Anyone looked at the HK XM-8

[Commissar Gribb]

I believe there is such a rifle. I think it's called the M16.

who cares if the company that owns the plant is belgian

 

[GunGoBoom]

I'll just say the Robarm XCR is better looking without the 'fishtail' stock of the SCAR or XM8 - retains (more of) the look of the principle US small arm (M16 family), which is now a classic US of A look for a .mil rifle, like it or not. And ding dong, the witch may be dead as far as the military goes, but I still want a 6.5 grendel upper - the variants of cartridges that fit AR mags, with a little bigger bullets, are still useful for civilians.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

with a little bigger bullets, are still useful for civilians.

especially if we *gasp* see another low-cap magazine enforcement law in the future.

 

[Raygun]

Jeff pretty well summed it up with regards to the XM-8 and its short comings. H&K came to the Army with the weapon and when the Army objected to things like the mag well and mounts, H&K was right there saying "Oh but this is no problem, we have these to mount your stuff on!" and tried to force feed the adapters and new optics on us.

Well, if HK was trying to "force feed" anything to anyone, it obviously didn't work. Aside from that, it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to figure out that the PCAP mounts can mount M1913 rail adapters that will work with any in-stock M1913 accessory, with the bonus of the rail being quick-detachable to the PCAP. The new optic, if it works as advertised, is a downright HUGE improvement over the dated, bulky systems performing the same function that are currently in stock. As for the magazine, the STANAG magazine has not proven itself to be the most reliable piece of equipment out there. Offering an improvement over it in a new weapon system was IMO a wise decision, no matter what the logistical inertia. As for any reliability issues with the XM8, until I see some proof of that from the people here who keep saying it, I'm going to continue to consider it conjecture.

What HK did was try to offer a better alternative to the M4/M16. And they apparently did so through a "back door" not totally unlike the one Colt stuck its foot in to get the M16 adopted. I also think it's pretty obvious that the Army was looking into a new rifle design, what with a new carbine being a part of the OICW system and all (which, BTW, was the precursor to the XM8 with a STANAG magazine).

As for the future of the XM8, ARDEC's OICW Increment 1 Request for Proposal, which was delayed by the DOD for a Joint Requirements Oversight Committee hearing in September, is, AFAIK, still going ahead. Anyone who has seen the original proposal should take note of what kind of weapon system it outlines. It pretty much screams "XM8!" Care to take a guess as to why that is?

 

[PvtPyle]

As for any reliability issues with the XM8, until I see some proof of that from the people here who keep saying it, I'm going to continue to consider it conjecture.

Probably the best way to do that is either get a POC at TACOM, or talk to some of the Rangers who were part of the testing. While I was at the SOF Armorers course I had the oportunity to do just that. And while we were talking about it some of the staff at Crane contributed their negative input.

Either way, I am glad as hell that I wont ever have to carry the Nazi POJ. But thats just me, I fell off the H&K bandwagon a long time ago.

 

[Raygun]

Obviously. Calling it a "Nazi POJ" pretty much killed what could be considered any kind of objectivity on your part.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

Either way, I am glad as hell that I wont ever have to carry the Nazi POJ. But thats just me, I fell off the H&K bandwagon a long time ago.

I heard that hitler himself had a lot of interest in the XM8 project..


I suppose you've never carried a beretta that shoots lugar bullets have you?

 

[PvtPyle]

I never said I was objective. I own several H&K's including a few MP-5's and HK-91's. But after reading some of the AARs from, and talking to the Rangers I was at the school with, I can honestly say IMHO it is a POJ. The Nazi thing goes back a long time to an H&K school I went to. The fact that the company was part of the Nazi war machine is an entirely different issue.... Now if they were to field the G-36 I could live with that. The Lith SOF we worked with had them and I like that "Nazi" gun. It helps that it is a modified American design.....

And yes, I may have shot a Beretta once or twice. Thanks God we are getting rid of that anemic Nazi caliber ( ) and going back to the .45 across the board. Regretably it is going to be fired from another H&K "Nazi POJ"!

Look, I dont care if they give us an H&K. I have not seen anything positive about it other than the factory rhetoric. Their M-416 uppers are the heat and I wish we could get them until we get fielded the SCAR. We are getting .45 USP's and I can live with that. But the only way I will sign onto the XM-8 bandwagon is for them to send us a bunch and we will see how long it takes the apes I work with to tear them to shreds (they do that to everything it seems, so longevity is the key). And I will be retired before the OCIW program is done, so if it is an H&K, I wont be around.

