Quantcast

Pepper Spray--The Truth

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by OC-Trainer, Dec 17, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,352
    I have never heard of an OC immunity either. I did encounter one guy who was immune to CS though, granted it isn't the same. He was in my NBC training course at Ft Benning. He had no reaction when the rest of us were coughing, gagging, and some throwing up. The NCOs kicked him out of the chamber because they couldn't have any fun with him.
     
  2. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    OC Tier System

    The video in post #276 never ceases to amaze me. The snake oil salesman was just flat-out wrong about a bunch of stuff, not the least of which was the "pepper spray neutralizer." Every time "Badfinger" was sprayed with the neutralizer his symptoms got worse-not better. Of course they make every excuse, "He had an allergic reaction" (he didn't) or "Imagine what it would have been like without the neutralizer" (much better). "Badfinger" turned out to be just fine when it was all said and done. To date, it is probably the best video of its kind.

    So, how is it that the man sprayed in that video got absolutely crushed by the OC, yet we see video after video of cadets being sprayed for academy training running through obstacle courses and completing drills? The answer lies in the OC tier system and some, let's just say, unrealistic occurrences.

    The industry standard OC tier system looks something like this:

    Level 1= 5% OC, .2% major capsaicinoids (MC), 15 minute decon
    Level 2= 10% OC, .7% MC, 30 minute decon
    Level 3=10% OC and ^, 1% MC and ^, 45 minute decon

    Guess which ones are almost always used in academy training? Level 1. Streams are the spray pattern of choice during training, as well as in the field. Here's the thing- even though the academies are using the weakest form of OC spray in these videos (the fact that the OC is clear is usually a dead give away) the eyes of the cadets still slam shut. They still can't see and have temporary vision loss. Yet we see them running to bags, completing drills and "fighting through it." How is this possible?

    Here is a video that pretty much sums up every police academy OC training. (May contain some profanity)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG_i036ecs4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ88pPa-1p8


    Generally speaking, here's some of the things that makes this training completely unrealistic:

    -Almost always start with their eyes closed and holding their breath
    -They viewed the course ahead of time
    -The cadets have a guide that walks them through the course (because they can't see)
    -They are hitting bags that are stationary and do not hit back
    -They are walking/running through the course by sound, not by sight.
    On the surface it appears as though the instructors and other cadets are yelling words of encouragement. They are, but it is primarily so the cadets can find the next stop on the drill. This is a little known fact.

    Here is what happens without a guide during this training.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFS2c2Bw3Hg

    Here is the best video of someone "fighting through it" :uhoh: (Possibly some profanity)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjMTMuKTD4g


    TL;DR By and large, the majority of OC spray training videos are just smoke and mirrors. Generally speaking, the lowest strength product is being used (and it still slams the eyes shut), coupled with a lot of help from a team of instructors around them helping them get through the course. Truth be told -none of the cadets would be able to complete these drills without this help. This is completely unrealistic and not how things go down in the real world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  3. glistam

    glistam Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Messages:
    712
    Location:
    Maryland
    But man some of them are funny.

    What happens when they make you open your eyes during spraying, you try to run through the course, and the "dummies" hit back:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3pXu4ZYI-8

    Or have no prior training at all (these are local boys at Navy in Annapolis):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK8ywmLmPbs

    I did notice the thing about the stream being used all the time too. When you see police spray real suspects, their entire head turns orange.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  4. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Yeah, some of them are pretty comical. That's exactly how I feel when I watch the "pepper spray neutralizer" video. I must have seen that video a 100 times, and every time it makes me laugh... a lot. I've dissected every second of that video and it kills me every time. There's just so much there. Some obvious, and some very subtle, but hilarious nonetheless.

    Here's something of note; Whenever a department would order the level 1 for training, they would always claim that it was because they didn't want to "dirty the uniforms with orange." Right ;)
     
  5. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    Not sure I agree

    I will allow that you are an "industry insider".

    But after using OC [ and other brands of ASR ] for 26 years as an LEO and D/T instructor.

    I see that we have a huge difference of opinion as to strength and actual de con.

    After seeing well over 50 police academy classes get 'maced' and watching them 'try' to decon = I saw very few that could recover in less than a 1/2 hour.

    That was with baby shampoo and ALL the water they could use.

    Having been 'maced' by other LEO,myself [ it happens ] and perps too,I saw that for the most part it worked VERY well.

    And I did use a 'few' cans up while acting as a LEO at bar fights and even in the jail.

