Papers please?

PinnedAndRecessed · May 25, 2006

I just moved from the socialist state of California to civilization.

I discovered that I can purchase a handgun from a private party at a gun show with no IDs exchanged.

Excuse me? Isn't that a little risky?

So when I purchased a handgun at a recent show, I asked the seller (private party) for his name and address. He seemed reluctant but gave me the info.

I wanted his driver's license number but didn't know how far to go.

Anyway, I had a LEO friend run the number and the gun came up clean.

My question: In states where such transactions are normal, do any of you require any ID from the seller?

oneshooter · May 25, 2006

Welcome to "The World"! Each state is different, in Texas there is no such requirement. As a general rule I get name, address, and TDL for my records. This is on both buying and selling.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

armoredman · May 25, 2006

AZ figures it's on you to make sure it's a legal transaction. Get whatever info you deem necessary, same as buying a car.

AirForceShooter · May 25, 2006

yep;
get your head out of Cali.
In a free country people are entitled to buy and sell their property as they see fit.
I'm in Florida (The Gunshine State) and we regularly buy and sell our guns in private sales all the time. It's perfectly legal.
As for requesting ID from a buyer it's up to the individual seller.
But remember in Fla there isn't any gun registration at all. The Gov hasn't a clue what you own.
I know of sellers that won't sell to someone unless the buyer has a CCW and the sale is documented. On the other hand, there are buyers that won't even tell you their name.
It's all up to the buyer and seller as to how to proceed or not.
A free market.

AFS

Sinsaba · May 25, 2006

In Virginia the law does not require me to get any form of identification. However, it seems to me that to protect myself it is prudent to at least check to make sure the individual is from Virginia. It is prudent for me to exchange a bill of sale. If this individual goes out tomorrow and kills someone with a gun I sold I want to have some proof that it wasn't a weapon in my possession.

Yes I live in a free state and can buy and sell as I wish. This also means that I can set the terms of the sale. My terms are ... "No ID, No Sale". That being said, do I run checks? Not hardly, not my job, I don't agree with it, and don't have the time/resources to do so. Mind you, I've only sold 2 handguns in my life; one to a private individual, one to a dealer.

ball3006 · May 25, 2006

You have been on this forum about....

two years so you should know better...........sounds like you need to take an orientation class on how life is in the real world..........

chris3

qajaq59 · May 25, 2006

Hmmm....Strange? You mean to say California actually allows people to move out?
I'm a bit surprised, because they don't seem to allow much of anything else over there.

marklbucla · May 25, 2006

On the private transactions I've done since moving out, I've just done a bill of sale and verified the ID and CCW.

geekWithA.45 · May 25, 2006

Around this neck of the woods, it's fairly normal to _show_ driver's licenses (to prove PA residency for both parties) and sometimes carry permits (evidence of eligibility to recieve ) during private transactions, mainly to assure all parties that the probability of it being a lawful transaction is high.

Basically, money, a longarm, and a pair of IDs get thrown on the table, everyone takes a minute to look, heads nod, and then everyone takes what's theirs.

It's not a hard & fast rule, though.

Rumble · May 25, 2006

Sadly, PA is only semi-free, since we still have to do handgun transfers via an FFL with background checks involved, unless it's between family members.

aaronrkelly · May 25, 2006

I dont ask for ID when Im selling and I wont give ID when Im buying (private party).

1 - nobody needs that information, sure you may be able to get it off the internet but I dont make it a habit to tell people I dont know where I live etc.

2 - its not legally necessary in my state

3 - paper trails sucks, I will not keep my own voluntary "gun database" records for the ATF just so somebody can feel better

Transactions goes:

Are you able to legally posses this gun

if answer is yes, we exchange money/gun

end of transaction

rbernie · May 25, 2006

My question: In states where such transactions are normal, do any of you require any ID from the seller?

Do you require ID for someone to buy your old car? In most cases, I imagine that exchanging cash for keys is about all that's needed, and maybe a bill of sale from the seller to help the guy register it. Why should a firearm be any different?

Presenting ID is a good thing and I'll generally lead off a face2face purchase by showing my DL. However, I generally do not REQUIRE that it be presented when I'm a seller since I've no way to really validate it once I see it.

