Pentagon official suggests blacklisting lawyers representing detainees

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Does this line of argument surprise anyone? It is simply a variation of the theme that we have been hearing for a long time: “if you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists; if you criticize us, you’re with the terrorists” It is not that big of a leap to “if you represent the people we lock up, you’re with the terrorists.”

Guantanamo continues to be blight on our nation’s international reputation. Not so long ago, the world looked to America as a bastion of justice and the rule of law.

The law firms who provide free legal services to hundreds of indigent men, most who have been held for years by our Government with having been charged a with a single crime, are behaving in the highest and most honorable tradition of American justice. They following the proud tradition of John Adams, who represented British soldiers tried in American courts.

John Adams, in his old age, called his defense of British soldiers in 1770 "one of the most gallant, generous, manly, and disinterested actions of my whole life, and one of the best pieces of service I ever rendered my country."

The day after British soldiers mortally wounded five Americans on a cobbled square in Boston, a Boston merchant, James Forest, visited Adams in his office near the stairs of the Town Office. Forest asked Adams to defend the soldiers and their captain, Thomas Preston. Adams understood that taking the case would not only subject him to criticism, but also might jeopardize his legal practice or even risk his safety and the safety of his family. But Adams believed deeply that every person deserved a defense, and he took on the case.

This was not the first time an official of this administration has issued such an attack. In remarks at a press conference at Guantánamo Bay Naval Base, the Defense Department’s chief prosecutor for the military commissions there, Air Force Col. Moe Davis, said it was “ironic” that big law firms representing large defense contractors such as Boeing Corp. allow their lawyers to represent Guantánamo detainees pro bono.

We also need to address the grave misapprehension that Guantánamo houses lots of "terrorists." Every study done by the government for its own purposes has concluded that this is simply not true. The military did not follow its normal screening process (which worked very effectively to sort out the large number of people we picked up during the first Iraq war) because the administration did not want to admit the applicability of the Geneva Conventions. Thus, no impartial review under the military's own pre-existing standards has ever taken place. As a result, there were many opportunities for mistakes, vendettas, and confusion for American forces as they tried to operate in Afghanistan. They were paying cash bounties to local tribesmen. The administration's definition of "enemy combatant" includes people involuntarily conscripted into Taliban militias and held there by force. The government is planning to bring actual charges against no more than 10% of the detainees. There is simply an absence of any reliable basis for equating these "detainees" with "terrorists." If in fact and in law some particular individual is a terrorist, that is another matter, but first that needs to be established by something more substantial than government statements to the press.

Not surprisingly -- despite several Supreme Court rulings holding that the detainees are entitled to basic due process – the administration is resisting the efforts of the other 90% to get any. Responsible public servants in the Executive Branch formulate lawful policies, defend them when challenged in court, and abide by the resulting judicial decisions. This administration seems to be unwilling or unable to do any of these things.

That is what these pro bono lawyers are trying to achieve. In that effort, they have been supported by all of the national bar groups, as well as countless judges, military officers, former prosecutors, and, I would hope, every fair-minded person.
 
Even with the Stalinesque standards of the kangaroo courts Dick and his sock puppet George can only come up with ten to charge at last count.
High road? No. Name calling? Indicates lack of a good argument. Let's try harder, folks.
 
6) These are the lucky ones. The thousands or tens of thousands in our network of gulags across Europe and outsourced torture camps in the Middle East and Central Asia are disappeared. We know nothing. The Red Cross knows nothing. Only the torturers and the people who dig the anonymous graves know anything. And we do know that the few who have gotten loose from the torturers' clutches were simply abused untile they came up with something to tell their tormentors to get them to stop. If that's "America" and "The War on Terror", then our brave troops are dying so that we can be monsters. Yippee. G-d bless America!
Link Please? Or is this just your opinion that thousands are disappeared?
 
Humane treatment itself doesn't involve lawyers though.

I agree with you completely --lawyers should not have to be involved for
people to do the right thing. We just need to listen to the angels on our
shoulders and do the right thing.

Link Please? Or is this just your opinion that thousands are disappeared?