    Bear stopper was AMAZING,and saved my butt more than a few times [ NO,it was not issue ].

    And the Scovill scale was what I looked for on all those that we purchased,never less than a MILLION ,regardless of the percentage used on the label.

    Guess we don't agree on much ?.

    But what is your opinion of the Kimber self contained sprayers that are 2 shots,they are supposed to be at least 1 million Scovill units.
     
  6. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    17,295
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    A few months ago I was involved in a disturbance. Multiple Mk 9 foggers of Phantom were deployed. Multiple subjects continued fighting very well despite being hosed directly in an enclosed area with limited ventilation. Some were swinging blindly, other able to connect kicks to heads. This was in addition to multiple 37mm rounds of stingballs being deployed. I was in the middle of it, and was able to communicated and move, albeit with some vision stinging and coughing. My "gas mask" consisted of a handkerchief. Despite the several emptied foggers and overhwleming response, several of MY men and women went to the hospital. Worst day of my career.
    The very next day, we did a planned use of force on a barricaded subject. One single 1-2 second burst of Phantom. Subject co-operated in a minute. In two minutes I, being 15 feet away, in a ventilated area, was unable to speak or see, coughing my lungs and eyes out. I had to have another staff member relay commands for me.
    I watched a staff member employ several 1-2 second bursts of Phantom on two subjects fighting, ignoring all verbal orders. Everyone ELSE in the room was incapacitated, and the 40+ pepperballs fired didn't help. The two subjects continued fighting until physically dragged apart.
    It depends on the situation, adrenaline and subjects, and as everyone in my workplace can say, Phantom seems to work the best of everything we've tried.
    Incidentally, from my personal direct experience, I consider the pepperball launcher to be the single most useless device ever invented.
     
  7. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thanks for the question and for "allowing" me to call myself an industry insider ;)

    The first thing I look to with what you described is the product(s). What brand(s) where used during your career? Brands, strength, etc. I'll need specifics.

    As far as the decon goes... Decon refers to how quickly the oleoresin capsicum can be removed from a person. The higher the OC%, the more oil the product contains since OC is an oily resin. It is the percentage of the OC that determines how long decon takes. However, decon is different from "no longer experiencing symptoms" of being OC'd. It does not mean that the subjects will be back to 100% once the OC is removed. Some folks experience residual effects for days before they are back to normal.

    Regarding the Scoville scale: The old school way of selecting a spray was to look at the Scoville scale and pick the one with the highest number. This worked to an extent, but it was far from scientific. Modern science and technology has now made it possible to take subjectivity out of the equation (which is how Scoville heat units were originally determined), and replace SHU with objective testing. Looking at the SHU for a determination of how "hot" a spray is not the most effective way to determine the strength of a product. HPLC is now the industry standard for determining the actual strength of a spray. Specifically ASTA 21.0. Most every reputable manufacturer no longer recognizes SHU.

    I'm not a fan of the pepper blaster. It is flawed for civilian self-defense, in my opinion. Although I've seen conflicting data, the company claims it is way more that 1 million SHU.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
  8. jlr1962

    jlr1962 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    544
    Location:
    Tejas
    A co-worker found a flashlight with a sprayer of some kind sticking out of the front of it while taking a seat out of a customer's car for service of some kind. Being the joker that he was, he started screwing around with it, and sprayed himself. It turned out to be some kind of pepper spray. He was not doing good for about 15 minutes. We used the emergency eye wash station for the first time that day. It didn't seem help the nosey technician. After it was all said and done, the store bought the customer a new spray light device @ $50.00. The customer apologized to the tech, and went on his way. That story lived for years.
     
  9. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thank you for sharing your experiences. Sorry to here that there where injuries to the men and women in your command.

    "Vapor" OC is fairly new in the industry, but it has gotten rave reviews from most every department and corrections that have deployed it. Some say it works too well.

    Pepperball kind of touches on something I mentioned above, when I specifically stress a 100% OC product. Aside from blends like OC+CS/CN, there is also pelargonic acid vanillylamide or PAVA. Although there are different types of pepper balls, the most commonly used are those that contain PAVA. Sounds like this is what may have been used. PAVA is a synthetic form of OC and it is not nearly as effective as the real thing. Europe is the largest user of PAVA. For some reason it is the spray of choice there.

    OCT
     
  10. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thank you for sharing that, jlr1962. Sounds like someone stumbled upon the Tigerlight :)

    OCT
     
  11. jlr1962

    jlr1962 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Messages:
    544
    Location:
    Tejas
    The tech in question was eventually fired for "stumbling upon things". I looked at the current tigerlight products. Things have changed since the late eighties. This one had a thin metal pin like sprayer nozzle sticking through the reflector assembly of what looked like a 2 cell D battery flashlight. Probably a classic these days.
     
