harder than people, they should break up even faster.
Does anyone know of any tests on this type of ammo against walls?

As for the birdshot in the 12 gauge, I will admit to that.
I look at it like this.
If I am attacked and I fight back and I still die, at least I die on my feet.
If I accidentally kill an innocent person I don't think I could live with that on my conscience.
For me, the best choice in a shotgun is most likely going to be a heavy birdshot load, probably two in a row, backed up by buck.

I will gamble with my own life rather gamble with someone else's.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Thanks, though, for the info Cosmoline!

 

[grendelbane]

People seem to forget that there are long guns chambered for pistol calibers.

There is a grey area regarding what a pistol and a rifle caliber is.

Penetration is indeed determined by bullet construction and velocity, not the firearm from which it is fired. (Though rifling twist can have an effect.)

Winchester model 92's in .44-40, (a rifle caliber, though one also used in pistols), were once considered good lion medicine. Most large frame, long barrel magnum revolvers make the old muskets look lame in everything except terminal ballistics, and they are not really too shy there.

My favorite household arm is an AR15 in .45 ACP. My neighbors are far enough away that I don't worry about excessive penetration. The slightly higher velocity from the 16" carbine barrel ensures that penetration in gelatin and similar circumstances will be less than that of the same ammuntion fired from a conventional 5" handgun barrel.

But not that much less!

 

[KINGMAX]

YES = +1

1. A LARGE barking dog
2. The sound of a pump shotgun being cycled into action.
__________________
David
Aiken, SC

That should do it.

 

[Medusa]

Wow, that dude isn't messing around. I'd like to see what a 40mm pistol looks like.

Hmm, I've never considered the AG36 (40x46 mm cal) to be a pistol, although it could be used as one. If you haven't heard, the 40mm is a standard calibre GL, attached to rifle.
Looks like this:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/core.php?dat=Y29tcG9uZW50PWFydGljbGVzJmFjdGlvbj1zaG93JnhJRD1wcm9kdWN0QXJ0aWNsZURldGFpbHMmYXJ0aWNsZUlEPTMwMyZjYXRJRD0xMzA1JmxhbmdJRD01JnBhcmVudElEPTcyNCZuYXZpZ2F0aW9uSUQ9NzI5JnVzZUZsYXNoPTE=

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Over-everything

Just as a warning,

I was shooting behind my house into an uphill bank, what I believed to be hollow point (labeled "Hunting Spec") ammo in 7.62x39. It had a little soft lead over what was supposed to be a gaping hole that was supposed to expand. After firing a few rounds and putting up the rifle the police drove by, and then by again, and finally into my driveway where we were having a good ole mountain party. It turns out the ammo was steel core FMJ rigged to 'look' like hunting ammo and it went through the target, bounced in clay, and went a mile over a huge hardwood forest landing somewhere on a neighbors property intact. The deputy pulled it out of his pocket. I about crapped.
As a serious shooter who considers safety and public relations equal with skill, this was not a fun day. So just be aware if you buy cheap import stuff you may not be getting what you think you are. If in doubt test fire rounds, dissect them, or pull them apart. We have since upgraded the range to make such an accident less likely.

 

[Spencer]

It has alot to do with bullet type.

The difference in the effects of a .223 caliber MC bullet and a .223 caliber JHP bullet on a water jug is quite noticable.