Pat Rogers' Carbine Course Review or Eat Your Heart Out El-T

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Jeff White

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I attended Pat's course on 4-5-6 August 2003 at the Boone County Sheriff's Dept. in Lebanon, IN. The course was open to private citizens, military personnel and law enforcement.
Pat has an extensive background in both police and military special operations. USMC Force Recon, NYPD Emergency Services Unit and years of consulting for our government. The list of foreign units he has trained is impressive and surprising. He has done green side, blue side and black side operations.

CPT Ken Campbell from the Boone County Sheriff's Dept. assisted Pat and was our host. Speaking as someone who spent a good part of his military career coordinating and conducting training, I must say that Ken impressed me. When we signed in, he had a drinking cup, small first aid kit, notebook and pen for all the students. Ken was fogging the range for mosquitos when I arrived. Next to the water coolers were baby wipes, insect repellent and sun block. There is a refrigerator in the range house that students can use to store their lunches or cold drinks.

The welcome packet I received in the mail included the usual list of required equipment and ammunition, times etc. It also included two maps (one to Lebanon, IN and one to the range) and a list of motels that Ken had coordinated special rates with for students attending the courses there. Ken worked tirelessly throughout the course to make sure the students could concentrate on training. This included repair to the student's weapons. I have not been to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch so I can't speak about their facilities, but I have to say that Ken is the best host of any private or LE course I have attended. He is also an excellent instructor.

This course is devoted to how to fight with the carbine (specifically the AR15/M16 system) as your primary weapon. It's not a basic marksmanship course. You should be familiar with sight alignment, trigger control and breathing before you take this course.

We started with a review of the four universal safety rules and then Pat spoke a bit about his background and what he hoped to accomplish in the next 3 days. We went over the fighting stance vs. the competition stance. Then it was out to the 25 yard line to zero. We were using the old FBI bowling pin target for this exercise. Pat walked the line and was able to give everyone the correct number of clicks to adjust their sight, even though there were several different sighting systems in use to include A1 type iron sights.
Then it was down to the 3 yard line where we fired a 3 shot one hole group to demonstrate how effective the fighting stance is and to give those students who had never fired their AR up close, an idea about holdover.

Throughout the course, we trained as we would fight. If you ran out of ammo or had a malfunction at 25 yards and closer, your transitioned to your handgun and completed the drill. At 26 yards and greater, you either executed a speed reload or dropped to a knee and cleared your malfunction. To get everyone used to operating in a team environment, you asked permission to stand from your partner before getting up. This is a CQB drill that's very important because you don't want to just stand up into your buddy's line of fire in a gunfight. Of the 19 students in the course, 15 were military or LE. There were almost as many ways to accomplish this drill as there were different agencies represented. We standardized on announcing "MALFUNCTION, MALFUNCTION MALFUNCTION!" when taking a knee and "STANDING" followed by "STAND!" from your partner (let you know he knew your were coming up).

We worked on stance, transition drills, firing hammers and controlled pairs and failure drills to include the non-standard response for the rest of the day. All in all we fired between 3 and 4 hundred rounds on day one.

Day two started on standard IDPA targets. We went to the 50 yard line and verified zero. Several of us had problems with our zeros wandering. Mine was a good six inches low. Pat used this to bring out the point that anything you do can effect your zero. He recommends getting a paint marker and putting witness marks on all your mounts. His personal M4A1 is well marked with red paint.
After correcting our zeros, we got into shooting while moving, 3 types of kneeling positions and 4 different prone positions. We then got into reducing malfunctions. It felt very odd, setting up a double feed so we could practice clearing it. We spent the rest of the day working drills based on these skills. We fired nearly 500 rounds on day two.

Day three began working with just the handgun. We worked our handguns from 25 yards and in, all the drills we worked with the carbines. We then fired the MEU(SOC) Pistol Qualification Course. This is a 100 round course and you have to shoot 80% or better to qualify. We got a break in that there were no turning targets so we essentially had extra time for each stage. Everyone fired in their tac vests/body armor etc. even though the carbines were in the rack. Pat says that Force fires each stage with one round from the carbine first, then transition to the pistol.

We then fired the MEU(SOC) M4A1 Qualification course twice. Both courses were fired on IDPA targets. Any hits in the head counted (Force fires into a 3x5 box in the head for qualification) and the 8" ring in the body counted for torso hits. Then we got into lateral movement drills. Finished up the course by firing to both the left and right side while moving with a precision target (hostage) at the end. Fired each drill putting two rounds into each target and then firing a non-standard response into each target. A lot of us ran dry while shooting the NSR drill and finished up with the handgun.