LOL, if I had such information and posted it online, how long do you think
it would take before I disappeared? ;)
 
Tanksoldier
The guys at Gitmo aren't US citizens …
How do you KNOW that? Without some, real, legal procedure, to identify who is there and why, the “guys at Gitmo” could be anyone.
YOU could wind up there tomorrow, and no one would know.
and they aren't on US soil. Why do you think they put them & the detention facility on Cuban soil in the first place?
To hide them from the public? And the lawyers?
 
OTOH: we as a buying public do have the right to know and decide where to spend our money at.

Remember, each pro-bono lawyer working at gitmo, *could* be working on defending the second amendment right for all lawful american citizens.
 
In all fairness, the fifth, sixth seventh and eighth amendments are also pretty important. Who's to say whether or not any of these are being violated? And also isn't gitmo technically U.S. Soil?
 
really?

2) During WWII accused spies and saboteurs in this country were given real trials with all the rules of evidence, judges, juries and lawyers


i got some kin that were moved to camps where 1/3 the kids under 5 died that would like to have a word with you about that.
 
Waitone said:
Someone policed up off the battlefield in another country deserve nothing. They are prisoners of war and if there are legitimate rules of warfare, they are subject to those rules.
Wait one, Waitone --

First, please consider that many of the "detainees" at Gitmo were not captured by American forces. Most of those from Afghanistan were swept up by various private armies of the warlords of the so-called "Northern Alliance," which group of scumbags we used as our surrogate army to oust the Taliban. Without a proper trial, we have no way of knowing if those detainess are terrorists, or Afghan patriots who took up arms against an invading army ... or just some poor schmuck who happened to be on some warlord's blacklist.

Second, kindly explain what rules of warfare pertain when they are being held by the United States of America but most of them never fired a shot at American soldiers. What "rules of warfare" allow keeping prisoners indefinitely, without any right to counsel, without any right to know what they are charged with, without (for a period of two or three years) anyone even knowing who they are or where they were?

The "rules of warfare" hold that prisoners of "war" may be held for the duration of the conflict, and at that point they are either tried for war crimes or repatriated. Our non-declared "wars" in both Afghanistan and Iraq have both been officially declared ended. Therefore, according to the rules of warfare, the detainees should either have been charged and tried, or released and sent home.

Our actions are both illegal and immoral. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I feel the same way about the Gitmo detainees as I do about Padilla. If they're as bad as the President says they are ... try them and punish them. If you don't have a case ... let 'em go.
 
Apology to Detainees' Attorneys

Letter to the Editor, Washington Post, Jan. 17 pg. A18

During a radio interview last week, I brought up the topic of pro bono work and habeas corpus representation of detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Regrettably, my comments left the impression that I question the integrity of those engaged in the zealous defense of detainees in Guantanamo. I do not.

I believe firmly that a foundational principle of our legal system is that the system works best when both sides are represented by competent legal counsel. I support pro bono work, as I said in the interview. I was a criminal defense attorney in two of my three tours in the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps. I zealously represented unpopular clients -- people charged with crimes that did not make them, or their attorneys, popular in the military. I believe that our justice system requires vigorous representation.

I apologize for what I said and to those lawyers and law firms who are representing clients at Guantanamo. I hope that my record of public service makes clear that those comments do not reflect my core beliefs.

CULLY STIMSON
Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Detainee Affairs
Defense Department
Washington
 
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You know what , I'm glad the guy apologized. In retrospect I don't like the idea of the Government blacklisting attorney's doing pro bono work, even if it involves defending terrorists.

I turns into a slipper slope. Would there be blacklist for attorneys in other high profile criminal cases? Would there be blacklist for attorneys working pro bono for causes that might not agree with the current adminstration Democrat or Republican? It was a dumb comment that I'm glad he retracted.
 
Stimson should have been fired. He's too high a government official to be making statements that go against the right of the accused to counsel.

Of course, most of those being held at GITMO haven't been formally charged with any crime, which is yet another disgrace being perpetrated by the current administration.

Charge these guys, try them, and either find them guilty or not guilty. If the latter, then set them free. Enough of the Sov Empire tactics already. :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Defending Scooter Libby

Richmond succinctly observes,
I wonder who he thinks should be representing Scooter Libby? :rolleyes:
I'll guarandamtee Scooter is not being defended pro bono.

