private party sale with unregistered Armslist seller

[FROGO207]

Ya know you could just meet at a local FFL and have them run the sale through their books. Costs a little more but to make it legal if it seems sketchy what is your peace of mind worth anyhow. I have had several firearms purchases without any problems thus far.

 

[George Dickel]

Meeting at a police station? Seriously? And running a serial number? LEOs have more important stuff to do.

If the guy doesn't want to meet at a police station, you know you have a problem. I really doubt that the police would tell you to take a hike if you wanted to check if a gun was stolen. Part of their job is to make sure stolen property, especially firearms, is identified and returned to the proper owner or kept out of the hands of a prohibited person. I can't believe that the officer at the desk is so busy that he couldn't find the time to complete a very quick and minor computer check. Identifying and removing a stolen firearm from the street is unimportant? Seriously! Would make a great news story for the local television station.

 

[George P]

If the guy doesn't want to meet at a police station, you know you have a problem. I really doubt that the police would tell you to take a hike if you wanted to check if a gun was stolen. Part of their job is to make sure stolen property, especially firearms, is identified and returned to the proper owner or kept out of the hands of a prohibited person. I can't believe that the officer at the desk is so busy that he couldn't find the time to complete a very quick and minor computer check. Identifying and removing a stolen firearm from the street is unimportant? Seriously! Would make a great news story for the local television station.

BS, if I have a CCW or whatever the name is in your state, the last thing I want to do is waste my time with this.

 

[George Dickel]

BS, if I have a CCW or whatever the name is in your state, the last thing I want to do is waste my time with this.

The fact you have a CCW may be irrelevant to the seller, his terms or you don't get to buy his gun, but that is not germane to the OPs post. He was uncomfortable with the fact that the SELLER had an out of state cell phone number and that there was only one picture of the gun that caused him to have suspicions about the individual and the legality/legitimacy of the firearm being offered. I offered him a solution, for HIS problem, that would prove quite certainly that the sale and the gun were legal or not. I never stated that all gun transactions should be done in the manner I suggested.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I wouldn't sweat the out of state number. In this day and age, that isn't uncommon.
Use common sense.
Take someone with you if it makes you more comfortable.
Meet in a very public place.

I met someone once to sell some lead bars for casting. He suggested we meet at the state police headquarters in Little Rock. I'm sure he suggested it because he doesn't know me from Adam. That's pretty smart. We ended up making several more deals after that at various locations.
I've met people in Bass Pro's parking lot to sell them lead bars.
I've purchased a handgun in Academy Sports' parking lot.
I was armed every single time.
Every time was a well lit public place.

 

[Waveski]

I'm looking at a revolver on Armslist listed by an unregistered Armslist seller. I did have one Armslist experience with a scammer who posted pics from a different site with a deal too good to be true. This would be a face to face transaction in a public place. He states he's a resident of my state but has an out of state phone which he brought up himself. I would need to see his permit or driver's license to verify his residence to be legal in my state. He also only posted one photo of the gun which he states is perfect which makes me wonder if he "borrowed" a photo from somewhere else. Does any of this sound fishy to you more experienced guys with private online sellers?

I went back and reread the OP. I do not understand the distrust of the photo - you suspect that it was "borrowed" from somewhere else? When you meet the seller he is going to show you the actual item in real time , right? So what difference does the photo make? Cell phone area code? So what? That does not have any bearing on state residence.
With no disrespect intended , what I see here is this : you are basically uncomfortable with the overall Armslist/FTF environment. There is nothing wrong with that. All the advice in the world from this source is not going to change how you feel. No harm / no foul in that either.

There are many legitimate and legal avenues to firearm purchase. Check them out and take a route with which you are comfortable.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Sounds like a normal internet transaction so far. So you have had an attempted scam on AL before. That doesn't mean much other than it put your guard up. Out of state phone numbers mean very little when you get to the point of actually making the FTF deal. I have an out of state number for my area and I sometimes bring that point up as a seller. Sometimes not though. No one has ever asked about it. One photo means the seller is not very experienced at....selling...anything. Once again if a FTF meet is agreed upon there is very little likelihood of a traditional online scam taking place.

IMO, @Waveski hit the nail on the head. Until you start treating guns like any other product to buy and sell you are always going to get into your head a little bit on these deals.

I bought a rifle at a pawn shop the other day. I don't usually do this but I just carried it out to my car next to a busy street. I wasn't trying to get attention the way some of these knuckleheads do by carrying around ARs in public places. I was just transporting my purchased product to my vehicle like a loaf of bread or dog food. (I'm sure it helped that it was a Marlin lever gun and not an AK)

On the surface, I see no red flags. Check ID and/or CCW if that can be done to ease any other tensions.

