Overpenetration with FMJ. Real "danger" or just a ruse by ammo manufacturers?

[Walter W.]

I've read in various books and comments on here about FMJ overpenetrating and putting unintended targets in danger. Without getting into semantics about how "police use this and it's the best" or "FMJ doesn't expand as much as a HP" and "it will come out the other side of someone who gets shot and kill the next person in line", can somebody simply direct me to some actual factual incidences of overpenetration seriously injuring or killing an accidental bullet trap?

If a bullet is going 1200-1500 FPS wouldn't a torso slow it down quite a bit before it exits out the other side? Maybe not so much through the edge of an arm or some other type of flesh wound, but rather getting shot in the chest or head. Keep in mind I don't have combat or emergency room style experience of any kind and haven't personally witnessed the aftermath of a human getting shot.

THANX!

 

[Thernlund]

http://tallahassee.com/legacy/special/blogs/2006/10/robbery-ends-with-bullet-passing.html


-T.

 

[stevereno1]

An exit wound is nessisary in order to create an ideal "tempory" wound, which is what seperates the bullet from the arrow.

 

[Thernlund]

There's also a Massad Ayoob article out there someplace which gives some real-world examples of fatal over penetration. I can't find it though.


-T.

 

[Walter W.]

I cannot discern from the info if in that robbery it was FMJ, HP, SWC, rifle, handgun, or really any details other than it went through a shoulder and killed the next guy. Thanks for finding that link though Thernlund.

 

[littlegator]

Try this link for examples of penetration by analogy:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[wideym]

We had a problem with 62gn FMJs going through insurgents in Iraq. The wounded we found has less serious wounds than you might imagine. There was very little if any tumbling, yawing or expansion/deformation of the bullets.

While at home I shot a skunk with an AR using 55gn FMJ. It went through the skunk, an air conditioner coil and lodged in the compressor. The skunk still made it under the house and died in an unacessable place. Smelled like skunk and death for several months.

 

[Soybomb]

An exit wound is nessisary in order to create an ideal "tempory" wound, which is what seperates the bullet from the arrow.

What is a tempory wound?

As usual if you want to start reading about handguns and wounding I suggest this http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Past that, sure a fmj round can have enough energy left after going completely though a body to go through more of another body. Odds may or may not lead it on the appropriate flight path. I'd personally be more worried about the misses and what they'll penetrate. The important thing though is if your handgun round has enough energy to go all the way through the body, why would you waste it all with letting that bullet continue flying, risks aside? Put that energy to good use and make a wound that might have a diameter twice as wide as the fmj round. The better you wound your attacker, the quicker you'll stop him.

 

[mesomorphcujo]

"It went through the skunk, an air conditioner coil and lodged in the compressor."

wideym-That was one expensive shot.

 

[wideym]

$980 to replace the unit and GRANDPA WAS NOT HAPPY

 

[Diggers]

I think, from a logical point of view, that over penetration danger is mostly hype to sell other more $$ ammo.

Like Soybomb said, misses are a MUCH larger (and more logical) concern, and in a combat shooting situation there probably will be misses.

I think your assessment is also correct that most, if any ammo, after passing through a torso will just not have enough energy left to seriously wound another person.

The only examp of this really happening that I know of is the assassination of JFK.....but of course a rifle is NOT a hand gun.

 

[C-grunt]

Massad Ayoob had an article of an officer shooting a guy with a FMJ through the gut and it exiting and striking another officer causing injury. In the same article he wrote about 2 SWAT type officers ending a hostage situation with a couple 45 hard ball and the rounds exiting and striking the hostage.

It can happen, but I agree that misses are more of a concern.

 

[Stephen21B]

Sorry for the horrible picture quality, but here are some results from an unscientific test I performed a while back from left to right we have 3 124gr 9mm luger jhp a 95gr 9mm Makarov jhp and a 303 british softpoint all of these where fired into 12 inches of Pine all the hollowpoints failed to expand and have wood plugging the hole the soft-point obviously exanded and about blew the boards apart it seems to me that hollowpoints have the potential to become little more than full metal jacket anyway

 

[VirgilCaine]

While at home I shot a skunk with an AR using 55gn FMJ. It went through the skunk, an air conditioner coil and lodged in the compressor. The skunk still made it under the house and died in an unaccessable place. Smelled like skunk and death for several months.

Mental note:

AC units are concealment, not cover.

 

[BlackBearME]

Mental note:

AC units are concealment, not cover.

Actually, I think you have it backwards. The round lodged in the compressor. I think I'm going to stack old AC units on the inside walls of my house. Probably 2-deep, I don't think 1 will stop a .30-06.

Now skunks, on the other hand, definitely not cover.

 

[Harvster]

While at home I shot a skunk with an AR using 55gn FMJ. It went through the skunk, an air conditioner coil and lodged in the compressor.

Dang that pesky rule #4.

 

[mesomorphcujo]

Ok. I don't know the bullet weight or brand but years ago I shot a dumpster with an Uberti .357. The bullet was a semi-jacketed hollowpoint and it went completely through the dumpster and lid which was collapsed into the dumpster for who knows what reason. Dumpster was empty and while looking for the bullet damage I found the jacket of the bullet in pieces inside. Now that's overpenetration.

Ok, I know! It's hard to believe that I actually hit a dumpster and from across the parking lot even.

 

[1911Tuner]

A bit of logic may help...

Assuming that the shooter never misses, overpenetration of a perp's body can be a concern. A miss with a hollowpoint of like mass will likely result in more penetration through hard material because hollowpoints tend to collapse inward in hard stuff instead of expanding...and because most hollowpoints are loaded to higher pressures and velocities than their FMJ counterparts...errant shots are more likely to go further and retain more energy for a longer distance.

Even with a good shot...hollowpoints don't always expand, and...because they're loaded to higher velocities...if one fails to expand, it will still overpenetrate and retain more energy coming out the other side.

And finally...Not all perps are created equal. Some are large and muscular, and some are more lightly constructed. One of the meanest, most dangerous
hombres that I ever knew was 6 feet tall and weighed about 145 pounds.
A truly skilled and wicked knife man if there ever was one.

 

[ceetee]

But... but... but... I saw it on CSI...





That said, my opinion would be if you're in an situation where you're shooting to save your life, or the life of someone else, the ONLY important issue is to hit your opponent - as many times as needed to end the threat. Worrying about through-and-throughs and amd misses is mainly going to distract you from issue number 1,

You should carry the gun you can shoot the best with, and you should shoot a good quality ammunition that works well in that gun. Bigger holes are better, and holes that go all the way through the body let the blood out faster (which makes them more effective, generally), but a Death-o-Matic .75 loaded with depleted uranium explodo-bullets still won't do you any good if you miss your target...

 

[buzz_knox]

For those interested in (or disbelieving of) the problem of overpenetration, find a Louis Awerbuck course and take it. Not only can he help teach you how to deal with the threat and your backstop (so you don't become a threat to others), but he has many contacts in LE across the country and the real story on overpenetration. A lot of it doesn't make sources avaiable to us.

It is, in fact, a real problem and not the myth some claim it to be.

 

[1911Tuner]

It is, in fact, a real problem and not the myth some claim it to be.

Sure it is. Any time ya got lead screamin' through the air, it's a potential hazard. Thankfully, there's more air out there than there is meat...but like the man said:

"You've got to be lucky every time he pulls the trigger. He only has to get lucky once."

 

[Old Fuff]

Overpenetration can be a blessing if you have to shoot through light cover to reach whoever...

While there are some danger's associated with overpenetration, a lot of the risk depends on where the shooting occurs. There is a big difference between an urban environment and the middle of the Arizona desert.

There are of course documented cases of injury or death because of overpenetration, but such examples are few and far between. Regardless, the greater worry is a bullet, its construction not withstanding, that misses the intended target and keeps going.

 

[M2 Carbine]

The worse case of over penetration I've seen is in the video, "Deadly Effects".

A dead BG's back is shown that is covered with 9mm exit wounds.
They said the BG was shot 43 (yes 43) times with HP bullets that didn't expand and went through him like FMJ.
The BG WAS STILL FIGHTING and it took 2 or 3 12ga slugs to put him down.
I counted about 25 9mm exit wounds in the BG's back and a couple 12ga holes.


I would not liked to be standing behind that BG.

 

[Hokkmike]

Certainly something that could be tested!

 

[1911Tuner]

Certainly something that could be tested!

'Fraid that's flawed too...unless you can find a few volunteers to be shot.

Ballistic gelatin only approximates average muscle tissue density, and the human body isn't made up entirely of that tissue. Gelatin is a good medium to compare how different bullets will behave...but that's about as far as it goes.