Sorry if I offended anyone who still thinks the firearms sun rises and sets in H&K.

 

[Red Dragon]

From what I have read, the entire OICW project has been completely abandoned. That's why H&K decided to develop the XM-8. From the info I got from the guy at H&K R&D. The OICW was abandoned because of size issues, weight issues, part issues, etc. so they moved on to another alternative and started on the XM-8 weapons system.

 

[PvtPyle]

I also understand that it was dead (see old Army Time articles and Military.com early bird emails, I wont search them for you). But the message traffic from TACOM says they will keep it alive, but the message between the lines is that the funding has been cut really hard.

 

[Red Dragon]

When I read the initial reports of the development of the OICW project a few years back, I thought it was a facinating project, but the more they tested it and the more companies that bid for the project, the more it seemed to be a little unrealistic IMHO. I personally think the OICW project should be abandoned and funding be transfered more to the weapons systems like the XM-8. Not necessarily the XM-8 but a weapons system like it.

 

[Raygun]

I never said I was objective.

No kidding. I'm suggesting that you should be.

I own several H&K's including a few MP-5's and HK-91's. But after reading some of the AARs from, and talking to the Rangers I was at the school with, I can honestly say IMHO it is a POJ.

Well, sorry, but third person opinions don't carry a lot of water for me. I'm not about to go out on a limb and say a project is entirely dead because of what some guys in an internet thread says some guys he knew a while back said they thought the thing sucked. It's not a very rational approach, see?

The Nazi thing goes back a long time to an H&K school I went to. The fact that the company was part of the Nazi war machine is an entirely different issue....

This is the kind of crap I abhor seeing people rumormonger on the internet. It is absolutely false.

Now if they were to field the G-36 I could live with that. The Lith SOF we worked with had them and I like that "Nazi" gun.

You're about making no sense at all now, Pyle.

Sorry if I offended anyone who still thinks the firearms sun rises and sets in H&K.

I don't think the sun rises and sets with H&K. I think your opinions are based on something that is less than fact, and you're putting in a lot of effort into rumormongering and saying things that in the least have not been backed up by any kind of evidence in this forum or linked to it.

From what I have read, the entire OICW project has been completely abandoned. That's why H&K decided to develop the XM-8.

The initial XM29 OICW project, including the 20mm air bursting system, was abandoned in favor of splitting the two parts into the XM25 (still going) and the XM8.

The OICW Increment 1 program is a current continuation of that program, discarding the air burst system. It is the Army's solicitation for a 5.56mm multi-configurable weapon system. In other words, it represents official interest in procuring the type of weapon system HK put togther in the form of the XM8. That solicitation was recently put on hold until the Joint Requirements Oversight Committee can get everyone involved to agree on what they'd like to see in this program. It should resume next month.

5.56mm Modular Weapon System Family
Pre-Solicitation Notice for the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) Increment I family of weapons
Small Arms Weapons Program Reviewed for Joint Service Potential

 

[Jeff White]

Raygun said;

I'm not about to go out on a limb and say a project is entirely dead because of what some guys in an internet thread says some guys he knew a while back said they thought the thing sucked. It's not a very rational approach, see?

Will you take the word of a person who retired from the Army, went to work for HK on the XM8 (in fact was responsible for some of the changes they made in it), quit HK, went to work for the Army as a civilan on the XM8 program?

Go to www.lightfighter.net , search the primary weapons forum for the very long thread on the XM8 and pay particular attention to the posts of rgrgordo.

You can watch the entire XM8 story unfold and see in his posts how the project fell apart.

Gordo is a real deal guy, spent almost all of his career in the Ranger Regiment. We retired from the Army on the same day. He is in a position to know and when he told me it was dead, that was good enough for me.

I don't think the sun rises and sets with H&K. I think your opinions are based on something that is less than fact, and you're putting in a lot of effort into rumormongering and saying things that in the least have not been backed up by any kind of evidence in this forum or linked to it.

You need to be careful who you're talking to. PvtPyle is an armorer in a Special Forces group and not so long ago returned from a combat tour overseas where he was responsible for the maintenance of all his unit's small arms. the Special Operations community is pretty small and tightknight. I would say that he probably has more firsthand knowledge of what's going on then any other member posting in this thread. It pays to know who's behind the screen name so that you can judge the reliability of their posts.

