Overrated???

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I had a M16A1 while in the active Army 86-90. I today, right now, have an AK clone.

I could hit things at 300m far easier with the M16, than I can with the AK.

The AK is far easier to clean. Then again so was the M60 machinegun compared to an M16.

The M16 did suffer occasional jams which were easily cleared. My AK has had 1 jam, also easily cleared, out of several thousand rounds.

I consider both good rifles with each having it's own strong and weak points.

Recently on the Mil Channel, they rated the top 10 rifles of the world. Most here already have heard or seen this, but for those who have not, AK #1, M16 #2. I would agree.

*thought the list was a touch bogus though as it only gave the Mosin Nagant rifles an honorable mention... kooky talk! :rolleyes:
 
OP said:
it's easy to build, easy to break down, and clean!
it's easy to build, easy to break down and clean, it's accurate, modular, multi-calibre, lightweight, handy, low-recoiling, good sights, good ergonomics.....the list goes on about the AR platform.
 
Not true. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have dumped free AKs in order to purchase M16s. The weapon is also used by groups as diverse as Hamas and FARC - neither of which can legally purchase M16s.

Well Hamas etc obtain the weapon through illegal means, and from Israeli soldiers. Israel was given all their AR rifle about 20 years ago, that is why they use the older A1 models. Many Asian countries also where given older M16s in military aide deals.
There are several nations that did adopt the M16 or M4 platform on their own accord. Canada and Denmark come to mind. They use the Canadian Diemaco variant as do many other countries that adopt it. The Diemaco C8 is a popular weapon with many special forces units around the world, including the British SAS. Georgia just adopted the M4 carbine because the prime minster likes the rifle.

Still the majority of nations that adopted the M16s because they were free, or sold at reduced prices. Many of those nation, such as Israel are replacing their aging rifles with new technologies.
 
I'm rather suprised nobody caught this yet...

I have sighted in guns for a State Senator, now a Judge. He was unable to understand the concept that moving the sight blade right meant the bullet moved right.

Last time I checked if you move the sight blade right then the bullet impact will move left, not right ;)
 
Vern Humphrey wrote: "MacNamara ordered it adopted -- primarily to show the generals he was in charge, and to boost the economy of the northeast -- where he and the Kennedys came from, and where the rifle was made."

McNamara was a California boy. He taught at Harvard for a little while, but I wouldn't say he was from the Northeast.

Diverting contracts from the M14 to the M16 seems like a strange way of helping the Northeast, given that the former was made by Springfield and H&R (in Mass.), TRW (in Ohio), and Olin (in Connecticut).
 
Last time I checked if you move the sight blade right then the bullet impact will move left, not right

Sorry, I was thinking of the Judge's M629 and the rear sight blade. Trying to explain to him about turning the screws and the direction which the rear sight blade moved, and then which way the bullet "moved".

You are correct about front sights. And you would be correct that making a sight adjustment moves the point of impact, not the bullet.

As a kid, when I asked about why we have night and day, my Mom told me it was because "the Sun goes up in the morning and comes down at Night". At the time, that was good enough, and all the information I needed to know.
 
Not true. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have dumped free AKs in order to purchase M16s. The weapon is also used by groups as diverse as Hamas and FARC - neither of which can legally purchase M16s.

Toss in Israel as well. They largely warehoused the Galil and purhcased more 16s (often Vietnam era surplus) and modified them to mee their demands.

And yes, Israel gets a lot of American dollars. But those are the same funds they spend on items like aircraft (F-15s and F-16s), electronics, etc . . . and they still budgeted those funds for M16s.

I don't think SAS gets Americand funding, but they do use 16s in preference to other weapons.
 
Did anyone watch the History Channel's program on the M16? I found it interesting but defer to the expertise in this forum if it was factual.
 
Did anyone watch the History Channel's program on the M16? I found it interesting but defer to the expertise in this forum if it was factual.

Yes, it was interesting. The whole episode was created around a David versus Goliath theme, with Stoner and his corporate backers being the virtuous David.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Army was happy with the M14 and was not interested in spending time or money evaluating his rifle. Unfortunately there was no one from the Testing side of the house to reply to Stoner's claims of sabotage during the Artic Tests. It has been my experience, that when a Contractor’s piece of equipment fails, the Contractor never accepts the blame. Instead they do whatever they can to shift the blame to anyone or anything but never themselves. Therefore to understand what really went on, you need at least two sides to the story.
 