 

[George P]

The fact you have a CCW may be irrelevant to the seller, his terms or you don't get to buy his gun, but that is not germane to the OPs post. He was uncomfortable with the fact that the SELLER had an out of state cell phone number and that there was only one picture of the gun that caused him to have suspicions about the individual and the legality/legitimacy of the firearm being offered. I offered him a solution, for HIS problem, that would prove quite certainly that the sale and the gun were legal or not. I never stated that all gun transactions should be done in the manner I suggested.

Which is why I said if his gut feeling says no to walk away. I have friends that moved across the country and kept their phone numbers. With more and more folks only having a cell phone, an out of area phone number is no big deal. The other issues should give any buyer a moment to pause and reconsider.

 

[stonebuster]

For me it depends mostly on the conversation. It’s pretty easy to figure out a scam.

There’s also a line somewhere between being cautious and making the other guy think you’re jerk. Been there...both ways.

Thanks to you folks with the advice. This would be my first private party/internet transaction so I needed some advice. That and the fact the first/last time I contacted an internet seller he was definitely a scammer using a picture I found on another sight of the same gun, serial number at price you would have expected for an unfired classic S&W revolver instead of the "too good to be true" price. Plus a very odd email conversation and other red flags. Wisco, you're right about the conversation. After speaking to the seller on the phone for a few minutes I've got no doubt he's legit and would not be worried about dealing with him. He answered my questions and has the permit needed to sell in my state. One of the benefits of being an old fart is I've gotten to be a pretty good judge of people. Not all, but this one was easy. All the common sense precautions still apply but no worries. Thanks

 

[armedwalleye]

If I have met the burden pf proof by showing either a CCW or DL, I am not signing anything not giving you my address or DL number, let alone my signature; MUCH too easy to have your identity stolen that way.

I agree totally. As a seller, I want his info if he'll give it. As a buyer, I'm NOT giving him mine. I haven't had to in over a dozen buying transactions.

 

[buck460XVR]

Anytime I buy a gun FTF from someone I don't know, I ask to see a picture ID and then take a pic of it with my cell phone. I also ask for a bill of sale and verify the signature is the same as on the picture ID. Doesn't matter iffin it's Armslist or a local newspaper ad or the friend of a friend. Scammers and con-men all over out there. Any legitimate person is not going to mind doing these things to get the price they are asking. As for the condition of the gun and iffin the pics are correct, I'd assume you will have the opportunity to inspect the firearm before you purchase it when you meet FTF.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Anytime I buy a gun FTF from someone I don't know, I ask to see a picture ID and then take a pic of it with my cell phone. I also ask for a bill of sale and verify the signature is the same as on the picture ID. Doesn't matter iffin it's Armslist or a local newspaper ad or the friend of a friend. Scammers and con-men all over out there. Any legitimate person is not going to mind doing these things to get the price they are asking.

That is not accurate.
I am a legitimate person. I have never been in trouble with the law. I have no intention of ever doing so.
No one is taking a picture of my DL to buy something from me. Period.
I'll sell it to someone else, or I'll let it gather dust in the closet first.

 

[kmw1954]

This whole conversation has brought up many points and issues in my mind about transferring the ownership of firearms. For me the biggest issue is my own personal protection as a buyer or seller. In the State of Wisconsin we are allowed to do private sales, face-to-face without any checks. Which is fine if you are a trusting person. But once again I do not know you or anything about you just as you do not know me.

As I've brought up before how am I supposed to know if I an buying a gun from a private party that this gun was not stolen or used in the commission of a felony? If selling how am I to know if you are not a convicted felon or a restricted person or to prevent that you are not a straw buyer for someone else. I certainly do not want to be stopped by the police one day only to find that the gun I am carrying is found to be stolen. Now I have to defend myself against that! How do I prove I wasn't the thief? There is no paper tail.

I'm beginning to believe it is just much safer to do all transactions through a licensed FFL... But that's just me.

 

[kmw1954]

Here is one reason for my apprehension as this incident happened just 20minutes from my house and 10 minutes from my daughters house.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...6/1-dead-3-wounded-in-kenosha-county-shooting

 

[George P]

If the person showed you his CCW, why would you have fears? I have bought guns at flea markets, sold some at garage sales; all with zero worries or incidents.

 

[kmw1954]

If the person showed you his CCW, why would you have fears? I have bought guns at flea markets, sold some at garage sales; all with zero worries or incidents.

So what do you do then with people like myself that do not have a CCW? At this point I also don't feel the need to get one.

 

[George P]

Then I look at your DL and ask a simple question: Are you a prohibited person?

 

[Waveski]

So what do you do then with people like myself that do not have a CCW? At this point I also don't feel the need to get one.

A CCW sure does make ftf easier for the seller. If a seller requires that , and a prospective buyer who is otherwise a stand-up person but does not have a CCW and misses out on an opportunity as a result , well , them's the brakes. Seller's discretion.

