Quantcast

Pepper Spray--The Truth

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by OC-Trainer, Dec 17, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,090
    Location:
    Western NYS
    CLASSROOM v/s LIFE

    You are just not getting. I've already explained the phenomenon that you allegedly experienced. If you choose not to accept the explanation, then that is your choice. You completely and totally missed the point about youtube. It is about the math and statistical probability, based on a very large sample sizes, not the site itself. I could give you link after link, page after page of empirical data that supports everything I've been saying (Yet you can't even tell me the strength of the product that "failed"). But it wouldn't make any difference. That would be fool's errand on my part, and it wouldn't change a thing. Bottom line: believe what you want to believe. It is as simple as that.

    READ ALL YOUR MISSIVE and it is you who refuse to accept that the classroom has nothing to do with reality.

    I saw what I saw and that is THE bottom line,enjoy your little lecture hall sir = I am done.

    I am sure you and those that follow your stuff will enjoy the void of REALITY.
     
  2. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pShuE09VsjI
     
  3. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Matt,

    Great questions... I do CCW. I can't always carry because of my lifestyle, and certain places I frequent, but I never, every leave home without carrying OC in some capacity. There are couple of different schools of thought on carrying both, of course. Some make the argument that in a flight of flight situation they don't want to lose precious time trying to decide which option to use. I personally like to have options in that sort of situation. For me, I believe that there are many situations I may encounter where lethal force would not be warranted. Super complex and passionate subject, I know. But like most everything else, it comes back to training and comfort level.

    To be perfectly honest, I've always disliked the UV dye. I refused to incorporate into my formulations. I feel it is a gimmick when it comes to defense sprays and just a marketing bullet point. I've yet to come across a police officer or department that carried black lights in there cars. I am, however, a huge believer in overt dyes in a product.

    Regarding googles/glasses: I have a very in-depth "countermeasure" post that I've been working on. To my knowledge, the things that I will be discussing have never been public addressed anywhere online.

    You nailed it, Matt. US is #1, in large part because of the use of OC in prisons, and we are also the largest consumers of it on the civilian side too. I'm note quite sure which country would be #2. I guess it could be broken down into two categories. Professional use vs civilian use. Off the top of my head, I would say India would be right behind us in terms of civilian use. As for professional use i.e. LE or military it is hard to quantify because OC is banned in many places for civilians, but available to LE. Even then, those places favor PAVA (synthetic OC) for some unknown reason.

    In my opinion, aerosolized OC has already been perfected. Bear spray is as perfect as it gets when it comes to OC spray. There really isn't anywhere to go after that in the aerosol spray category. It is strong enough to absolutely "crush" any land mammal. You really can't go much hotter than that without causing permeant injury or death. Pepperball launchers are a restricted item and for all intents and purposes can't be purchased by civilians. If that where to change (along with some other aspects of the units themselves) I think they would be more popular.

    The future of OC can be broken down to the legality of it and the state of the industry. There is the legality aspect (it is already banned in many countries. Is the US next?) and the state of the industry as a whole. The products are getting more and more gimmicky. I mean, do we really need a laser sight on a two ounce can of OC spray :) Since OC spray has already been perfected, we are seeing so much garbage being released. All of this is to spur sales and I think that is a disgrace. Most of what is being released will not be useful in the event of a physical assault, either due to poor design, poor formulations, or both. And that brings me to what I would like to see next...

    My emphasis right now is bringing products to market that are not only effective, but easy to use under duress. The fact that most of us become "all thumbs" in a flight or flight situation is a huge concern for me. Training is paramount of course, but the truth is that the majority of people who purchase pepper spray either a) have no idea how to use it and b) will not train with it and/or have zero SD training of any kind. It is merely a talisman attached to their keyring, and most likely sitting in the bottom of their bag. I'm looking to change that through education, and more true to life innovations that are actually beneficial during an attack. Instead of a hindrance like most of the stuff out there now.

    Thanks again for the questions, Matt. And please let me know if you need anything else.


    Edit to add: The best part of being in this industry for me has been the teaching aspect. Although it's cool to be involved on the R&D side of things, I never want to lose sight of why I took this career path to begin with... to be involved with an industry that can help people protect themselves.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  4. joe_security

    joe_security Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    490
    I'm using def tec first def 1.3mc. I have mk2 mk3 mk4 both stream and cone. I dont bother with mk6/mk8. Our area has violent street robberies where the victims are knocked out and stripped of all property.They wake up in the ER with nothing. CCW is available here. Can you think of a better OC that I should be using? I have been using this OC since it was labeled bodyguard LE10. I consider my mk4 cone as an OC shotgun for close range emergency.Your thoughts ?
     
  5. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thanks for the question, Joe.