In Virginia the law does not require me to get any form of identification. However, it seems to me that to protect myself it is prudent to at least check to make sure the individual is from Virginia.

Compliance with Federal law is often A Good Thing, but in most cases I can accomplish reasonable good faith that the buyer is 'legal' without requiring ID. And all I'm really after is 'good faith' - validating that the buyer is legal per Federal law is an unfunded mandate that I will not perform.

The key to me is that if the buy doesn't meet my sniff test, I'm not doing the deal regardless of the presence of absence of ID.

Basically, money, a longarm, and a pair of IDs get thrown on the table, everyone takes a minute to look, heads nod, and then everyone takes what's theirs.

This is a good way to do it, but in many cases lately I've been buying/selling from list members who live near me. We meet in parking lots and such, and the exchange gets compressed a bit as a result. The last exchange I did, the other party shows up in a TX LEO uniform (having come straight from work). I didn't require ID, but I did show mine.

It is prudent for me to exchange a bill of sale. If this individual goes out tomorrow and kills someone with a gun I sold I want to have some proof that it wasn't a weapon in my possession.

Sorry to say, but I doubt that a bill of sale will help you much there unless they can find the guy who bought it and confirm his side of things.

I used to do bills of sale until I came to the realization that it served me little good to do so.

Transactions goes:

Are you able to legally posses this gun

if answer is yes, we exchange money/gun

end of transaction

I LIKE this.

Thefabulousfink · May 25, 2006

Ok, here's a question: If you buy a gun from in a FTF transaction with no paperwork (in a state where it is legal), and later somehow the police or BATF find out that the gun was stolen from the original owner, would you be charged with anything.

If I remember my Business Law class correctly, if you buy an item in good faith from a person who got it illegaly, the transaction is void, but you are not liable for anything.

fletcher · May 25, 2006

When selling FTF in NC, I just like to see an ID for a longarm purchase/sale. For a handgun, technically we are required to take a pistol purchase permit from the individual, or see their CCW permit.

Amish_Bill · May 25, 2006

I have no problem selling to someone if they are willing to show me their (same state) CCW. I don't need to write anythig down - just see that the name on it is what I would expect. Without a CCW, a state driver's license is acceptable, but not as preferred.

When someone wants to start writing down all my contact info on a private sale... I'm not so happy there. I have no problem showing them the cards proving I'm a good guy. I deal with those who want more on a case by case basis.

(of course, I'm in a state where normal firearms are not "restricted items")

Mr_Dictionary · May 25, 2006

I always ask to see a state issued ID. I don't copy anything down or even remember anything, but I live on the border of two states and given the confusion that often occurs with residency requirements (especially when people maintain residency in both states at different parts of the year) it's just easier to confirm residency via ID.

After that, I ask if they're legally able to posess the firearm through this transaction, ask if they have any questions about the gun or safety issues associated with it, and then we exchange cash and property.

ScottsGT · May 25, 2006

I dont ask for ID when Im selling and I wont give ID when Im buying (private party).

1 - nobody needs that information, sure you may be able to get it off the internet but I dont make it a habit to tell people I dont know where I live etc.

2 - its not legally necessary in my state

3 - paper trails sucks, I will not keep my own voluntary "gun database" records for the ATF just so somebody can feel better

Transactions goes:

Are you able to legally posses this gun

if answer is yes, we exchange money/gun

end of transaction

We've got the same system in SC, BUT...........
You never know what some pond scum lawyer might do if you ever wind up in court and your self defense gun you just bought out of the trader paper was used in an unsolved murder and you have no proof of whom you bought the weapon from. It's called CYA (Cover Your @$$)

Ok, here's a question: If you buy a gun from in a FTF transaction with no paperwork (in a state where it is legal), and later somehow the police or BATF find out that the gun was stolen from the original owner, would you be charged with anything.

If I remember my Business Law class correctly, if you buy an item in good faith from a person who got it illegaly, the transaction is void, but you are not liable for anything.

Around here it is called "Possession of Stole Property" Unless you can prove who you bought it from, an over zealous prosecuter will go after you. He just wants a convection on his record. just ask the Duke LaCrosse team.