Its a good weapon, but tis not worth $1,000+ . Especially considering that its competition is commonly available for 1/2 the price. That has more to do with marketing and the tactical craze than design superiority.
 
I love the AR15. Overrated? I guess it depends on how you feel about it personally. To me, no way is it overrated.

However, mine work and work well.
 
The AR rifles...again

First, just a little bit of background. so you know my opinions did not come just from something I read on the internet.

I was an Army Small Arms repairman from 75-78 and I handled, inspected, and repaired literally thousands of M16A1 rifles. I have built (assembled) AR rifles, and I have been a shooter and reloader for close to 40 years.

The AR rifles today are the result of 40+ years of tweaking to correct the flaws in the original design, and the flaws in application of the original design that appeared to be flaws in the design.

There are two basic components to the AR rifles, the guns themselves, and the cartridge. The 5.56mm round is puny, compared to every military rifle round before it. In the majority of states it is not powerful enough to legally hunt deer. Whenever you compare it against a larger caliber round, it will be found wanting. However, for what the military wants (today) it serves well enough.

The AR rifle design has some great features, and some that are less than the best possible. As others have said, the military got the AR rammed down their throat by the MacNamara defense dept, those same bean counters who were responsible for the removal of more weapons and weapons systems from the US military than would have been lost to a Soviet nuclear first strike!

Over enough time, we have gotten most of the bugs out of the system, aside from those which cannot be altered as long as we stay with the basic AR design.

For all those who claim things like "nobody ever complained about the .30-06" or "they carried the M1 to hell and back without complaining", I got news for you. They complained. They bitched. They whined and sniveled, just like soldiers today do. They did it about the M1, they did it about the 1903 Springfield, and about the rifle-musket. I'm pretty confidant they bitched about the weight of the spears, swords, axes, clubs, and rocks used from day one. It is something soldiers do. When soldiers aren't complaining, watch your butt!

But one thing I never heard of was anyone complaining that their M1 wouldn't kill the enemy. Yes, it is heavy, by today's standards. And they thought it was heavy back then. But they knew that heavy meant sturdy. Blocking a German bayonet lunge, or buttstroking a Banzai charging Japanese called for a weapon that was rugged. I don't know about the latest AR rifles, but I can tell you from experience that many times Vietnam troops had to go hand to hand with their M16s, and found themselves with two pieces of broken rifle afterward. Light weight has drawbacks. So does heavy. There is no free lunch. Don't think those WWII vets cared about the weight? Just look at any picture from WWII, not taken in the midst of actual combat. And look at the number of rifles who's butt in on the ground. Nearly all. When you don't have to carry it, you don't.

Many,many things have changed since those days. Military doctrine has undergone major changes since WWII. The guys who landed on Guadalcanal with 1903 Springfields (Marines, who hadn't gotten M1 Garands yet, because there weren't enough to go around yet) were given 40 rounds of ammo, and that was expected to last them two weeks in combat! We sure have come a long way. In those days, riflemen were taught to shoot only when they had a target. Suppressive fire was the job of the machinegun. We did learn that in combat there are drawbacks to that philosophy, but it took some time.

With AR rifles, every troop carries a (light) machinegun, or did until they took away the full auto setting.

the M16 is very easy to shoot. Current designs shoot well. The military doesn't train soldiers to be riflemen today like they did generations ago. WWI troops were taught to hit man size targets at 600 yards, and area targets at 1200, with their bolt action .30-06 rifles! When I was in, we were taught to hit at the tremendous range of 300 meters! And they didn't bother to spend the time needed to ensure the majority could do even that!

As shooters, lots of us understand what is rifle is for. What it can do, and what it is not so good at. And we all want our equipment to be the best it can be, because when it is real, it is our butt on the line. The military has a slightly different view. The lives of the individual soldiers are not the most important thing. The mission is. Lives are important, and should not be wasted, but the mission is the most important thing. And if you can get the mission accomplished with what you have, better equipement is a low priority.

