When did 'Overpenetration' begin?

[Geronimo45]

Many threads mentioning what caliber, rifle vs shotgun vs handgun, ad infinitum - and somebody always brings up overpenetration of one or the other. Seems to be a very important thing nowadays. I hear that the 5.56 round is supposed to penetrate much less than a pistol round on non-human/body armor barriers, and that's supposed to be one of its selling points.
Well, I was reading Applegate's Kill or Get Killed. On page 393, there's a picture of the "Colt Armalite AR-15 Cal. .223 Rifle." It's mentioned as a lightweight new high-cap rifle, and then these interesting remarks show up:
"The high velocity of the small diameter bullet gives it extraordinary penetration... the rifle has penetrating power against metal objects such as car bodies and engine blocks."
I won't say a word as to the validity of that remark. It just strikes me as funny that the AR seems to be marketed today as a rifle with very little penetration, the opposite of what it was about fifty-ish years ago. Also brings up a point on changing thoughts re: penetration.

I understand the desire to avoid shooting clean through the BG and hitting an innocent behind 'im. I understand that this has happened (incident in California fast food place, I think) and the innocent died. Tragic, absolutely - but it seems like a freakish occurrence. You seem to hear more about bullets fired into the air coming down and killing people than you do about them overpenetrating.

What I don't understand is why overpenetration is such a (very, very) big worry nowadays, though, as opposed to past years. Seems like you can't discuss a caliber of any kind without overpenetration being worried over. People seem to want to choose an HD weapon based on overpenetration worries. When did it all begin?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When firearms were invented.

It's a bigger deal in recent years because there was a time when if you shot a bad guy and the bullet continued through and then hit someone else, it was considered an accident.

Now it's considered the shooter's fault. (Which I think is wrong. It should be the shootee's fault.)

 

[benEzra]

Applegate's comments regarding the .223 pertain to military FMJ, and possibly AP, ammunition, which do indeed penetrate more than handgun rounds. And .223 FMJ does have pretty impressive penetration for a .22. Compared to a .30 carbine, penetration with FMJ is pretty good, though much less than a .308 or .30-06.

With lightweight hollowpoints, however, .223 does indeed penetrate less in building materials than pretty much any handgun rounds. But that's only true for JHP's, not FMJ.

FWIW, any centerfire rifle will go through NIJ Level II or IIIA soft body armor like it's not there; those levels are rated for handgun rounds only. To stop even the smallest centerfire rifle calibers, you need NIJ Level III hard armor, minimum.

BTW, if you were my neighbor, I'd sure as heck HOPE you were thinking about penetration issues, and not blithely assuming that you'll just use my kids' beds as a backstop. Worry about overpenetration and rounds exiting a structure cropped up as soon as (1) they stopped making urban buildings with stone/concrete walls, and (2) they started putting thin-walled homes with no masonry outer wall in close-built suburban subdivisions, IMHO.

 

[mnrivrat]

What I don't understand is why overpenetration is such a (very, very) big worry nowadays, though, as opposed to past years.

The reason is called : Lawyers

 

[Majic]

Now it's considered the shooter's fault. (Which I think is wrong. It should be the shootee's fault.)

Basic safety rule:
Know your target and what's behind it.

 

[TexasRifleman]

When [strike]firearms[/strike] lawyers were invented.

Fixed it for you

 

[Deanimator]

It's a bigger deal in recent years because there was a time when if you shot a bad guy and the bullet continued through and then hit someone else, it was considered an accident.

+1

When they shot Dillinger, I believe they killed at least one bystander. I'll bet the family MAYBE got an appology.

 

[ceetee]

BTW, if you were my neighbor, I'd sure as heck HOPE you were thinking about penetration issues, and not blithely assuming that you'll just use my kids' beds as a backstop.

Amen. I've lived in areas where the homes were very similar to cardboard boxes slapped down next to each other, and knowing that some of my neighbors had made a habit of drinking way too much while fooling around with their shotguns ("It's jest birdshot... you ain't a bird, are you?") made me very cautious about where I placed my bookshelves, in relation to the outside walls...

