Overpenetration with FMJ. Real "danger" or just a ruse by ammo manufacturers?

[Agouti]

The worse case of over penetration I've seen is in the video, "Deadly Effects".

Linky?

 

[VirgilCaine]

Actually, I think you have it backwards. The round lodged in the compressor. I think I'm going to stack old AC units on the inside walls of my house. Probably 2-deep, I don't think 1 will stop a .30-06.

I've worked with my father, who is an HVAC repairman, on many, many residential air conditioners, and I've seen lots of AC units.

This is like saying a car is cover because the engine stops bullets. The rest of the car won't do that.
Neither will the coil of an AC unit, apparently.

You could try stacking up the compressors, but those don't stack up so well.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

A bit of logic may help...
Assuming that the shooter never misses, overpenetration of a perp's body can be a concern. A miss with a hollowpoint of like mass will likely result in more penetration through hard material because hollowpoints tend to collapse inward in hard stuff instead of expanding...and because most hollowpoints are loaded to higher pressures and velocities than their FMJ counterparts...errant shots are more likely to go further and retain more energy for a longer distance.
Even with a good shot...hollowpoints don't always expand, and...because they're loaded to higher velocities...if one fails to expand, it will still overpenetrate and retain more energy coming out the other side.
And finally...Not all perps are created equal. Some are large and muscular, and some are more lightly constructed. One of the meanest, most dangerous

Oh, Oh: uhoh:. Now you've done it! You actually entered LOGIC?
Who do you think you are??? The MODERATOR? Oh... I guess you are....
Hey, this is an excellent piece on over penetration... congratulations - you will be quoted!

 

[littlegator]

but a Death-o-Matic .75 loaded with depleted uranium explodo-bullets still won't do you any good if you miss your target...

But if the BG dies of cancer from uranium exposure a couple years after the fact... At least that's something, right? Always look for the positives.

 

[collateral]

While at home I shot a skunk with an AR using 55gn FMJ. It went through the skunk, an air conditioner coil and lodged in the compressor.

I use black hills 55 grain FMJ and ive never had problems with it not tumbling and fragmenting when i shoot something with it.

 

[lesjones]

I don't worry about over-penetration of handgun rounds

As others have noted, the misses are far more dangerous to bystanders than the hits.

From the FBI's Notes on the 10mm (.pdf link):

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might "over-penetrate" the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

 

[BlackBearME]

I've worked with my father, who is an HVAC repairman, on many, many residential air conditioners, and I've seen lots of AC units.

This is like saying a car is cover because the engine stops bullets. The rest of the car won't do that.
Neither will the coil of an AC unit, apparently.

You could try stacking up the compressors, but those don't stack up so well.

Oh, I know that, I was mostly being facetious. Unfortunately, my facetiousness isn't that great at 6 in the AM. I gotta stop that.

And, on topic, I've always wondered about this, in case I happen to have to shoot someone (in self-defense) with FMJ. I hope I never have to.

 

[40SW]

Interesting thread. The most helpfull data will obviously come from a time before the advent of hollow points. The question is of course, is there sufficient data from a time before hollowpoints to make a case. Furthermore, why limit the discussion to strictly FMJ vs HP/JHP, for the longest time, police agencies used full and semi wadcutter ammunition in revolvers. Lets think outside the box.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

We had a problem with 62gn FMJs going through insurgents in Iraq. The wounded we found has less serious wounds than you might imagine. There was very little if any tumbling, yawing or expansion/deformation of the bullets.

Were you carrying an M16, or an M4? It's widely known that the 5.56 NATO round needs velocity for the terminal tumbling to take place. It could be counted on out to a couple of hundred meters when firing 55-grain ammo from M16s with 20" barrels. Increase the bullet weight to 62 grains and you lose some velocity. Then stick that heavier load in an M4 with a 14-1/2" barrel and you don't carry the necessary velocity for tumbling much beyond 50 or 75 meters.

Which is why most of the home defense ammo I keep for my 16" AR-15 is the 55-grain variety. I have a small cache of 62-grain in the event I need to shoot through a vehicle door at close range, but that's most likely a real zombie story.