The AR is the most popular military type rifle today (in the USA) because there is no real alternative. The reason the AR has been constantly upgraded and improved, instead of being replaced is cost. There is nothing in the pipeline that is a significant enough advantage over the AR to overcome the cost of replacing the huge investment that 40+ years of AR use has built up. Aftermarket gadget designers make thing for the AR, because they want to make money. They make money by selling the most of their product that they can. So they make it for the AR, because there are more AR out there than other things. And people buy ARs because there are so many aftermarket add ons. The cycle builds on itself. The Ruger 10/22 is the most accessorised .22 on the market, and a huge seller because of that. And because it is a huge seller, lots of people make accessories, etc. It is a fine gun to start with, but not significantly better than many other .22s. But all the neat stuff you can get for them.....you get the picture?
 
Okay here it goes... Carpal tunnel anyone???

Really? In what ways did you find it not meeting your expectations? My experience has been the opposite. The more I train with the AR, the more I appreciate it compared to other rifles. What kind of training did you do with it in the military?

We did the normal training with it annually at the range 200-300-500yard line, but also I was stationed in 29stumps (29 palms CA) and it nothing but desert, the weapon would jam almost every time I went to the range and let me tell you I cleaned the hell outta this weapon before and after the range (white glove style) Lubed it real nice before the range, not excessively but a nice slick layer and then stored it with a really thin layer as they wanted us too. None the less the weapon would still jam. I inspected the hell outta the thing as well for burrs nicks dings scratchs you name it. The only thing I wouldn’t check was the measurements on it to see if they were still within the thousandths of an inch of tolerance. I may just have been issued (3) bad rifles in my time. But at least now you know what I did for training. Oops forgot to add we did role playing as well it’s called DTC (Defensive Tactics Course) we shoot blanks and paintball rounds out in the desert and even with this I had mis-fires FTF FTE jams you name it. Hell I’d rather carry the 249saw or the 240B/G (Bravo being the army versions and the Gulf being the Marine’s)

How can you call something "overrated" or "underrated" or anything else, when it has little definition except for certain standard dimensions? Is the Picatinny Rail overrated? Is the 1" scope overrated? How about sling swivel studs?

I don’t think that you are really directing this at me, but just for clarification purposes I did say and I quote
I just can't help but FEEL that this weapon system is just overrated.
Thank you…

It is and it isn't. The AR 15 was rejected by both the Army and Marines, although as you might expect, a few people here and there liked it.

MacNamara ordered it adopted -- primarily to show the generals he was in charge, and to boost the economy of the northeast -- where he and the Kennedys came from, and where the rifle was made.

The M16s we were issued in Viet Nam were truly POSes. But since then, there have been literally thousands of changes to the rifle. It's a different rifle now, and the ammo is also much different.

We have changed our tactics to adapt to the weapon, minimizing its weaknesses and capitalizing on its strong points.

We have innumerable accessories, parts, tools and so on in stock -- it isn't just a rifle anymore, it's a complete system.

And we have a huge institutional memory on the M16. Currently serving Sergeants Major cut their teeth on this rifle, know it inside out, and don't have experience with other rifles and tactics.

Well spoken my friend well spoken…

Consider the weight difference when you load up with a minimum 210 rounds.

11C2V what branch of service are you in? We in the USMC only carry 180rounds (6 mags full 30rds a piece) same goes for us fake guys in the ARNG.

The Marines solved their problems by going to heavier bullets.

Okay Doug here we go, my fabulous friend, with our debating LoL I love this… PLEASE do explain what you meant by this??? Thanx

I thought the Marines are still using 20" M16A4 rifles as their general-issue weapons.

When I was in MOST of the infantry units had or were switch(ed/ing) over to that model but as of now I am not sure and can’t really fight that statement or agree with it.

I just keep wondering why you keep making mistakes on nomenclature after spending 4 years(?) in the USMC

Corrections my friend reread my original post I typed
along with some that would claim the M1A1 was king.
Thank you…

USMCDK
 
44AMP brings up an interesting point. When I was a young recruit, bayonet training was very vigorous -- we bashed, slashed, lunged, parried, and bashed and slashed some more. And we used our own issue M1 rifles. Then we used those same rifles to qualify with.