  12. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    No video = but

    I did not have 'video' while working as an LEO, but after using many different brands [ mostly those marked S&W ] I did see more than 2 fail to stop with OC.

    Either they were very high,drunk or just immune.

    I know I got blasted in booking after using it on a crack head who then FOUGHT with myself and 2 other officers.WE sure as hell felt the effects.

    It took a ASP to stop him,then it took a half hour to clear the air up in booking.
     
  13. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    It depends on what era you used S&W. S&W's original formulations were CN (tear) gas, AKA Mace spray. The company was sold and became what we know today as MACE Brand Int. When S&W reemerged years later, then they began making OC spray. CN gas has been known to have failures. There has never been a case where a pure OC product entered a person's eyes, and it had zero effect. The same can't be said for CN/CS gas, AKA mace.

    OCT
     
  14. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    Sorry but = wrong

    I was an LEO from 4/5/82 till 12/30/2007

    I started with CN,then was issued OC in many forms and they were mostly S&W's brand.

    And I carried bear stopper that I bought.

    I saw more than a few incidents were a DIRECT HIT with OC did NOTHING to either crack heads of those very intoxicated.

    And as we learned WE could fight off a blast when our butt was on the line.

    I saw the fails,that is my truth and I will swear to it.

    Even saw a fail to stop with a fully ready Taser,not often but it happened.

    And being a Taser & OC instr = I felt them both more than once.

    They worked on me,but I did fight off the OC more than once.
     
  15. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    All due respect, but I am not going to keep going around and around on this, OK? I asked you for specifics: exact brands, the strength (MC%), spray patterns. Your response was S&W. I will "allow" that you are a former D/T instructor. As such, you should be able to name these things very easily. The TASER comparison means nothing in the context of OC, so it's not even worth addressing.

    If you are saying you "fought through it" the same way the cadets fight through it in the videos, that means nothing. OC sprays one and only job is to inflame the mucosa. This inflammation will cause involuntary eye closure. Drunk, high, psychotic it doesn't matter. If the OC didn't cause the eyelids to slam, the pupils to dilate, and temporarily destroy the pH balance of the eyes, it's either because it wasn't a true OC product or more importantly, the OC simply did not connect with the mucosa. Period.

    You are confusing non-compliance with "it did nothing". OC is not an instant, whole body incapacitant. It is an eye incapacitant. People can and do continue to aggress after being sprayed. As long the OC makes contact with eyes, then these folks will be aggressing without vision. Depending of the strength of the OC (which is why I asked you for specifics), the amount that enters the mucus membranes, durations etc, the person sprayed will eventually quit. Some quit immediately, others it takes a little longer. But make no mistake, if the OC enters their eyes, they will have their vision impaired and/or completely (but temporarily) gone. If you are claiming that the OC did nothing, then the simple answer is this; it did not get into the eyes of the persons you sprayed. End of story.

    I have a simple, hypothetical challenge that I propose when this sort of thing comes up. For people who doubt the effects OC has on the human body. I don't recommend trying this, but it proves the point very well...

    You could not even keep your eyes open if a few drops of hot sauce entered your eyes, much less OC spray. Let's take Tabasco sauce, for example. Tabasco original is the most widely available hot sauce. There isn't a person on earth who could take a few drops of Tabasco in their eyes and NOT have their eyes completely and fully incapacitated. You like to talk about SHU, as in a 1,000,000 SHU was the only acceptable product. Well guess what, Tabasco original isn't even 9,000 SHU and it will completely and utter incapacitate the human eye with just a few drops. But before you go trying it- know this, it has already been done. No one has been able to do it... and no one ever will.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  16. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    Excuse me

    I did not get even slightly rude, I expect the same = please.

    I retired 12/30/2007 and I am most likely a good bit older than yourself.

    The memory is a bit softer in older men [ and women ] and being gone for more than a decade since the incidents I mentioned ---- see there is a slight problem with your demands for brands etc !.

    And I do not know your actual street use of ASR, so I am guessing it is not hundreds of incidents of use ?.

    in 26 years I used and witnessed hundreds of STREET use [ not the same as academy ] and I saw cans EMPTIED with no results ---- other than the officers [ me included ] choking on that much gas.