 

[1911Tuner]

It's widely known that the 5.56 NATO round needs velocity for the terminal tumbling to take place.

More closely related to bullet length and rate of twist in the barrel. The early M16s with their 1:14 twist and 55-grain boattail bullets were devastating out to 200 yards. Later M16A1s with the same ammo and 1:12 rate were less so, and it was documented.

 

[Ron James]

About 10 to 15 years a go in Phoenix, a gentleman took a bad shot at some men who were leaving in a car, the .38 special slug went through two side windows of the car, continued across the street, and hit a young woman tourist who was in a poolside lounge chair, in the head, and yes it killed her. Yes, the gentleman lost his .38 and his freedom for 6 years. Hype to sell more expensive ammo, I don't thing so. If he had used hollow points, it might ( might, will never know for sure) have broken up enough to slow. That's just conjecture on my part. Shot placement is the best solution, knowing when to shoot the next best, and knowing what is on the other side of the target is absolutely necessary in all situations

 

[MICHAEL T]

Sorry for the horrible picture quality, but here are some results from an unscientific test I performed a while back from left to right we have 3 124gr 9mm luger jhp a 95gr 9mm Makarov jhp and a 303 british softpoint all of these where fired into 12 inches of Pine all the hollowpoints failed to expand and have wood plugging the hole the soft-point obviously exanded and about blew the boards apart it seems to me that hollowpoints have the potential to become little more than full metal jacket anyway

People are not made of wood Try water jugs Were more water than wood. Line up about 5 and then check results


In 45 I carry DPX if Ball is all their is or old GI 1911. Then Ball will work fine 45 has less overpentration problem than 9mm.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Considering that in real gunfights, more rounds miss the target than hit it. I think that shot placement is more vital than using JHP's. On that note, I still prefer JHP's for my 9mm.

I would be less worried about my rounds that exit the target, than the ones that miss entirely.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I use black hills 55 grain FMJ and ive never had problems with it not tumbling and fragmenting when i shoot something with it.

First, Black Hills is quality ammo and is probably more consistent from lot to lot in how it behaves. Second, M193 typically has a neck of around 3-4" before it begins to tumble and fragment; which probably means it exited the skunk before it even began to tumble. In that case, no tumbling, no shredding the temporary cavity - just a .223 hole in and out.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Considering that in real gunfights, more rounds miss the target than hit it. I think that shot placement is more vital than using JHP's. On that note, I still prefer JHP's for my 9mm.
I would be less worried about my rounds that exit the target, than the ones that miss entirely.

This is a real problem in the gunfight scene on the street it seems.

Many mention the wood, wool, leather and cotton that fill the hollow point and make it not hollow any more. Hmmm
Think I'll stick to the ones I shoot. Semi wad cutter design, traveling at 1400+ fps out of my 357 Sig.

 

[Soybomb]

This is a real problem in the gunfight scene on the street it seems.

Actually it might have been at one time but it seems like modern hollow points handle it quite well. After all one of the most basic performance tests used on ammo today is to shoot it into a block of gelatin through many layers of fabric. Most seem to perform well still. In fact even as far back as 1991 it didn't seem that bad. There was a study in the 1991 Wound Ballistics Review Jounal by Eugene Wolberg where he checked out the real world performance of the 147 gr winchester load in those shot by the san diego pd. Out of 28 bullets that penetrated that soft tissue of the torso, the smallest diameter of the recovered bullet was .462" and the average was .541" Thats an average of like 52% expansion, not bad at all.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Shooting A/C Units

FWIW; releasing CFCs into the atmosphere is punishable by a $50,000.00 fine or 5 years in prison or both. Just another reason to be sure of your background.

 

[strambo]

I don't carry HP's due to fear of over-penetration. I carry them because handgun rounds don't go fast enough for the temporary cavity to damage tissue. Therefore, the only damage is from the permanent cavity. So, a Gold Dot that goes from .356" to ~.58" is a lot better than an FMJ that stays .356" the whole way through. Worse case, it clogs and I get hardball performance...on the other side hardball won't ever do better.