There were 19 students in the class. Pat's experience as a trainer really showed, because that is a big firing line for him to handle. Many trainers prefer a class half that size. Everyone fired an Ar15 or M16 type weapon. Sights were everything from A1 irons to an EO-Tech. Aimpoints were the most common. There were two Trijicon Reflexes in the class, one of which went TU on day two. Either something got into the hole the tritium lamp rests in or the vial broke and it lost it's illumination. In the course of the three days, there was only one malfunction that wasn't magazine or ammo related. I had three stoppages I didn't purposely induce. One where I failed to seat the magazine (my fault...Pat is right, staying in the fight is all about getting the manipulation right and not hurrying through), one bad magazine that I stopped using and a squibb load with Federal XM193 Lot 1.
I used my Colt R6920 LE Carbine, HK USP .45 as primary and secondary weapons. The R6920 has an Aimpoint Comp ML (purchased through Cal's group purchase) in a Knights Offset mount as primary sight and a Knights 300 meter BUIS as backup. A 6V SureFire is mounted at the 6 O'clock position on a Knights RIS. I carried it on a Tactical Taylor M4 sling. Load bearing gear was a Blackhawk STRIKE plate carrier with 4 SDS RACK mag pouches mounted on the front. I keep this rig in the squad car for when I have to deploy the carbine. I normally don't buy Blackhawk gear, but I got a very good deal on this plate carrier. My only complaint is that the elastic on the side straps is too weak allowing the carrier to move a bit when you have it on.

The pistol was carrier in a Safariland 6004 thigh holster on an Eagle duty belt with an Eagle dump pouch on the left rear side. If you use body armor, a dump pouch is necessary for your magazines. I surely didn't want to stuff them down behind the SAPI plate and then take a prone position.

I took about 35 magazines to the course. Loaded them all, and then on breaks I just filled my mag pouches while everyone else was stuffing magazines. Each night back in the room, I'd reload my magazines. Pat recommends 28 rounds for one reason, so you can easily insert the mag with the bolt closed. No BS about them being unreliable when fully loaded.

BTW all you guys who are saving your pennies for the new HK mags so you can stock up when the ban sunsets, wait...Pat says the lot of mags they just got from HK is junk and they are having problems with them. Of course this was right after he published his article on how great they are in SWAT. Apparently there are some QC problems with them.

Ken Campbell is hosting a lot of courses now. Louis Awerbuck is there for almost the rest of the month. Ken can be reached at [email protected] Just ask to be put on the training list and he'll send you info on upcoming schools.

Jeff
 
Great report Jeff. I recently took a the 556 (Advanced Carbine) at Gunsite with Pat as R/M and Ken as his R/O. Can't say enough good things about either of them.
Denny
 
Jeff, thanks for the review. Great job.

Lone Ranger and I are now at Louis' class in Lebanon (Lone's staying here and we motor on down in my SUV).

Ken shook his head this morning and told me about the Rogers class. Damn those men in black dresses. Some day . . . .

You'll be glad to know that THE Pat Rogers is already booked again. File motions now.:D

Lone and I saw your squib load!:eek: It was on Ken's desk. Man, that will age a man.

Pat called Thursday, apparently the HundK mags have been sent back to Ol' Virginny without thank you notes.

Awerbuck class is going great. Learned a lot about the EBR and the 6.8mm cartridge which will finally replace the .223. I have not yet managed to break anything--it is early.
 
El Tejon,
The squib load was very scary. It didn't sound any different then the previous round fired and looked just like a double feed. I locked the bolt to the rear, dropped the magazine, racked the charging handle 3 times, inserted a new mag, racked the charging handle again and attempted to fire....nothing, looked and the bolt wasn't closed....smacked the forward assist (not anything Pat mentioned in the class, but too many years training that way in the Army) and the bolt wouldn't close.

We really bent up Ken's aluminum cleaning rod trying to clear the bore. And Ken, being the gentleman he is, wouldn't allow me to replace it for him with one of my cleaning rods from my tool kit.

I'm still composing my letter to Federal.....

Say hi to Louis for me and remind him to look for that Benelli M121 bolt mod for me when he gets to Europe....

Jeff
 
I'll be taking a class from pat later this month...looking forward to it!
 
Jeff,

Excellent review! I'm hosting Pat in Atlanta in Oct and can't wait. He's a class act and it sounds like I'll have my hands full attempting to replicate Ken's job hosting. Thanks for taking time to share your experience.
 
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but three days seems like a lot of time for the reviewed material.
Was this an official course, or one for interested persons?
If not official, then why the need to shoot not one, but two qualifying courses of fire?

Was any of the following also included, but left out of the review.......,

1) Rapid aimed fire ( Weapon at shoulder, but using only the front sight)

2) Quick fire ( Weapon at shoulder, but not using any sight picture whatsoever)

3) Underarm assault position.

4) Engaging multiple targets, both from a static position and while on the move.

5) Both weapon and unarmed strikes to counter grab attempts.

6) Simple transition to the pistol merely by drawing and firing the pistol with one hand. ( No need to sling the rifle for a two hand grip)

7) Use of cover.

These are the topics that I would expect to be included in an advanced carbine course, to be then followed by either instruction in team tactics/room entry techniques or FOF via Sims.

This is not a knock on Pat Rogers, who I have heard only good things about, but on what I personally would seek out from an advanced 3 day course.
 
