"Overpenetration" and rifle rounds--the myth that won't die

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After reading the thread, there seems to be two groups talking past each other due to the imprecise definition of overpenetration.

After the bullet has already hit the (human) target, rifle rounds are less likely to overpenetrate.

When the bullet completely misses the target, rifle rounds are no better (and possibly quite a bit worse) than pistol rounds when it comes to penetrating walls/etc.

/Assuming you want ~ 12" of penetration in bare gelatin.
 
The more I read the more confused i become.

I gotta agree with MDAO, There are 2 opposed sides here.

I'll admit I'm a supporter of varmint bullets for SD/HD, specifically Nosler 55gr ballistic tips. I'll agree with the fact that they lack penetration, I believe someone posted penetration of 4" for varmint bullets. That doesn't seem like much in the grand sceem of things but 4" is more than half way through the average humans chest.

One things that hasn't really been mention is bullet expansion, I've seen penetration, over penetration, under penetration, yawing, twisting, tumbling and drunking stumbling but no real mention of bullet expansion. Varmint bullets EXPAND QUICKLY AND VIOLENTLY, that's what they're designed to do. They have leave a wound channel that looks like your average lightbulb. \

They enter and start exploding tearing up meat and making a big wound cavity and deposit all the bullets energy into the target. Hit a BG in the chest with one and it will put him on his ass, dead or not you have time to decide if a follow up is needed or not. They will practially cut an arm or leg off. Unless the BG is wearing body armour rapid expansion is a greater benefit than penetration. An exit wounds ust means he will leave a better blood trail.

With a limb hit or miss penetration is minimal, yes the bullet will still travel through 1 full wall but a second would be pushing it, the bullet would most likely be shredded by the time it enters the second wall, if it hits a stud in the first wall it will be done there.
 
OK, I read this entire thread, front to back.

Got to the last post,
which was posted over 1.5 yrs ago,
and found that the issue wasn't settled.

I mean, it was like a novel with no ending. :(

I was just left hanging,
like I was on a 2-pitch,
5.9 granite wall in NM
a few years ago.
(150' above the next piece of solid ground,
trying to get an anchor out of a granite crack
that wouldn't let it go.)

So, what brought me to this thread?

Well, I'm wearing a SW 642 loaded with
Speer Gold Dot .38 spl 135 gr +P.

My Marlin 1894C in .357 mag
(that is replacing the 12 ga)
will be here early next week.

So, given that the '94C is going to
play a major role in SD (that's studio defense),
what's the OP (over-penetration potential)?

By the way, please let me reset the tape with a post
from the OP, Cosmoline, who lives in the region
I'm leaning towards (which, incidently, is not NJ):

Yeah, there's no perfect solution. What I object to is the conventional wisdom that a 9x19 or .45 ACP is going to pose a decreased risk and one should never use a rifle for home defense because it will shoot through fifty houses and kill someone in the next city. Projectiles from any firearm powerful enough to kill a man will bust through many interior walls. From .32 caliber roundballs to a .30'06 180 grainer. So you're better off using the most powerful and accurate firearm you have, both because it will give you the best chance of winning the fight and because it stands a better chance of hitting what you're aiming it at and getting the job done with fewer rounds. ANY TIME you pull the trigger outside range conditions, you're running the risk of hitting a third party. That's why you only do it if you're faced with imminent and unlawful deadly force.
Click to expand...
I agree.

If I'm pressed, and have less than 10 sec to deal with a SD situation,
I'll take the 642 and be aware of the 4th gun safety rule:
Be aware of what's behind your target.

(Yes, I know where my neighbors are.)

If I have > 10 sec,
or if the '94C is on the sling on my shoulder,
I'll grab it because a carbine with an 18" brl,
loaded with .357 mag for SD ...
well, it don't get much better.

;)

I'll still be aware of where my neighbors are,
but will be more confident that I'll hit my target
with that little carbine ...

But then again,
maybe things are different
in the 'burbs of Fairbanks
than in the 'burbs of Dallas.

Nem
 
"Overpenetration" and rifle rounds--the myth that won't die"

Just don't stand behind the myth - if someone shoots at it, and overpenetration is real - you could be hurt too!
 
I've been a shooter and hunter my whole life and I'm also a Paramedic

I have seen humans and structures hit by various projectiles from various firearms.USSRhit the nail on the head WAAAAAAY back in post #5. Bullet construction and velocity are the only factors in the equation. Hence, the complication...

You can have a short barrelled weapon producing high velocities with projectiles that are designed to stay together; You can have long-arms sending "soft" projectiles at very low velocities and everything in-between. It is a waste of effort and time arguing over which style of firearm is safer, better, etc etc etc.. for home defense with regards to secondary damage because it really comes down to the make-up of the ammunition. I personally prefer a hand-gun because manouverability and swing speed are right up there on my priority list.

I must add that I am not a subscriber to the concept that handguns are useless with regards to accuracy. I shoot Service Match every Sunday and I can consistently put six rounds into the nine ring at 50 metres, (and I'm by NO MEANS amongst the best there are out there with a pistol). Like anything, if you take the time to learn how, you'd be surprised what can be achieved with a short barrel.