 

[everallm]

If you want some practical details on penentration/over-penetration have a look at the web site "The Box O'Truth". Interesting and informative and sometimes a little strange.....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

 

[Geronimo45]

Not denying that a bullet from practically any firearm will punch through multiple walls, and that they can kill when they get there - I'm just trying to find out when it became such a big deal. Old-time writers don't seem to even think of the issue, and I have heard that 'overpenetration' was simply a buzzword used to get HP rounds for PDs instead of FMJ (for their autos, I believe. Date of overpenetration worry beginnings may go back to the adoption of Wonder Nines). Doesn't sound PC to say: "We want these rounds because they make bigger holes and kill faster - in order that our officers can go home safely." So you say: "These rounds reduce the chances of overpenetration - in order to reduce the risk of injuring civilians."

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I'm going to go with a combination of people living farther apart, sturdier building construction, litigation was for the rich back then, guns were not as powerful back then and didn't have the ammo we have now(to a degree), less criminals running around to get shot as we used to actually keep them in jail or hang them.

 

[akanotken]

May have something to do with population density increasing.

May have something to do with our sophistication, Bullet designs now offer more choices.

Definitely has a lot to do with the politically correct landscape that we live in.

BTW, 5.56 rounds come in many flavors. But it's fragmentation in soft tissue keeps overpenetration down MUCH below handgun and large buckshot and slugs. You don't get that same affect on hard objects (walls, vests, etc) so penetration isn't as diminished there.

 

[ceetee]

I had another thought along this line: Wasn't this about the same time that the "Energy Dump" theory became widely accepted as true? Was part of the origin of the "overpenetration" issue rooted in the idea that to be 100% effective, a bullet must dump 100% of it's energy inside the body (rather than leaving a nice ragged exit would to let all the pent-up blood out)?

 

[Pigspitter]

The irony is that "over penetration" was coined by the same people who said "The .223 won't kill people, we need to give our soldiers at least a .416 rigby with a .500S&W autoloader as a side arm". Pretty much the people who act like they know about guns but really don't.

 

[Soybomb]

Also don't forget that while the high velocity round will tumble and fragment in tissue, it doesn't do that through steel.

What I don't understand is why overpenetration is such a (very, very) big worry nowadays, though, as opposed to past years.

People worry about lots of things that are probably unjustified. Personally I'm way more worried about the misses than the hits.

 

[MisterPX]

I think in the early 90's, when the country became sue happy.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

When did over penetration begin? when the cannon was invented and used for battle.

 

[wally]

People worry about lots of things that are probably unjustified. Personally I'm way more worried about the misses than the hits.

Big +1!

--wally.

 

[Fatelvis]

I know I may not be among the popular vote here, but I want my defense ammo to penetrate like the dickens. You can keep the "energy dump" theory, and fear of overpenetration. When the BG hides behind a wall, door, windshield, overturned oak table, etc., or his pewter flask or metal crackpipe comes between my bullet and him, I want my bullet to reach him. I understand that before firing you must think about what is behind your target, as a responsible gun owner you owe that to your community. You have to take the backstop into consideration before firing, or at the very least, fire at an extreme downward angle. Luckily my community builds brick houses.

 

[JohnBT]

Some background according to -

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm

"With the advent of modern hostage rescue tactics in the 1970s and 1980s, the military and police agencies began to look for ways to minimize overpenetration risks. One widely-accepted solution was the frangible round,"

"Concerns with over penetration / ricochet hazards aboard aircraft, ships and (e. g.) nuclear power plants that might release hazardous materials have led to efforts to provide small caliber ammunition with reduced ricochet, limited penetration (RRLP) for use by SOF to reduce risk to friendly forces and innocent persons. "

"Glaser Safety Slug, Inc. developed the first frangible bullet in 1974 to provide reduced ricochet and over-penetration danger with improved stopping power over conventional bullets. In 1987, Glaser developed the round-nose frangible bullet offering guaranteed feeding reliability. In 1988 Glaser introduced the compressed-core bullet to maximize bullet weight and the number of bullet fragments. This precision formed bullet also produces target grade accuracy, seldom found in a personal defense bullet. In 1994 Glaser improved fragmentation reliability to below 1,000 feet per second through the use of soft, rather than hard plastic in the bullet tip."
________

Me? I think it's the lawyers.

John