In keeping with that, what's your official connection to military small arms development?

Jeff

 

[Red Dragon]

wow, I never realized when I started this thread that I would get posts from people who work/worked on the project. Cool

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I never understood the reasoning behind the XM8 to begin with (other than as a way for someone to make a lot of $$).

I mean, a modular rifle chambered in an intermediate powered catridge. We already have that in the M16 family. A quick change of uppers will bring you from carbine to rifle to DM rifle. You can mount any optic that can be mounted to a Picatinny rail (on A3 and later rifles), and ACOGs mount just fine to the carry handle of A2s.

As for the cartridge, the biggest complaint I've heard recently (meaning post-Vietnam) is complaints about the SS109 bullets not getting the job done. And that's been from the carbine users. The users of the 20" rifles haven't been complaining even about that. However with the new open tip ammo that fragments at a much lower velocity than even the 55-gr that we started with, most of THAT problem has been alleviated.

Even if we still wanted the 6.8, it's just a matter of an upper change and new magazines. I see no reason to replace the M16 family.

 

[El Tejon]

Jeff, thanks for the heads up. I am so happy that REMFer inspired Iwannacoolgunvirus was stopped cold before it could mutate and kill our boys!

Now let's use the money that was to be used for silly toys and put it toward training! Oops, hard to quantify software on a report, better go buy more silly junk.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

The Nazi thing goes back a long time to an H&K school I went to. The fact that the company was part of the Nazi war machine is an entirely different issue....

I hope you know H&K wasnt founded until long after the war right?

I mean, a modular rifle chambered in an intermediate powered catridge. We already have that in the M16 family.

I mean, a long metal bore that shoots bullets- we already have that in the musket family! oh wait those are hundreds of years old... but they're fine effective weapons!

A quick change of uppers will bring you from carbine to rifle to DM rifle.

a quick change of a few parts can change an XM8 from the 11" SMG model to the dedicated marksman or automatic rifleman version. this is the WHOLE POINT behind the project.

I am so happy that REMFer inspired Iwannacoolgunvirus was stopped cold before it could mutate and kill our boys!

now we just have to worry about Iwannadiewithmymusketvirus

 

[Vern Humphrey]

a quick change of a few parts can change an XM8 from the 11" SMG model to the dedicated marksman or automatic rifleman version. this is the WHOLE POINT behind the project.

Each soldier will have a caddy, with a golf bag full of barrels and other parts, so he can change from an SMG to a carbine to a rifle, to a sniper rifle, to an automatic rifle.

 

[PvtPyle]

I hope you know H&K wasnt founded until long after the war right?

Actually, IIRC they were making sewing machines before the war, made guns during the war for the Nazis, got run out to Spain (Cetme ring a bell?) after the war and came back to Germany when things calmed down. I will have to dig out the old company history sheet, but thats what I recall. Someone please correct me if I am incorrect here.

I think your opinions are based on something that is less than fact, and you're putting in a lot of effort into rumormongering and saying things that in the least have not been backed up by any kind of evidence in this forum or linked to it.

I guess if you had a justifiable need to know, you would get TACOM reports, or have a POC at one of the departments to get that info. I dont get 1/20th of it, but I do get enough to help Command plan for training, proposed MTOE change requests, concepts and writing MENS. And if I do have a question of piece of information I have a few POCs at Crane, TACOM, USASOC and various other places where myself or someone up my COC can go for first hand info.

Now if you have any credible info, other than PR hype from H&K, we would all be very interested in seeing it. But I am not going to post links to, or copies of information I have received thru official channels on the net for you to read. As close as you are going to get is Army Times past articles or Military.com Early Bird mailings.

In keeping with that, what's your official connection to military small arms development?

I was kind of curious about that myself. Or why he and others have such a vested interest in defending the XM-8. Are you guys going to carry one, or have a financial stake in the program or something?

The solicitations you posted could also very easily have been written to favor the SCAR or XCR since they will do all of those things as well. And they are already "Non-Developmental multi- configurable 5.56mm modular weapon system." to quote the solicitation. IIRC the XM-8 is still under re-design based on the results of the Benning tests. I have not seen anything to say it was, or to say that it has been finalized.