It's not a simple debate

There is no simple answer

Whatever you choose as a home defense weapon, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.. if for no other reason than the sanity of the emergency services personnel that have to clean up.... LOAD SPECIFICALLY FOR THE JOB AT HAND!!!! DON'T USE HUNTING LOADS for self defense in confined/built-up areas... You'll successfully protect yourself, your family and your property.... and maybe kill the kid next door.

I pray that none of you are ever in the position where you have to use 'em.
 
Hey Nem, take this for what it's worth but I think the 1894C loaded with 158 gr HP ammo is a fine choice for "studio defense". Lighter HP bullets will probably fragment wildly upon impact at the increased velocity from the carbine barrel, leading to UNDER penetration.

Another good choice might be the .30-30 loaded with 125 gr JHP rounds. Although right now I have it sighted in with 170 gr bullets, my 336C with the 18" barrel would be a hell-on-wheels defensive weapon with the light hollow points.
 
lukefenech, the first part of your post makes a lot of sense. But this part leaves me scratching my head:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.. if for no other reason than the sanity of the emergency services personnel that have to clean up.... LOAD SPECIFICALLY FOR THE JOB AT HAND!!!! DON'T USE HUNTING LOADS for self defense in confined/built-up areas... You'll successfully protect yourself, your family and your property.... and maybe kill the kid next door.
Click to expand...

If as you note the bullet construction is the key, then a blanket prohibition on "hunting ammo" makes no sense. You must be aware that "hunting ammo" includes everything from high velocity varmint bullets that practically explode on impact to monolithic solids no sane person would fire at anything but a charging buff. I think you were right to begin with--the key is to look to the bullet design and expected velocity rather than making blanket generalizations.
 
MTMilitiaman stated that a large barking dog and the sound of a pump shotgun can scare away many would-be burglars. There is no doubt about it. It is best for nearby neighbors when the dog is kept inside at night (recently an acquaintance and his wife told me about his lawsuit because of the neighbor's outside dog, here on Highway 64: the judge went to witness the loud noise).

Back in the 50s or 60s, my grandfather (in Jackson, MS, in an "interesting" old part of town, less than a block from the "dividing line"...) heard a scratching sound very late at night on the screen porch, on the front of the house.

He quietly carried his 12-gauge shotgun up to the screen and pumped it once :eek:.

He never had that problem again.
 
I can tell you from personal experience that a .223 UMC, or comparable cheap target/plinking round commonly avalable in FMJ will shatter a cinderblock and keep penetrating. They will cut through 12 layers of spaced apart 3/4 inch plywood, they can cut through several layers of 2X4 and keep penetrating. They can cut through a 70 Impala and kill someone on the otherside.
So I dont care if your house is made of cinderblock, bricks, plywood, or what, if your neighbor is within a 1/4 mile you have to be careful about whats behind the object you are shooting in defense of your home.
No uninformed opinion will change the reality of how much overpenetration a 223 or 5.56mm or any rifle round is capable of.
I dont experience with frangible rounds avalable and what they can penetrate, but Im sure they are alot safer than either FMJ,SP,HP, etc.
 
Would people please stop citing penetration tests of 5.56x45mm military ball and .223 FMJ when discussing the suitability of lightweight .223 HOLLOWPOINTS for home defense purposes?

Yes, the DoD tests showed that multiple 5.56x45mm FMJ out of a machinegun impacting on the same spot will penetrate a brick wall. That doesn't mean individual civilian .223 JHP's will exit an exterior wall. Ditto for those citing the Box o'Truth FMJ tests.

Yes, 5.56mm FMJ penetrates more than 9mm JHP. So does 9mm FMJ, .45 ACP FMJ, and hard cast .357 solids. All of which have absolutely nothing to do with the penetrative abilities of properly selected JHP's in the various calibers.

Multiple tests have shown that .223 HOLLOWPOINTS penetrate LESS in gelatin, penetrate less in building materials, and have less wounding potential after penetrating building materials than most handgun JHP's. The penetrative abilities of 5.56mm FMJ are as irrelevant to this discussion as the penetrative abilities of 9mm FMJ are.



Added on edit: Holy Thread Resurrection, Batman! I didn't notice that this thread is several years old.
 
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Hrmm, I've got a 45-70 and a 30.06 at home, considering what I've seen the 30.06 do to a pig at 30 yards (through both shoulders and into the tree behind it) I'll stick with my .45 acp.

Its also got the appropriate sites on it.