Later, when I was a training company commander in between tours in Viet Nam, we'd have had a heart attack if someone suggested we have the troops use M16s like that.
 
Toss in Israel as well. They largely warehoused the Galil and purhcased more 16s (often Vietnam era surplus) and modified them to mee their demands.

But Israel has also decided to ditch the M16 in favor of an AK based rifle.
 
The Tavor appears to be an AK derivative. I haven't managed to find a diagram yet of it's operating system, but the descriptions I have read describe it as a long stroke gas piston with the piston attached to the bolt carrier and there aren't too many other designs like that.
 
5.56mm = great for selective fire and full auto. Light recoil + flat-shooting bullet = great accuracy in bursts.

Now, we lowly, untrustworthy peasants, will only be firing semi-auto, so, unless you are adverse to recoil, you can get something with a little more umpf for your black rifle.

AK-47: I honestly do not see the appeal. It's the pug of the rifle world. Sorry, but I am vain.

AR-10: Fine, fine, fine rifle. The new sniper system being adopted by the military is based on it. It is also highly customizable like the AR-15, and has specialty chamberings popping up, too.

M14/1A: One of the finest rifles ever made.

M1: It might not have a detachable magazine, but it will do damn near anything a black rifle can and with style. :cool:

But, if you want 5.56mm, you are not going to beat the AR-15. Not for aesthetics, not for ergonomics, not for functionality. You could get rifles like the Ruger Mini or that Keltec rifle that, if you fold down the foregrip, it turns into optimus prime or something, I don't know. But the AR-15 is still the king in 5.56mm -- just like the 1911 is the king of the .45 ACP.

P.S. .... don't forget the Beowulf...:evil::evil::evil:

P.S.S. Someone mentioned the IDF. God bless Israel.
 
Sounds like most everything has been said here but it doesn't mean I'm not going to put in my bit.

I hate to sound too Clintonesque, but it depends on how you define overrated. If you're talking about some of the people who worship the AR15 at the mighty alter of black rifles then yes, it's overrated. Of course that's only because the ones oyu are judging have small minds that have been sent out into the real world too soon.

As a weapon the M16 has proven itself. Yes, the early versions in 'Nam sucked. They have done much since then to improve on it. Whether it was because McNamara wanted to show how tough he was or whatever the reason the weapon survived, improved, and now dominates. Maybe they could have chosen a better design but it's what we have, it's worked well for a long time.

The 350 analogy is a great one. It worked well for a long time but it would have been much more efficient if Chevy had decided to stuff a short block diesel in their trucks.
 
This is all too true. I have to admit that the weapon has come a long- drawn-out, far-dragged thru the mud way and does have it's utter fine points. I do like the weapon system, when it works, like the brand new ones that only you have fired.

One other thing that I forgot to add to how I cleaned my rifle was I took the barrel, gas tube attached, and soaked the heck outta it in a solution/solvent tank for about an hour. Then I would take it out and use a brass brush (tubular in shap and long about 4in and run that puppy in and out of the gas tube just to get out all that carbon. Talk about black sludge, it looked like over done coffee that had been sitting on the warmer for 10hrs. I did this about three times just to make sure I got the most of it out. Let me tell you the weapon shot damn near like a charm after that. Never did do it again though, cause me armorer threw some kinda wild fit about me doing that. something about not having the authority to clean the gas tube in fear of ruining it or some crap. *SIGH* you just can't please 'em all can ya???
 
The AR /M16 platform has seen success for the same reason the majority of us use IBM clone computers with windows based operating system.

It's the "'industry standard". Yes there is better more efficient out there. But so many use it, the cost is less and there is more "stuff" out there for it.

You should also understand that the people that make the decision on the weapon that is used are not the one carrying it. They just pay for it. If they can keep cost down, and get something that works "OK", well why not. It's not their but on the line.
 
It will take the literal "next step" (whatever that may entail) in personal weaponry to replace the AR.

When it was initially fielded the AR was a drastic departure from what the US military was using. We will need the same type of change to displace the AR platform from the military (and the currently vogue new chamberings and piston designs are only modifications, not real dramatic changes).
 
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