 

[Correia]

Heckler, Koch, and Seidel did work for the Nazis, and the Cetme, and later G3 were based on a WWII era prototype. After the war they fled to Spain.

But the G36 isn't a Nazi gun... Since it is just a PIP version of an AR18.

 

[El Tejon]

Is that PIP or PIMP, Corr?

 

[Correia]

El T. I didn't even think of that. I was thinking Product ImProved. But I suppose that you could say that it was just a Pimp AR18.

See, I was just trying to temper PvtPyle's anti-nazi posting, look where it gets me. Actually I've heard PvtPyle's reasons for dislking HK guns in person, and I'm glad that he toned it down for THR! But it is nothing compared to another friend of ours and his rant about his experience in the HK armorers school. It is a thing of beauty. Some people just get rubbed the wrong way by smug euro-teutonic superiority know it all instructors.

With that said, I like Germany. I like Bratwurst, and I'm actually listening to Rammstein right now.

 

[Raygun]

Will you take the word of a person who retired from the Army, went to work for HK on the XM8 (in fact was responsible for some of the changes they made in it), quit HK, went to work for the Army as a civilan on the XM8 program?

Absolutely.

Go to www.lightfighter.net , search the primary weapons forum for the very long thread on the XM8 and pay particular attention to the posts of rgrgordo.

This is progress. Thanks, Jeff. I'll take a look at it.

You need to be careful who you're talking to. PvtPyle is an armorer in a Special Forces group and not so long ago returned from a combat tour overseas where he was responsible for the maintenance of all his unit's small arms. the Special Operations community is pretty small and tightknight. I would say that he probably has more firsthand knowledge of what's going on then any other member posting in this thread.

I'm not real interested in who he is or what he does for a living. SOF armorer or some dude living in his parent's basement, I don't really care. What matters to me is what he's saying in this thread, and how it pertains to the XM8 and OICW-1 programs. So far what's been provided by him is a second-hand account from some Rangers and Crane guys he talked to while he was in SOF armorer's school. Good. I'm glad he was able to provide us with that information. But that info alone /= dead project. More info, please.

It pays to know who's behind the screen name so that you can judge the reliability of their posts.

You're absolutely right about that. I don't mean to be rude, but when it comes to internet forums, I don't take anyone's word for almost anything, especially those I have not yet had the opportunity to get to know better. I'm afraid I have not yet had the opportunity to get to know either of you yet, therefore, I'm skeptical about your opinions when they are not backed up by more information provided by you.

If he was someone working for HK on XM8 or someone directly related to the military program and could put some effort into providing information to us that backs up his point of view, that would be another thing. But up to this point, all that's been said by him are negative things about the XM8 (among other things) that have been backed up by nothing more than his opinions, which are, as far as I can tell from official government documentation, not necessarily fact.

I've shown you why I don't think XM8 is dead yet. I very well could be wrong. But at least I'm providing info to back up my point of view. I'm asking you, please, prove me wrong. Do your best to back up your opinions. Make me believe. I would certainly appreciate the effort.

And on that note, I thank you again for the link. That would be the kind of stuff I'm interested in seeing.

In keeping with that, what's your official connection to military small arms development?

Absolutely none. I'm just a guy in Montana who is interested in the truth behind this program, which means that I have to collate and process as much information about it as I possibly can. Obviously, a couple of people's opinions that the XM8 is dead does not necessarily make that so. Hopefully you can understand why, given the information that has been provided here so far, I'd be a bit skeptical.

Actually, IIRC they were making sewing machines before the war, made guns during the war for the Nazis, got run out to Spain (Cetme ring a bell?) after the war and came back to Germany when things calmed down. I will have to dig out the old company history sheet, but thats what I recall. Someone please correct me if I am incorrect here.

Hecker, Koch and Seidel (HK's founders) worked for Mauser during the war, making what Mauser made. Guns (among other things). They worked for the Nazis during that time because EVERYONE IN GERMANY worked for the Nazis during that time as they didn't have much choice in the matter. Especially if they were engineers working for a company that made guns.

Heckler & Koch was started in 1949, four years after WWII ended. They did make sewing machines, bicycle parts, gauges and tooling, but, AFAIK, had nothing to do with the StG45/CETME development until CETME came to them in 1954 to help with a caliber conversion to 7.62x51mm NATO. The West Germany Army tested the rifle (against the FAL, SIG510, and AR-10) and accepted the CETME/HK design for service and HK was contracted to manufacture it.