    I totally agree that no SOBER person can take any eye contact with gas,a thumb, or ANY substance ------ but stoned and violent people have done so ,I will swear to that fact.

    I have a few cans left of the stuff I used,and will post a pic if I can [ not a puter person ].
     
  17. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    I beg to differ, sir. When you say things like you will "allow" me to call my self this or that, it comes off as condescending, no? I realize it is hard to dechiper tone it text, but the way you are phrasing your sentences, particularly the use of punctuation and the headings of your posts are very disjointed and confusing. Either way it's not a big deal. I apologize if you found my last response rude.

    There is nothing wrong with questioning someone or having a difference of opinion. I realize some of this subject matter can be controversial, but I always like to provide proof when possible. When you understand human physiology, and the hows and whys something like OC works on us, it all becomes very clear. Drugs or no drugs, it will not change the outcome if something foreign enters the human eye (like OC)...When it doubt, there's youtube :) which is super helpful in putting some theory into action. If there was any proof that someone, somewhere was immune to OC, it would have already been posted on youtube. As to your experiences, my last post already addressed it. Take care...

    OCT
     
  18. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    Ok then

    We shall agree to disagree that my personal experience is a bit beyond your classrooms stuff.

    I allow that the puter does not make for person to person interaction and I ask your forgiveness if I came across rude.

    BUT ,none the les I did use many brands on the street under field conditions .

    And "you tube" was not even a factor during my first few decades on the streets.

    So "seeing it on you tube" was not even close to an option !

    I used a few different brands of OC in the academy and we had AMAZING results ,that has NOTHING to do with street and field results as I witnessed.

    If you have not been there,PLEASE try to get out to a few hundred uses of OC and then tell me that you do not witness the results that I did ?.
     
  19. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    No problem, scaatylobo. It's water under the bridge. You are certainly entitled to you opinion, and it is absolutely your prerogative to disagree with me.

    Although I'm not LEO, my experience is far from "classroom" stuff. I have massive amounts experience in just about every aspect of this industry, spanning three decades. It's just not my style to talk about them and mention it at every turn. I prefer to just pass along the knowledge that I've obtained to help others. For example, I'm a former senior OCAT instructor. So, chances are that you were taught by someone like me.

    Also, these products don't just appear on the market. There is a ton of R&D performed by even the worst pepper spray brands. We absolutely test to see if the products will work on someone under the influence drugs and/or alcohol-through clinical trials-working with expert medical professionals and chemists. That is the very reason OC spray is now the gold standard defense spray, because unlike CN (tear gas) it works on those under the influence. It's also why OC is used in bear spray...I've personally created 2 formulations. Start to finish... I was involved in first-of-a-kind studies, working with prison systems for inmate control and compliance with chemical sprays. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    My point about youtube is this. There are a billion YT users a month. A billion a month! In 79 counties and 61 languages and it's been around for a decade now. There are upwards of 160,000 videos just on pepper spray. Of that 160,000, there are roughly 3 that claim pepper spray didn't work. Of those 3, it wasn't OC that was used in the video. It's pava spray or tear gas, and those video are incorrectly titled. The take away is this; if there was in fact a person who had immunity to OC spray, the odds are that it would have been posted for the world to see. Especially when there is something on there called "The Pepper Spray challenge." Heck, I would have flown out to see it with my own two eyes, to be honest.

    Anyway, thanks for participating in the discussion.

    OCT
     
  20. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Western NYS
    LOL

    You proved my point.

    Your knowledge is from T&E ing and not the streets.

    Your insistence that ALL those that had no stoppage with OC are useless IF they happened prior to youtube !.

    Many of the incidents I refer to are of such date & time.

    I agree that better than 95 % of those that are "Maced" do react in a manner that allows the LEO to take control.

    BUT that does not account for the many incidents were it had little or NO ,repeat NO effect except that on the officers left gagging and coughing and still attempting to control the perp.

    I am sorry that you do not see the street use that does not work,it would give you more insight.

    And ALL of my instructors were from a 'few' decades back and they were all police instructors from a agency that was either mine or another in the same AO.

    Please let me know the dates you stated as that has a great deal to do with "youtube" that you seem to hold in high esteem.

    I stated as an LEO in 1982 !.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
  21. glistam

    glistam Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2009
    Messages:
    712
    Location:
    Maryland
    I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation of some kind. I'm a scientist and I like to explore all possibilities. I count immunity as "possible, but so far documentable medical evidence is insufficient."