Ironically enough, if I were tasked to come up with another lawyer who would share Stimson's beliefs as stated before he got a slap on the wrist I would put Scooter Libby at the front of the pack. :barf:

Jim
 
it doesn't matter that he apologized. What matters is he is THE MAN when it comes to detainee operations and he made it quite clear he wants to crap on those who would make sure the system WORKS like it is supposed to.
 
updating an old thread

A few weeks ago, the first "combatant status review tribunals" began at the Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, navy base to determine whether a dozen or so terrorism suspects held there should be prosecuted or freed. If the prisoners are determined to be "unlawful enemy combatants" — which is a very low threshold for the government to meet — the prisoners will then be tried by special tribunals created by the Military Commission Act of 2006.

Many applauded the resignation of Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Charles "Cully" Stimson, who criticized law firms that provided pro bono representation to Guantánamo detainees. Stimson resigned at the end of January. His resignation was a direct consequence of his ill-received attempt to bully high-powered law firms that have undertaken the defense of Guantánamo inmates. Stimson had suggested in a radio interview that companies doing business with these firms might want to cancel their representation and helpfully gave the names of most of the firms. He even hinted darkly that perhaps some of them weren't doing the work for free but were “receiving moneys from who-knows-where.”

Stimson insisted that his decision to resign was reached independently and that he was not asked to leave by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. OK - maybe not. But if so, add it together with Stimson's apology and it leads to a conclusion that that he was acting for, and covering up for, someone higher in the administration.
In his apology Stimson said that:
· he does not "question the integrity of those engaged in the zealous defense of detainees in Guantanamo"
· "a foundational principle of our legal system is that the system works best when both sides are represented by competent legal counsel"
· he "support pro bono work."
He then concluded "I hope that my record of public service makes clear that those comments [on the radio] do not reflect my core beliefs." Of course, this leads to the question: If Stimson's remarks did not reflect his "core beliefs," why did he make them, and whose core beliefs do they reflect? Compare this to the Scooter Libby trial, where the real interest lay not in the crime itself but the insight provided into the backroom machinations of the Bush administration.
There is little question that the attack on defense counsel represented the view of higher ups in the administration. In an editorial by Robert L. Pollock, a member of the Wall Street Journal's editorial board, quoted an unnamed “senior U.S. official” as saying, “Corporate C.E.O.’s seeing this should ask firms to choose between lucrative retainers and representing terrorists.”
The ethics problems in the Department of Defense Office of Military Commissions go well beyond Stimson. The Department of Defense's Manual for Military Commissions, aims to hamstring defense lawyers with a classic "Catch-22" situation — abide by the military's rules and represent your client, or abide by the legal profession's disciplinary rules and be reassigned or quit. Rule 109 of the manual — the commissions' ethics rule — prescribes what to do when the commissions' rules conflict with the ethics rules written by lawyers and approved by courts in the state that licensed the attorney. The manual's simplistic solution: The Department of Defense's rules are "paramount."

Rule 109, "Professional responsibility rules for military judges and lawyers," provides that lawyers "practicing before military commissions shall adhere to any rules of professional responsibility prescribed by the Secretary of Defense." Unfortunately, the Secretary of Defense is not an attorney and lacks any authority to issue ethics rules for attorneys. If you are a military attorney who is governed by a state that prohibits the military lawyer from doing something prescribed by the secretary of defense, Rule 109 of the manual has another easy solution — just replace the military lawyer.

The manual does not offer a solution for when the commission runs out of military lawyers who will not violate long-standing, accepted ethics and licensing rules for lawyers.

If you happen to be a civilian lawyer, yes, you can stay on the case and continue to represent the client, but only if you agree to waive any conflict that these rules may have with your home state ethics standards. So you can stay as counsel, but it will likely cost you your law license. Every state has ethics standards, and the military has adopted a code of ethical rules. The American Bar Association, which includes prosecutors, defense attorneys and military lawyers, has model ethics standards. Congress passed a law in 1999 requiring that federal prosecutors adhere to the rules adopted by their state bars.

But the secretary of defense, a non-lawyer, has decided that he is entitled to create his own rules, and you either agree to them or find yourself another place to practice.