If I had my shotgun with me, I'd use it with my 2/4 3.5" turkey mag loads. If it'll kill turkeys at 55 yds, I'm sure that it will take down a human within 10yds
 
Well here's my two cents. I'm no ballistics expert and don't have any military or police experience. BUT, I have been an avid sportsman, hunter, and gun enthusiast all my life and I'm 43 now. I have also been an RN at one hospital or another most of my 43 years. There are a lot of internet blogs out there by self ordained gun/ballistics experts who will dispute what I'm about to tell you. But I have seen more gunshot wounds than I care to remember come in to the ERs of the hospitals in which I've worked. (Most likely far more than the self ordained internet gurus have ever seen) And I'm here to tell you that the worst and most consistently lethal wounds I have seen inflicted on people were made by shotguns with shells like a high powered number 6 at interior house ranges. There is no comparison to the mess made by this combination. By far the most gunshot D.O.A's and gunshot patients who did not make it out of the ER alive where shot at close range by smaller shot like this. Anyone who thinks that a high powered 6 from a 12 gauge won't consistently kill you at inside house distances is just sadly misinformed and has not seen what I have with my own eyes. No guestimations based on shooting at jello molds of varying consistency here. I'm talking experience with wounds inflicted on actual human beings. Any torso hit with this stuff at short range is virtually a death sentence. Why? Because unlike almost anything else there is little chance of it luckily missing vital organs and arteries. Pistol and rifle bullets can pass within 1 inch of a vital organ or artery and do it no harm. A high powered 12 gauge 3" magnum 6 has about 400 pellets in it. Shoot someone at 10 to 15 feet in the upper chest with a short barreled shotgun and it will hit both lungs, their heart, and most of the large arteries associated with the heart and lungs. Shoot them in the mid to lower torso at that range and you will hit some combination of liver, kidneys, spleen, pancreas, intestine, stomach and most likely the abdominal aorta. Both hits would be instantly incapacitating and cause either instant death or a rapidly impending one.

Now at longer ranges, sure, number 6's would quickly become ineffective. But most of us don't live in the Taj Mahal where a long range interior shot is possible. And if you kill someone outside your house at a range that high powered number 6's wouldn't do the job? Well, I'll tell you like I heard another guy put it once. "If you kill him outside that far away, then you better be worried about more than just how good your bullet is. You better be worried how good your lawyer is as well."
 
By far the most gunshot D.O.A's and gunshot patients who did not make it out of the ER alive where shot at close range by smaller shot like this.
Click to expand...
That's because the shotgun and small shot are popular for HD, due to "racking a shotgun will scare people off" and "birdshot wont shoot through walls." Have you compared the number of people who were hit with small shot to the folks shot with 00 buck?

Another thing to consider is collateral damage. With H132 00 buck (federal reduced recoil 9 pellet) in my 590, I've seen patterns as tight as 8" at 25yards. The largest I remember is about 12," maybe 14. IIRC, around 10" is the norm. With buckshot at ten yards (the longest shot in my home), my wife can cover the pattern with her hand.

Now, 8 shot patterns like basketball at 5 yards. 6 isn't much better. By the time I get to ten yards, I have more shot off the paper than on it. I dont get decent patterns until I get to 4 buck, and I cant recall how big they were, as I only bought a few boxes for testing (I only by buck and rifled slugs now).

If those pellets dont hit the BG, they have to go somewhere else. If they would magically miss my wife and daughter, I may consider using a smaller shot with a larger pattern. Since they wont, I'll stick with the tighter patterns.

Ironically, I avoided replying to this thread when I saw it almost three years ago.
 
Now, 8 shot patterns like basketball at 5 yards. 6 isn't much better. By the time I get to ten yards, I have more shot off the paper than on it. I dont get decent patterns until I get to 4 buck,
Click to expand...

I keep my little 21 inch barreled Mossberg 500 tactical turkey gun by my bed loaded with 3" magnum number 6's. I have an extended X-factor choke in it. It will keep 140 pellets in a 10 inch circle at 40 yards. A fact that has proven deadly to more than a few turkeys at that range. I doubt there is a distance in my house long enough for the pattern to spread wider than a cantelope. At any range inside my house it would be devistating to human flesh but IMHO would be knocked down by the hardwood paneled interior walls a bit better than 00 buckshot would be. Thus making it a little less likely to kill someone in another room.
 
"can be lout indoors"

First hand experience tells me that a SUB SONIC .22LR from a handgun will deafen you and make your ears ring.

Any center fire handgun, and especially center fire rifle, could very well get you "punch drunk" if you don't know what to expect.
 
Yea... I want to live next to the guys that use high power rifle rounds for
in-house defense... right... maybe in the next zip code! :what:

Watch the vids Rino451 posted... no speculation there!

If you must use the big stuff...Keep the rest of us safe...
please, use frangible projectiles! :uhoh:
 
...and that 50GI is a heavy, slow, blunt nosed projectile, and it went through a yard of jelly!!! :what:
Hey Doc.. I can tell you a good 50BMG story!

Now... just think of the trusty ol' .308 blastin' bad guys in the house...
gives me the shivers.lol :eek: hehehe
 
Uncle Mike, please see post #114.

Those penetration videos you cite involved military FMJ (out of automatic weapons, at that), and have nothing, zilch, nada to do with the penetrative abilities of light civilian jacketed hollowpoints in building materials or gelatin.

9mm FMJ, .45 ACP hardball, .357 hard cast solids, and 12-gauge slugs penetrate like the dickens in building materials. That does not mean that 9mm, .45, .357, and 12-gauge cannot be used for HD purposes with appropriate loads, which is precisely the same situation with .223/5.56x45mm.
 
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