I always get a photo copy of the drivers license or copy down all info on paper and then have them sign it. If they don't, they don't want my money that bad, or they have something to dispose of I don't want.
Again, CYA.

Gordon Fink · May 25, 2006

It will always be prudent when trading in government-registered items (such as cars and guns, which are almost always registered despite what you may want to believe) for both buyers and especially sellers to verify identification.

~G. Fink

Manedwolf · May 25, 2006

I just moved from the socialist state of California to civilization.

I discovered that I can purchase a handgun from a private party at a gun show with no IDs exchanged.

Excuse me? Isn't that a little risky?

Not for responsible people in a free country. If you're worried, run the numbers.

Moving from California to the real world is pretty much like moving from puree to solid food. Adults are generally regarded as actually being adults.

TallPine · May 25, 2006

I just moved from the socialist state of California to civilization.

That explains a lot ...

Give yourself five or ten years - you might even get used to it.

Werewolf · May 25, 2006

Question for you guys who demand ID from the purchaser of a gun you are selling...

don't you think that even the most hard core criminal or felon has an ID? Anyone can get a state issued ID - anyone. So what good does it do to see ID?

Seeing ID (unless it's a CCW - and I imagine they're forgable) doesn't prove squat. It doesn't keep you from selling to someone who isn't eligible to own a firearm. The only way you're going to do that (and even that isn't foolproof) is go to your local gunshop and have a NICS check done. If you're not willing to do that and you want to make sure you're not selling to a felon then you really shouldn't be selling your guns.

Otherwise if the issue of your gun ever being involved in a crime comes up then you simply say you sold it in a face to face and no record of said sale is legally required (probably varies by state).

My point is - seeing ID is a useless step in most cases.

zoom6zoom · May 25, 2006

get your head out of Cali.

He got his ass out, that's step one. His head will follow as soon as whatever they're doping the water supply in Kaliforny with works it's way out of his system.

Welcome to the world of (mostly) Free Men!

rbernie · May 25, 2006

Let's ask the question another way - what is the VALUE of checking ID? From my (perhaps limited) perspective, it does not satisfy all of the legal criteria needed for lawful firearms ownership and therefore is at best of limited value.

Y'all are acting as if looking at the buyer's ID somehow provides a shield against liability for the transfer, and as far as I can tell that's simply NOT the case. The buyer could still be operating under a false ID, may have been adjudicated mentally unstable in the past, may be a felon, may be buying the weapon for somebody else, and so forth. YOU DON'T KNOW. And you can't know - you don't have access to NICS and you aren't responsible for ensuring that a 4473 is filled out and kept on file for twenty years.

So you meet and you evaluate the situation. Everything is a clue - the license plate of the car they drove up in, their demeanor, their knowledge of that which they're buying or selling, and so forth. If it passes the sniff test and you BELIEVE that they are legal (and asking them straight out is, in my opinion, an excellent idea), then consumate the deal.

But I can't see how simply seeing their ID makes the deal or the firearm any less or more legal.

You never know what some pond scum lawyer might do if you ever wind up in court and your self defense gun you just bought out of the trader paper was used in an unsolved murder and you have no proof of whom you bought the weapon from. It's called CYA (Cover Your @$$)

This used to be my rationale for keeping a bill of sale, but I've decided that (having bought and sold so many firearms over the years) that the hassle of maintaining a file of every weapon that I've bought or sold into perpetuity outweights its potential value TO ME.

I evaluate the probability of the risk as low (especially since I generally don't buy my firearms out of the trunk of a guys car in the local 7-11's back parking lot) and my ability to mitigate the risk as medium. But that's a decision that everyone has to make on their own.

Standing Wolf · May 25, 2006

Welcome to the United States!

Otherguy Overby · May 25, 2006

ID

I don't need no stinking ID.

In my main state of (current) residence I've no ID other than an expired resident hunting license and a private pesticide applicator license. My DL and CCW are from another state I only kinda "live" in (I'm a sorta snowbird.) I've a bunch of library cards from several states, too, but I can only check books out on them right now. I might "move" to yet another state where there's no income tax.

So, wot I do is talk with seller (I never sell a gun) and if he sounds kosher I exchange cash, check or other property for gun and that's it.

Multiple residences are still legal for now.

Papers please?

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