Matthew,
We covered rapid aimed fire, but most of the participants used a red dot optic, the Aimpoint being the most common. We did fire with the optics turned off, using the Aimpoint tube as a ghost ring with the front sight.

There was no quick fire in the class. All the shots fired were aimed. I had several hours of Quick Fire instruction in Army BRM way back in 1974. It wasn't part of this course.

There were no rounds fired from the underarm assault position either. I question if that is a viable position for LE use.

There were many multiple target drills both with the carbine and the handgun, from both stationary and moving.


We fired pistol one handed from both the strong and weak side. One student did all his transitions that way. Most of the other students used either a 3 point of single point tactical sling and we just let the carbines hang to transition.

Use of cover was included.

I have to disagree that there was not enough material to fill up 3 days worth of shooting. There was not enough time to drill enough to develop any muscle memory as it was. It would have been more appropriate to cover the same subjects in 5 days.

To really train as you suggested would have taken at least 25 days. 5 for the carbine tasks, 5 for the handgun tasks, 5 for team tactics and movement, 5 for live fire team tactics and 5 for force on force simulation.

Jeff
 
Rain rain go away

Jeff;

Thanks for that detailed review of your carbine course with Pat. He has the distinction of being one of the few trainers I know who not only is technically proficient and possessive of vast amounts of real-life experience but who also has the gift of being able to impart his knowledge to others efficiently.

Given the detail that you went into in listing the techniques covered by the course as well as the fact that there were 19 students it immediately becomes obvious that the curriculum was well-planned and as extensive as the time and student-trainer ratio would safely allow.

Many operate under the delusion that they are trainers, when in reality they are cheerleaders for techniques that are not supportable in a real-world environment.:rolleyes:
 
Erick,
I have seen Denny shoot. Someday, if I continue to train hard, I might reach that level. I scored 86 on both the MEU(SOC) courses. I don't suffer from that uniquely American male delusion that I was born a natural shooter, I have to work at it.

If you need anything as you restart your military career, let me know.

Jeff
 
Jeff-
You're way to modest. Don't forget that I have also seen you shoot. The problems you had at the YFA class I hosted were gun problems--not shooter error--and you did a helluva job all things considered.

86 on both MEU(SOC) courses is pretty darned good. I forget what I scored. Yeah, that's the ticket, I forgot.

Be quiet Erick!:D

Denny
 
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MEU(SOC) Qual

Yeah Denny, but i've seen you shoot too....

You guys had turning targets- Jeff and crew didn't, and that skews the scores somewhat.
 
Well that settles it...If you guys had turning targets with strict times, you had a much harder course of fire....I will continue to train.

I honestly consider myself an average shooter...but I'm working on it.

Jeff
 
Jeff..to train as I suggest would take 25 hours as opposed to 25 days.

Seanmac 45..when you contacted me via GT you asked if I gave classes. I told you not as a business but I do train my peers at no charge.
Why not contact me for a free class/demo before you claim what is or is not workable.
I just have no vested interest in dragging things out via qualificition scores or endless BRD ( Bitchin' Range Drills)
 
Matthew,
I would be interested in your training techniques. I have spent most of my adult life as a trainer. I recently retired from the Army after 29 years in Infantry and Artillery units, 21 of it spent as an AGR trainer for ARNG units. Been a part time LEO here for 18 years. I've planned, coordinated and conducted training for the military and LEO community for a long time. I've also attended a lot of training, some very good and some not so good.

I have no doubt that you could present the material we are speaking of in 25 hours. But how proficient will your students be at the end of the course?

Pat's class was full of experienced shooters and I thought we did good to get through the material we did in 3 days.

If you don't wish to start another thread here or speak publically about your methods, please PM or e-mail e. I'm a little skeptical but very interested in any methodology that would make my job easier.

Jeff
 
Jeff..for starters go to Glocktalk and do a search under my name. Then read my threads, "How I teach Point Shooting"..Parts 1 and 2.
I am in Sweden now, where I have been training military and police units.
Last week we did a three day course in the techniques I described with the pistol and MP 5 ..both semi and fully automatic.
The course was for the firearms staff for the national academy from Stockholm. Results were very good.
I do not believe any course can give " muscle memory"
I believe in giving enough so the student can then perfect the methods on his own time.
The only way I can show you is through personal instruction.
I will be in Mass. this October teaching two four hour classes in PS with handgun, carbine and subgun.( Aimed and semi aimed methods will also be included)
The website is www.MLEFIAA.org
That would give us three days to go over my way of doing things.
If not, then we can work something else out.
Matt.
 
Jeff, would you mind posting the details of the course of fire for the MEU(SOC) Pistol Qual course? If this is avail. elsewhere a link would be appreciated also. I thought it interesting the way Pat said that Force takes the course, after an initial first round with the carbine - smart as usual. How does the course measure up to the IDPA qual course and at what level (SS,EX,MA) would one typically need to be at to best the 80% required score?

Thanks for any info, and by the way, your review was very nice.
EricO
 
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