 

[WestKentucky]

I used to trade a lot. The easiest way to decide on a deal is to check a persons Facebook or put their name into google and add the city they live in. If the phone number is out of state then add that state after the name. There will be pictures pop up, likely a news story or obituary will mention the name. Use that information to make a decision.

 

[Ignition Override]

The seller's/buyer's style of communication can say something. Compare this with the good, honest people you personally know who are into guns.

The only local deal I decided not to pursue was with somebody who didn't seem prepared to answer any question. Maybe it was his first sale, and he listed the used (9mm) Sig P229 at about $300 less than I would have expected. These seemed a bit odd.
The way he communicated by text gave me the impression that his Memphis neighborhood was the type I would never go into-if you know what I mean.

 

[Theohazard]

As I've brought up before how am I supposed to know if I an buying a gun from a private party that this gun was not stolen or used in the commission of a felony? If selling how am I to know if you are not a convicted felon or a restricted person or to prevent that you are not a straw buyer for someone else. I certainly do not want to be stopped by the police one day only to find that the gun I am carrying is found to be stolen. Now I have to defend myself against that! How do I prove I wasn't the thief? There is no paper tail.

I'm beginning to believe it is just much safer to do all transactions through a licensed FFL... But that's just me.

An FFL has no way of determining whether a gun they’re transferring is stolen or not. So unless you live in a state where law enforcement is involved with the transfer, doing a private transfer through an FFL won’t help you determine if the gun is stolen.

 

[Elkins45]

The fact the seller is unregistered always gives me pause, but I have purchased at least one gun from an unregistered Armslist seller with no problem.

As others have said, ask for a specific photo and see if he can deliver. And meet somewhere public and safe. If you ask in advance the lobby of the local police or sheriffs station is about as safe as it gets, and will run a scammer away fairly soon.

 

[Waveski]

The fact the seller is unregistered always gives me pause

.....

I have sold several handguns via Armslist in the last couple of years. I am an unregistered seller. I am not scary , except to my daughter's high school friends , which is ok by me. Each of the meetings and exchanges I have had for gun sales has been a good experience for both parties. I do not put stock in who is/who is not registered on Armslist - a lot of the registered sellers are commercial businesses that clutter up the listings with way too many ads of new guns at full retail , which is a pia. I look to Armslist for an alternative to retail listings.

But I digress.

 

[il.bill]

I live in Illinois so buyers and sellers have a whole extra layer of state requirements to lawfully transfer a firearm, but I read this thread with interest. ANY firearm I transfer (or receive) as an individual here requires FOID Card verification, a waiting period, and the SELLER to record the Buyer's name and address, holding on to that information for ten years after the transfer. The Buyer has no legal paperwork required other than the payment in hand and a valid FOID Card to take possession.

I am also an 01FFL dealer. I have run a number of individual sales through my business with Bound Book entries with both Buyer and Seller information and a Form 4473 Background Check on the Buyer. This can give both parties some peace of mind that the transaction is legit, but I can understand that a gun buyer in a 'Free State' might be uncomfortable supplying such personal info 'for the record' if it is not required by law where they live.

I have to ask if any of the folks who recommend having local law enforcement 'run the serial number to see if the gun is stolen' have ever actually done that? I may very well be mistaken, but I do not think that is easily accomplished by individual buyers and sellers in many places here in the USA. Please correct me if I am wrong and you have real world experience with the process.
I have checked with local law enforcement about running the serial number to detect a stolen gun as a dealer. The local Police Chief is a friend of mine and he said he would do it, BUT if the report comes back 'stolen' he is required to immediately take possession of the firearm as directed by the State Police.

 

[Spats McGee]

Anytime I buy a gun FTF from someone I don't know, I ask to see a picture ID and then take a pic of it with my cell phone. I also ask for a bill of sale and verify the signature is the same as on the picture ID. Doesn't matter iffin it's Armslist or a local newspaper ad or the friend of a friend. Scammers and con-men all over out there. Any legitimate person is not going to mind doing these things to get the price they are asking. As for the condition of the gun and iffin the pics are correct, I'd assume you will have the opportunity to inspect the firearm before you purchase it when you meet FTF.

That is not accurate.
I am a legitimate person. I have never been in trouble with the law. I have no intention of ever doing so.
No one is taking a picture of my DL to buy something from me. Period.
I'll sell it to someone else, or I'll let it gather dust in the closet first.

I have to say, I'm with Arkansas Paul on this. I've had my background checked for gun purchases, to get my law license, and to become a prosecutor. I have a spotless criminal record, excluding traffic tickets and I haven't even had one of those in about 10 years. I'm pretty confident that I qualify as a "legitimate person." If someone wants to see my CHCL to make a gun deal with me, I'm OK with that. But if he tries to take a picture of my DL, the deal is off. Period. Allowing someone to do that is just begging to have my identity stolen.