I guess if you had a justifiable need to know, you would get TACOM reports, or have a POC at one of the departments to get that info.

I guess if I did, I would. And so would you. Then you could provide us with some that backs up your point of view.

Now if you have any credible info, other than PR hype from H&K, we would all be very interested in seeing it.

I have not posted, nor have I said anything that remotely resembles HK PR hype. What I have said is that, according to the information I have been privy to thus far, some of which I have posted links to, XM8 is not dead. At least not yet. That is all I am saying.

If you have anything you can add to the infor I have posted, please provide it. If you'd rather not post it here, feel free to send me a private message. The more information I have, the better I can understand what's really going on.

But I am not going to post links to, or copies of information I have received thru official channels on the net for you to read.

Well, there goes that. So what you're telling me is I have to take your word for it. Sorry, man. At this point, I can't do that. All the information I have seen thus far, from official government sources, does not bring me to the same conclusion.

I was kind of curious about that myself. Or why he and others have such a vested interest in defending the XM-8. Are you guys going to carry one, or have a financial stake in the program or something?

No. The only stake I have in it is that I think our troops deserve a better rifle than the M4/M16, and that the XM8, as well as the SCAR and XCR, seem like viable platforms to that end.

I only defend the XM8 to such a degree because you attempt to tear it down at least at equal pace ("XM8 is DEAD"), without bothering to back up your opinions with anything more than a third person report. It. Doesn't. Make. Sense. Please, for the love of God, provide me with more information so that I can understand why you've come to this conclusion.

The solicitations you posted could also very easily have been written to favor the SCAR or XCR since they will do all of those things as well. And they are already "Non-Developmental multi- configurable 5.56mm modular weapon system." to quote the solicitation.

You're absolutely correct. I'm not saying the XM8 is any better than the SCAR or XCR. To be fair, I did say I thought they looked:

a bit clumbsy and old-fashioned compared to the XM8. Not that how things look should count for much. If the XM8 doesn't perform, it doesn't. But I get the feeling that there's a bias against plastic going on, among other things.

Which, without any evidence to back up your opinions, looks to me to be exactly what is happening.

The SCAR and XCR very well may outperform the XM8. But according to the info I have seen, that has yet to happen.

Aside from that, what weapon system do you think inspired that solicitation? What weapon system made that solicitation happen? Do you think they would make a solicitation based on that weapon system if that weapon system was DEAD? It doesn't make sense.

IIRC the XM-8 is still under re-design based on the results of the Benning tests. I have not seen anything to say it was, or to say that it has been finalized.

Neither have I. But if, to your knowledge, XM8 is currently under redesign, what leads you to believe that it's dead?

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Sorry for this off-topic rant,

The OICW program was doomed from the begining as an infantry tool. When you need explosives you need them NOW! When you need an assault rifle, using an explosive will probably get you and the B/G killed. What should have been dome(but would make too much sense) would be to have one man carry a shortee assautl rifle(G36/M4/whatever) and then make either a semi-auto 25mm grenade launcher his primary weapon. Need the Assualt rifel? Sling the big boy and clear rooms. Got an entrenched B/G? Send him a 25mm present from the semi-auto launcher. Have other troops carry some of the 25mm ammo for the grenader. It would be like precision grenade throwing ...

PS. Keep the timed fuses on the back burner till the bugs are worked out. Also keep working on the OICW program for mounted to vehicle applications,proper level of force and all ..

 

[Vern Humphrey]

What should have been dome(but would make too much sense) would be to have one man carry a shortee assautl rifle(G36/M4/whatever) and then make either a semi-auto 25mm grenade launcher his primary weapon. Need the Assualt rifel? Sling the big boy and clear rooms. Got an entrenched B/G? Send him a 25mm present from the semi-auto launcher. Have other troops carry some of the 25mm ammo for the grenader. It would be like precision grenade throwing

The fire team concept is a proven tactic. Within each team you have troops with general-purpose weapons (rifles and handgrenades) and some with special purpose weapons (automatic rifle, grenade launcher and so on.) Back that up with a weapons squad in the platoon for the heavier stuff (anti-armor and bunker busters, real machine guns, and so on.)

Trying to combine all weapons into one single, handy-dandy 50-lb package is a non-starter.