In the meantime, many of the detainees in Guantánamo have been there for years. And do they really need lawyers? After all, they are all terrorists. Aren’t they? :rolleyes:
 
I have to toss in my favorite quote on this type of situation:

“I will forever, at all hazards, assert the dignity, independence, and integrity of the English Bar, without which impartial justice, the most valuable part of the English Constitution, can have no existence.
“From the moment that any advocate can be permitted to say that he will or will not stand between the Crown and the subject arraigned in the court where he daily sits to practise, from that moment the liberties of England are at an end.
“If the advocate refuses to defend, from what he may think of the charge or of the defense, he assumes the character of the judge; nay, he assumes it before the hour of judgment; and, in proportion to his rank and reputation, puts the heavy influence of, perhaps, a mistaken opinion into the scale against the accused, in whose favor the benevolent principle of English law makes all presumptions, and which commands the very judge to be his counsel.

-Lord Thomas Erskine,
in his defense of Thomas Paine for sedition (1792)

Of course, it is still a rule in the English Bar that a barrister can't refuse a case offered by anyone willing to pay his fee.
 
And you think this is in error how, exactly?
If the answer to your question is not apparent to a reader then that reader has no conception of a lawyer's duty to his client, and any attempt to answer it would be an exercise in futility so far as that reader is concerned.

Jim
 
Irony

Just wondering --Any relation between this Stimson and Henry Stimson, Secretary of War?

The irony is that Henry Stimson, Roosevelt’s Republican Secretary of War, was a key rule-of-law advocate in the creation of the Nuremberg Tribunals. The United States led the way in the Nuremberg trials - underscoring the need for strict adherence to the rule of law in the face of the lawlessness of the Nazi regime. Since Nuremberg, adherence to the rule of law has proved to be the United States' best foreign relations tool. The U.S. Constitution is taken as a model by other countries. The United States grants haven to those who are fleeing the persecution of lawless regimes.

At Nuremberg, the Allied power convened Tribunals to try leaders of the Nazi government. That procedure was controversial. One faction in the U.S. government advocated summarily executing Nazi leader. Along with this proposal came advocating using German prisoners as labor to rebuild the destruction caused by the war. Winston Churchill supported a version of this plan, and he supported simply shooting the leaders. Initially, so did President Roosevelt. It was Secretary of War Henry Stimson who believed that the rule of law needed to be reinforced where the Nazis had mocked it. He considered the Nazi activities war crimes that called for a judicial response. He advocated trying Nazi leaders in open court. Stimson eventually carried the day and convinced Roosevelt, who gave his approval for the Tribunals. The U.S. then led the Allies in the creation of the Tribunals.

Justice Robert Jackson, who was a sitting U.S. Supreme Court justice, was allowed a leave of absence to become Chief Prosecutor of the Tribunal. The Tribunal indicted defendants on charges of crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. At no prior time in history had the leaders of a nation been brought to trial for killing their own citizens. The Tribunals established individual accountability for mass atrocities, where previously, only nations had been held accountable. The Tribunals eliminated immunity based on official position, giving birth to the concept of command responsibility. They created a legal basis for finding private actors, not just public officials, responsible for atrocities.

To my mind, the most important overall concept advanced by the Tribunals was that due process needs to be followed even after horrible atrocities.

President Bush has repeatedly sought to exempt his Administration from any legal oversight or limitations. My position is that the rule of law must guide each step of the way in addressing the current radical challenge to our democratic way of life posed by terrorism and radical Islam. Our behavior as a nation must be guided by the laws we have established.

As former Solicitor General of the United States Simon Sobeloff said, "The constitutional protections asserted by a criminal today may become the necessary defense tomorrow of an honest and responsible man. If we tolerate usages destructive to freedom, if we put men in fear so that they dare not exercise the first prerogatives of free men, it is certain that the victims will only be tinder for the spreading fire."

Defending a principle for a group of people that we are inclined to hate or fear is a tremendous challenge, whether that group is criminals, drug abusers or terrorists, but it will strengthen our resolve to abide by those same principles in the future.
 
I agree that these people shouldn't be in Guantanamo. Historically, terrorists, spies, and saboteurs are to be lined up and shot at the first readily available post, or hanged if you prefer. Yes, even in the Vietnam War, for I have seen the pictures. The Geneva Convention and the Bill of Rights do not cover them.

These people in Guantanamo are not American Citizens, they are not Prisoners of War, and they enemy combatants. They don't report to a recognizable chain of command, they don't carry their arms openly, and they don't have a distinguishing mark or uniform readily identifiable at a distance.

Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but that's war.
 
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