Paper cartridges for my Traditions flintlock.

[Busyhands94]

i recently acquired a Traditions Frontier flintlock rifle. seriously, this is my favorite thing i have shot and i own it. i own the funnest gun i have shot, life is good. anyway, i recently found out how to make paper cartridges for it. i don't know if there is any flaws in how i make mine, but they work perfectly given you rip the end off first. so, here is how i do it.

i first cut a bunch of paper into four inch wide sheet with a slight slant on one side. i then glue the slanted side and roll it on a wooden dowel so that i have a tube. i then fold the sides inward and smack the end of the tube onto the table to seal it. then i pour 80 grains of powder into the tube, and drop in a Minnie ball (that i cast myself of course) on top of the powder. then what i do is i twist it on top to seal the cartridge.

then, when i want to fire one off i just rip off the top, remove the Minnie ball, dump my powder down, and then ram the Minnie ball home. i leave a few granules in the bottom of the tube to prime my pan with if it is a bit windy or humid, but on the times i have gone shooting i can just use my pan priming tool. it works fabulous!

i also like to put a ball instead of a conical bullet, because i can rip off the powder end (witch i twist instead of ramming flat) then i dump the powder down, then turn it around and ram the ball wrapped in paper home. the paper acts like a patch and helps seal the bore. i prefer to use Minnie balls for longer range, but round balls for closer range. this is because the skirt on a Minnie will expand to hug the rifling of the bore. balls bounce inside the bore and can go haywire if use without a patch. but, when used with a patch they spin like a bullet should and seal better leading to better velocity. however, the ball is a ballistically inefficient projectile. it has a lot of drag, and is not accurate out to a certain distance. Minnie balls are much more accurate because they are more aerodynamic and don't have that problem with drag that balls do. i know plenty of folk know this, but in case there is a new shooter reading this i would like to enlighten them of that knowledge.

~Levi

 

[Loyalist Dave]

the ball is a ballistically inefficient projectile. it has a lot of drag, and is not accurate out to a certain distance. Minnie balls are much more accurate because they are more aerodynamic and don't have that problem with drag that balls do.

So you have been told that the lighter, patched round ball is less accurate than a conical or minnie ball? The rounded aft end of the round ball in flight has more drag than the flat aft end of the minnie? Well IF you have come across some sort of wierd conical that is an actual spitzer nosed bullet, you might be correct, but otherwise...,

The round ball, being a uniform sphere does not "tumble" in flight should it fly far enough to go transonic, and is also lighter than the conicals in the same caliber, so with a faster MV has a flatter trajectory over the same distance than a conical. Properly Patched round ball is much more accurate over longer distances on average than conicals. Yes there are special target rifles out there like the Whitworth that fires custom oblong bullets, but we are not talking exceptions to the rule. The inertia of the conical is superior on large game at impact, but not on getting to the target. Minnies were developed to increase the speed of reloads for military rifles, not to increase accuracy of the rifle of the period.

BTW if you roll the correctly roll the cartridge, you don't need glue...,

cartridge part 1

Cartridge part 2

LD

 

[4v50 Gary]

Properly Patched round ball is much more accurate over longer distances on average than conicals.

I beg to differ on that. Hits at 500-600 yards were very rare with the round ball rifle. Five hundred yard hits are very doable with a minie gun and there's a reason why the armies of the world adopted the minie gun.

 

[mykeal]

You're right, of course, about the conical being better at longer ranges. But...minie gun?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Longer ranges for the round ball are 100 yards. Yes the conicals can reach out much farther in some guns, but the trajectory is flatter due to higher MV and lack of transonic tumble out to 100 yards for the patched, round ball. The conical is better beyond 300 yards because it gets there, not because it has less turbulence. Sorry for the less than specific statement.

LD

 

[4v50 Gary]

Minie (with accent on the "e") is taken from the bullet's inventor, Capt. Claude Minie. It is pronounced with a nasally mean-knee-ay and differs from our beloved Mini-gun.