    Is it possible that in some cases the OC fails to come in contact with the surface of the suspect's eye and mucus membranes? This would give the appearance of no effect, a lot like when you deploy a TASER and one or both probes don't actually reach the skin (the actual reason that Taser's sometimes "fail"). Regarding this theory, I offer the following video of a sheriff's deputy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2A3SK-YEek

    I noticed in the video that the OC is sprayed while his eyes are closed and scrunched. The spray appears so thick it doesn't run at all, and when his eyes are open, the area surrounding the eye appears bare of any OC. It also seems to miss his nose and mouth entirely. During altercations, it may be possible for a suspect close his eyes or even shield his face from the spray, to the point it doesn't get into the eyes.
     
  22. OpticsPlanet

    OpticsPlanet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    823
    Location:
    Northbrook, IL
    AS INTERESTING AS THIS BACK AND FORTH IS.....;)

    OC-T, do you conceal carry? i ask because i believe you indicated that you carry OC regularly, so I am curious if you carry both....if you do, is the plan to deploy one and then the other if needed (assuming situation is conducive) or is the plan to deploy one OR the other? just trying to figure out the best/common ways of incorporating OC into daily conceal carry.

    Regarding the dyes/colors of the sprays....is that so the user can see where/what has been sprayed or is it more like the "UV dye" as in an ID tool if the aggressor flees?

    If someone were wearing goggles/glasses (unable to get spray in the eyes) then how effective would you guess/assume OC is? still worth deploying?

    Is the US the major/largest market for OC? (i am inclined to believe so simply due to our prison situation) If so, who is coming in at number 2?

    In your opinion, what is the future or next step for OC? or what would you like to see? (minor example, when I first saw a pepperball gun years ago i thought they would be much more common by now...or that prisons would have automated chem sprays)

    Similarly, do you think OC can advance or would the next evolution in a deterrent/chemical spray be something superior to OC? (or maybe there is no need to advance since the effectiveness is unscientifically disputed)

    What is/was your favorite aspect of working in the industry? Designing formulas, teaching, testing, etc?

    Thanks,

    Matt S.
     
  23. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    You are just not getting. I've already explained the phenomenon that you allegedly experienced. If you choose not to accept the explanation, then that is your choice. You completely and totally missed the point about youtube. It is about the math and statistical probability, based on a very large sample sizes, not the site itself. I could give you link after link, page after page of empirical data that supports everything I've been saying (Yet you can't even tell me the strength of the product that "failed"). But it wouldn't make any difference. That would be fool's errand on my part, and it wouldn't change a thing. Bottom line: believe what you want to believe. It is as simple as that.
     
  24. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thanks for posting that, glistam. That video is exactly the type of thing that I'm referring too. And I completely agree with your assessment of it. Starting with the eyes closed is garbage and it gives the person being sprayed a false sense of security. The OC will only work if it makes contact with the mucosa. When the OC eventually made it into that guys eyes (if at all) his eyes would be closing. Who knows what brand that was, but it may very well have been a gel spray. I am not a fan of gels for that very reason- they do not run into the eyes. More often than not they are half the strength of comparable streams and cones, too. It's videos like that that cause so much confusion.

    When I get in front of a full keyboard, I'll go into some more depth of how far I went looking for somone with immunity to OC.

    OCT

    Edit to add: Ok, back at a real keyboard...The video you linked is and excellent example of how the "pepper spray immunity" myth continues to have legs. The question I always like to ask myself with videos like this is "Why would sheriff's deputy start with his eyes clamped shut?" The answer, of course... if he didn't, he wouldn't be able to see once sprayed.

    My journey to actively seek out and find someone who could possibly have a "capsaicin immunity" was a long, winding one. I'll spare everyone all the boring details, but it ultimately lead to a dead end.

    First, we completely ignored the fact that we are born with the "capsaicin receptor" (TRVP-1). We also ignored the fact the OC spray works by way of inflammation on the body, and not pain (unlike tear gas). This left only one possible group of people that could even remotely have the potential to have this immunity. Those with congenital insensitivity to pain (CIP), more specifically Congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis (CiPA). This is an extremely, extremely rare condition, with only 20 known cases in the US and only a few hundred documented in history. Long story short, these individuals would be even more affected if sprayed with OC, than someone who could feel pain. If these folks born without pain receptors can't be immune to it, then obviously someone on drugs or in a chemically altered state doesn't stand a chance, and are absolutely affected by OC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  25. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    @OpticsPlanet

    Matt,

    As soon as I get in front of a full-sized keyboard I will answer these great questions.

    Thanks,

    OCT
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice