Pepper Spray as a method of home defense?

[GuyWithQuestions]

If they are there unlawfully you don't know their intentions but MUST assume they are there to rape/kill you.

This is my concern. I went to packing.org. It said that just because someone's in your house illegally, doesn't mean that you can shoot them with a gun. They have to be acting in a way that would make someone think that they were going to seriously injure them (such as coming in a steathy way, etc). It said they have to present a threat. So what if you catch someone in your living room stealing and they seem quite defiant in leaving and keep on grabbing things? Would most state laws justify shooting them?

My other thoughts on pepper spray are that I've heard its effectiveness mostly lies with what brand and spray type it is. Not every pepper spray is created the same. According to a lot of studies, pepper spray can be from 55%-95% effective, depending on the brand. I heard that the Berkley study on pepper spray not always being so effective was done on one of the weakest available pepper sprays. A researcher I found who does studies with the National Institute of Justice says that pepper spray is 70-86% effective depending on how effectiveness is defined. I've heard that although the earlier Agent Thomas Ward made OC seem more effective than it is and he was exposed, since then many research projects all over the U.S. have found OC to be 75%-90% effective. Pepper spray is also being created in stronger formulations then back then. I'm just throwing out ideas for Strategies and Tactics as a way to explore. Anyone else feel free to add your input.

 

[Preacherman]

Folks, the main reason for not using pepper spray has already been stated (thanks, Psychophipps!). The use of a gas such as this in a confined area will affect EVERYONE IN THAT AREA - including you. This is commonly described by professionals as "Not A Good Idea".

Pepper foam might be one possible alternative, as it doesn't fill the atmosphere with gas - but then the other limitations of this stuff come into play. I've worked in prisons for many years. There are hardened convicts out there who laugh at this stuff! I've watched them absorb half a can or more (a prison-size can, too, not the dinky pocket-size containers most folks carry) and grin casually at the CO concerned, daring him to close in to within contact range. Sure, their eyes were streaming, and they were coughing, but they were still fully capable of ripping off the cojones of anyone stupid enough to get close to them - or who allowed them to get close enough to him/her.

There is another factor to consider. Let's say the intruder is a drunk, confused individual, who doesn't really intend any harm to you or yours. He/she is asthmatic, or has other respiratory issues. Your use of pepper spray/foam will undoubtedly cause problems that may lead to really serious complications, even death. Guess what? You're going to get sued. The suit will undoubtedly state that you - a private citizen, not a licensed, trained cop - used a chemical weapon without provocation, reason or excuse. Even if you win the lawsuit, you're still out megabucks in legal expenses.

Therefore, for all of these reasons, I prefer to advise my students never, EVER to rely on pepper spray. If you are in a position where you are legally entitled to defend yourself, use the legal means at your disposal, and don't settle for half-measures. If there is legal doubt - don't use those methods. Pepper spray is something that is a "feel-good" panacea for those who don't want to confront the reality of the defensive use of force. It has its place, particularly in police work, but is not a general-purpose tool, particularly for home defence.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Preacherman, what specific brands of pepper spray did you use? Most pepper sprays can be 5 times stronger or weaker than others. Also, wouldn't trying to get away from someone who's trying to hurt you be different than spraying someone and then trying to wrestle with them?

Also, what about all of that research that has found that once Police Departments start using pepper spray, lawsuits against them for excessive force goes down (because less suspect permanent injury) and officer injuries go down? If someone's in your house, would they be likely to get you in trouble legally if you spray them but less likely if you shoot them?

 

[Preacherman]

Preacherman, what specific brands of pepper spray did you use? Most pepper sprays can be 5 times stronger or weaker than others.

I've used several brands in training. I've seen Fox Labs and a bunch of others in State facilities. I'm not sure what the Federal Bureau of Prisons uses currently. The claimed "strength" is not necessarily relevant - it's how well that particular spray transfers the heat/pain element to the target. Some are more effective than others.

Also, wouldn't trying to get away from someone who's trying to hurt you be different than spraying someone and then trying to wrestle with them?

Yes, it's different, from your point of view. However, if the BG you're trying to get away from is relatively unaffected by the spray, how is it different from his point of view? He's still going to come after you.

Also, what about all of that research that has found that once Police Departments start using pepper spray, lawsuits against them for excessive force goes down (because less suspect permanent injury) and officer injuries go down? If someone's in your house, would they be likely to get you in trouble legally if you spray them but less likely if you shoot them?

Are you a cop? If so, you're trained in the use of pepper spray (to certification standards), and enjoy a certain legal immunity. As a private citizen, you are not certified in the use of this less-lethal weapon (and never forget that that's precisely what it is - a less lethal weapon, but still a potentially lethal one!). You and I are not worried about officer injuries, legal immunity or otherwise, etc. We need to save our favorite backsides from getting pounded into hamburger by an intruder. To do this, use the most efficient and effective tools that you're legally able to employ.

Also, don't forget the first and most important point. In an enclosed space, pepper spray is an AREA WEAPON - it will affect everybody there. To test this for yourself, go buy an ordinary can of aerosol air-freshener, the kind freely available at any supermarket. Stand in the middle of your living-room, point the can away from you, and give a three- to five-second burst. How long is it before you can smell the air-freshener, even though it's pointed away from you? That's right - a matter of a few seconds only. Now imagine how your eyes would be watering and your nose streaming if that air-freshener was pepper spray. I repeat - pepper spray inside your home is a Bad Idea. Period.

 

[ArmedBear]

The purpose of pepper spray is to gain an advantage over the opponent.

You can use this advantage however it best suits you. Be it the beginning of a combined attack, gaining complaince, or running away.

I'm sorry, but that's just silly. Here's why:

combined attack -- No WAY would I spray someone, then shoot him. Chances of me doing time for manslaughter would be near 100%. We may know that pepper spray just gives you an advantage, but to a jury that is at all sympathetic to the prosecution, I just "disabled a man with pepper spray, then shot him in cold blood as he lay blind and helpless on the floor." I'm not going there. If he poses a REAL threat, I'll use the weapon that will stop him, not "gain an advantage."

gaining compliance -- That's fine for prison guards and riot police, but not something I'm going to even consider as a homeowner or citizen, jogging down the street. I'm not there to do some kind of BS Hollywood-style citizen's arrest; my objective at home, or out on a training run, is to protect my family from death, rape, etc., or to avoid being injured or killed myself. If I "gain compliance" by threatening an intruder with a gun, fine; otherwise, I pull the trigger and gain compliance that way. Pepper spray is of little or no value if I believe there is a genuine threat to my life or my family. Furthermore, if the guy is small, slow and unarmed, he wouldn't pose a threat; if he's big, quick and armed, I'm not going to waste my time on spray, in my home. That mistake could be fatal to me and my family.

running away -- That's about all the "advantage" will buy, if you're halfway intelligent. Disorient assailant, leave the scene. Like I said, I just carry the stuff while out on a run.

Dealing with an attack isn't a game, it's not a movie, and it's not the UFC.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Personally, I'm just not so understanding of why pepper spray doesn't work. I've accidentally gotten it in my eyes and my eyes slammed shut and I couldn't see. I could still move around, not immobolized, but it would have been quite difficult for me to carry out a successful attack. I haven't taken a straight shot to the face, so I'm sure that that would be a little more potent than what I accidentally did to my eyes. I’ve heard from quite a few OC instructors that it does work. I’m wondering what it would be like to play tag with OC, by giving those who are not it pepper spray, may be difficult if it blinds he who is it! I read a post from somewhere on THR that a guy here personally sprayed someone who was trying to hijack his car and the guy fell off his car and on street. I'm also not sure how it would be bad in the house. I was with someone when I was much younger who was stupid and wanted to spray fogger type pepper spray in the house I was in. I consented and quickly we both had to go into another room, but it wasn't incapacitating, just extremely unpleasant and caused coughing spasms. After I left I decided to come back to get something, but the fog still in the air didn't stop me, just made it unpleasant and made me run back out of the room after I got the stuff I needed. So if you use it in your house it’s not going to incapacitate you just because it’s in the air and you probably should head for another room anyway (the intruder most likely will leave if he doesn’t plan on much harm, if not and he’s still fully functional, then…

combined attack -- No WAY would I spray someone, then shoot him. Chances of me doing time for manslaughter would be near 100%.

Well if he doesn't make it any further after pepper spray, then would I need to shoot him? And if it doesn't work and he keeps on coming after, couldn't I then just say it didn't work and so I couldn't just rely on force less than lethal?

My main concern is Jeff White's comments that I have read from time to time:

For months I've been posting that the Castle Doctrine laws were not a license to kill anyone in your home. For months I've said that the actual circumstances will be looked into and if the police and prosecutor believed the homeowner committed a murder they could be and would be prosecuted.

So that’s why I’m concerned about only having a gun, and other weapons that would be considered primarily lethal (such as knives and spears), available.

 

[Jeff White]

I normally post that little blurb in response to all the people who like to post that they will arbitrarily shoot anyone found in their home and expect the castle doctrine laws to protect them.

The key to staying out of trouble is knowing the laws regarding the use of deadly force. In most places in the US, if you can articulate that you were actually in fear of great bodily harm or losing your life, or that if you didn't act someone else was in danger of great bodily harm or losing their life, then deadly force would be legally justified.

As a private citizen, you aren't obligated to take anyone into custody and hold them for the police. Many people like to have an intermediate force option available to them and there is nothing wrong with that. But don't let the fear of prosecution or civil suit keep you from acting in your own defense. Don't take OC to a gunfight, or a knife fight for that matter.

In this case your mind is the weapon you need. Know the law in your jurisdiction. If deadly force is the only option left to you, then you have to have the will to use it.

No weapon that you can hold in your hand will ever work 100% of the time on 100% of the population. I've sprayed many suspects with OC and been present when a lot more were sprayed. I've never personally seen it fail, but I know that it has, so I take that into consideration when I use it. It's not my only option.

If you have an intruder in your home and you wish him removed, call the police. Cover him with your firearm. There is no need for you to OC the suspect and have him in a tidy little package when the police arrive. If the situation escalates into a deadly force situation, use deadly force.

For a civilain's use of OC, I always recommend using it to escape the situation, spray and run, call the police when you reach safety. An example might be the aggressive panhandler who suddenly puts his hands on you because you inadvertantly let him get too close...spray and run...or the man who continues to make unwanted advances toward a woman walking on the street....not a shoot situation, but one where OC will give you an opportunity to escape.

In your home, unless your state law requires it, you don't have to retreat, the rules are somewhat different. But again, just because the castle doctrine law make make you believe can shoot someone with impunity, you can't. Make sure that the threshold for the use of deadly force is crossed.

In the thread I posted that in, a member has posted that he remembers the fight starting over a debt one man owed the other. Don't make the mistake of believing the castle law permits you to kill someone in the heat of an argument, just because the argument happened in your home. We don't have many details of the story yet, but it seems like more then the man wakes up and finds burglar standing in kitchen with a knife in his hand and homeowner shoots burglar.

Jeff

 

[TA_Raider]

I live in Jacksonville, Fl. A city with one of the highest crime rates in America. For heavens sake, we have 12 year olds breaking and entering and raping 80 year old women. We have murders every other day if not every day. Crime is growing in this city and I will only use a lethal weapon to disarm the intruder, whether he is stealing a tv or a cold blooded murderer. I think that pepper spray is not enough, especially if the intruder is on drugs, then you don't know what to expect. We have gangs moving into the city and most robberings and murders often happen with multiple intruders, not just one acting alone. If you finish one can of spray on one intruder and then another one shows up, you're screwed!:banghead: By that time your whole family is in danger and there is nothing you can do. Most of the gangbangers and crime lords have no mercy and will shoot you on the spot. My aunt was recently held up at her restaurant by four hostiles with guns. Two of which were wanted for murder in other counties. Thank God she was not harmed, other than for a few bruses and a big headache. To this day they still have not been caught. But back to the original question, Would I use pepper spray as primary weapon over a gun? No. This is florida, and where I live, to my understanding, basically they need to be dead on your property. If they are in your house and you shoot them and they run off, they can claim that you shot them as they were on a 3 o'clock morning stroll, unless there is evidence saying otherwise that they were at the crime scene.


I have a family at home, and I will only use lethal force as in, if you break into my home and threaten my family's lives with a gun, then you are going to die. Live By The Gun, Die By The Gun.

 

[foob]

we have 12 year olds breaking and entering and raping 80 year old women

 

[RustyShackelford]

First Defense 360 model

I saw the new 360 chemical agent listed in Galls public safety catalog. www.Galls.com

It looks good for my needs. I would like a powerful chemical agent with UV dye and tear gas like the Mace brand. I've heard many LE agencies use First Defense products.

Rusty S

 

[crofrog]

combined attack -- No WAY would I spray someone, then shoot him. Chances of me doing time for manslaughter would be near 100%. We may know that pepper spray just gives you an advantage, but to a jury that is at all sympathetic to the prosecution, I just "disabled a man with pepper spray, then shot him in cold blood as he lay blind and helpless on the floor." I'm not going there. If he poses a REAL threat, I'll use the weapon that will stop him, not "gain an advantage."

I wasn't actually thinking of using a gun after the pepper spray, however as someone stated above. Something along the lines of: "I tried to use the least ammount of force available, after the OC failed to work given the nature of the conflict and the fact that I was now in much greater fear for my life. I was forced by the bad guy to use lethal force." I think a jury would like seeing how hard you tried not to kill him.

Any how, when I was thinking of a combined attack, I was thinking more along the lines of treating pepper spray as an "eye jab in a can" using it as an opening move before having to go hands on. It's lower on the force continum than fist fighting but higher than merely telling the guy what you want him to do.

gaining compliance -- That's fine for prison guards and riot police, but not something I'm going to even consider as a homeowner or citizen, jogging down the street. I'm not there to do some kind of BS Hollywood-style citizen's arrest; my objective at home, or out on a training run, is to protect my family from death, rape, etc., or to avoid being injured or killed myself. If I "gain compliance" by threatening an intruder with a gun, fine; otherwise, I pull the trigger and gain compliance that way. Pepper spray is of little or no value if I believe there is a genuine threat to my life or my family. Furthermore, if the guy is small, slow and unarmed, he wouldn't pose a threat; if he's big, quick and armed, I'm not going to waste my time on spray, in my home. That mistake could be fatal to me and my family.

gaining complaince isn't always arresting him, complaince is just that, him doing what you tell him. It could be as simple as "put the tv down and get out."

running away -- That's about all the "advantage" will buy, if you're halfway intelligent. Disorient assailant, leave the scene. Like I said, I just carry the stuff while out on a run.

That's defaintly an option, but to think that is the only time it is useful is rather limited and narrow minded.

It's a tool, learn how to properly employ it. Learn it's effects on you. Develop plans both for it it successfully works or fails to work.

Dealing with an attack isn't a game, it's not a movie, and it's not the UFC.

I never said it was.