 

[mykeal]

I'm familiar with Minie ball and minigun (as in GAU-17/A), but "minie gun" had me stumped. I had visions of six 3-band Enfields stuck through a wagon wheel turned by belt driven by mules on a turnstile...

I think SWMBO is right - I need less coffee.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Well,

I did a perfectly scientific test on the effectiveness of the round ball versus the famed Minie.

I snuck up on this gorgeous 8 point buck, stood up, and threw a handful of round balls at him...

He stood there looking at me, perplexed, like... "What's your problem? I wern't a botherin you none !!!"

I grabbeb my rifle, pre-loaded with 80 grains of real 2Fg BP, and primed with real 4Fg BP priming powder...

By then, the buck knew I was up to something and took off... By the time I fired, it was pretty much a blind shot into where he had dashed off into the bush...

I missed the buck, but I blasted the hell out of a big ol redwood... As far as I am concerned, ifin I had hit the buck, I would a got him !!!

So...

Ima sticken with my Minie's !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[Voodoochile]

Depends on the rifling too, if the rifling is in the neighborhood of 1:48 like many muzzleloader today by Traditions then the PRB would be fairly anemic {sp} much beyond 100 yards but a Mini'e would give a good heave ho well beyond 200 with good stability.

1:66 would give that PRB a better chance in making it well beyond 100 yards.

 

[goon]

Accuracy is dependent on a lot more than just the projectile. A Minie may be more accurate if it engages the rifling correctly and the rifling is the right twist to stabilize it properly. A PRB may be more accurate with the right combination of ball, patch, and rifling. Still, the Minie will reach farther - all things being equal.

FWIW - Gary is one of those guys who's researched historical BP rifle shooting extensively. Search around on here and you'll have no doubt that when he speaks of something, he's not just making it up.

 

[alsask]

I never had very good luck with the Minnie ball in my Lyman Deerstalker but I suspect the rifling may be too deep. Most of the guns designed for the Minnie seem to have shallower rifling.

I have cast up a bunch of R.E.A.L. Lee conicals, and they work better than the Minnie balls I cast, but the patched round ball is still the most accurate in my rifle.

 

[Hocka Louis]

'course you could actually do it "right."

Form your tube with softish paper around a dowel with the tight-fitting ball at the "bottom" (whose three flaps are glued with a glue-stick). Rip the top off, closed with a French fold or English twist-n-string tie, with two opposed teeth. Prime and shut the pan. Pour the balance of powder down the bore. Stuff paper and ball, top first, in muzzle and ram down. Make ready. Present firelock. Give fire.



An alternative is to rip the ball out and hold it in your mouth, don't swallow it -- round or conical, THEN prime, charge, patch with the paper and spit the ball into the muzzle and ram, but, I think the more modern approach will have to do...

 

[Busyhands94]

i don't think i feel like putting a piece of lead in my mouth anytime soon. if i am correct you can get cancer from lead. did they even have knowledge of cancer back in the civil war days?

 

[frontiergander]

you can point any gun in the air and fire it and the projectile will go a long way.

A round ball can be accurate out to 200 yards but the power behind it drops off big time past 75 yards. A 490 round ball has less than 400ft lbs behind it once it hits 100 yards.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A round ball can be accurate out to 200 yards but the power behind it drops off big time past 75 yards. A 490 round ball has less than 400ft lbs behind it once it hits 100 yards.

The energy it has depends on the MV coupled with its mass. If the bullet was launched at 1000 fps then it would have much less than 400 ftlbs. at 100 yards. I have seen that very projectile pass through a whitetail doe at 110 ten yards. Ribs to ribs, and we checked the range with a LASER range finder to be sure. Powder was 70 grains of 3Fg which had been chronographed at 1500 fps MV with that load from that rifle. For that projectile to hit and just under 400 ftlbs. it would have slowed from 1500 fps to 1008 fps or less..., still plenty potent at that range.

Energy wasn't in question on this thread..., but accuracy.

Energy Calculations

LD