    Def-tech is excellent pepper spray. Strong, reliably formulas and excellent QC. The MC% (at 1.33) is the "golden ratio" for defense spray against two legged predators. Only bear spray and UDAP "Worlds Hottest" are stronger (2% MC and around 3% MC respectively). It sounds like you may switch out the spray patterns depending on weather conditions? Great strategy and highly recommended. My go to, is always a cone above 1% MC, unless I know there will be unusually high winds for my area.

    I'm not sure where you are located, but I know in certain major metro areas the type of attack you are describing sounds like "The knockout game". An ambush stye attack, usually involving teams of 2 or 3. In light of that, I would remain in "condition yellowish-orange" as much as possible through that area, with OC in hand at all times. The cone pattern would also be preferred for dealing with multiple threats.

    Stay safe and please let me know if you need anything else.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  6. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    I agree. I carry both OC spray (Sabre Red at the moment) and a firearm. Plenty of wild dogs in my area and I would rather not shoot a dog if it can be avoided. So I have the spray in my pocket. I also carry a pocket knife so it is good to have options.

    I am not as deep in the industry as you are but I don't think OC in the US is going anywhere anytime soon. With all the cop on citizen shootings that have been happening lately, there will be more emphasis on less lethal options ie tasers and OC spray in certain situations. As far as OC being perfect I would disagree, at least in part. You said yourself that OC doesn't really expire, the propellant is what goes bad. There is some room for improvement.
     
  7. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thank you for bringing that up. You actually touched upon, what I believe, is the industries achilles heal. The aerosol itself. But that is more about the aerosol industry and physics then anything else. On one hand, getting 4-5 years (depending on brand) is actually a long time, I think. As long as the unit isn't used and stored properly, you buy it as a freshman in college and have it until you graduate. Not a bad value for 12 bucks. However, aerosols are a logistics nightmare. They must be shipped ORM-D (ground only) and are considered Hazmat. You can't leave them in a car or store them over 120 F. Not to mention that the majority of them can't be sprayed from different angles.

    The new technology being used with OC spray is called Bag-on-valve, which allows the unit to be sprayed from any orientation. Unfortunately, it can only be used in the 1oz and up size canisters. Kimber/JPX was thought to be the future with "charges" to propel the OC, but that causes its own set of problems. And even those still have a shelf-life.

    I want to believe that pepper spray isn't going to be banned in the US. Sadly, recent trends are making me wonder about that more and more, though. There are more universities banning pepper spray on campuses every year. Every once in a while some universities wake up, and realize how foolish that is, and lift the ridiculous ban. Hopefully more will follow suit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  8. bainter1212

    bainter1212 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,175
    This is a long thread and it may have been mentioned already but......what do you think of the Kimber Pepper Blaster? I like the concept in that it can be used like a firearm and carried like one too.
    Any thoughts?
     
  9. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Thanks for the question, bainter. I briefly mentioned it before, but now is a good time to go a little more in-depth about it.

    In short, I'm not a fan of it. Here's why:

    -It uses gel oc. Easily the hardest dispersion pattern to use effectively. Since it doesn't run.

    -It can cause permanent damage when used at close range. Almost all civilian usage of pepper spray occurs within a 2-3 foot range. Manufacturer recommends not using it in this range.

    -It has a gun-like appearance. That's not a good thing in this case.

    -The "top/bottom" firing, makes it very difficult to aim (and hit the eyes, accurately)

    -You only get two shots vs 5-20 (depending on brand and spray pattern) with a similarly sized aerosol canister.


    There are many, many better options out there, in my opinion.

    OCT
     
  10. bainter1212

    bainter1212 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,175
    Thank you! Very informative.
     
  11. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    @bainter1212
    My pleasure...

    Here is the most realistic test to date on the unit. You see some of what I mentioned play out. Every other test video of it that I'm aware of is completely unrealistic. It's long and there's some profanity.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yiByPsy2W8
     
  12. DaisyCutter

    DaisyCutter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2010
    Messages:
    572
    Location:
    Arizona
    OC works very well on me.

    I took a facefull point blank in the academy. Saber Red, the academy uses the unused expired shelf life canisters from patrol. They still work fine. I wasn't holding my breath and didn't have my eyes closed. It felt like I put my face in a boiling french fry oil vat, it burned so badly. My throat was on fire. It's unimaginable, and then it gets worse. The pain ratchets up, second by second.

    What the instructors told us recruits, which is 100% true in my experience, is that people either fold in tears, or go berzerk. Don't be in front of them, in case they go berzerk. They may thrash you like the hulk.

    That is the trick. If I get hosed with OC, then I'm going full berzerk hulk smash on my adversary(ies).

    Most of the recruits will close their eyes or require a guiding hand to complete the "course". But the ones who can summon their rage... can fight through it. I can go 20-30 seconds before I get oxygen deprived. I honestly can't force myself to breath efficiently once I'm exposed. OC is not like tear gas. Tear gas is like a spring day once you leave the contaminated area, compared to OC which is excruciating and sticks on you. Your lungs refuse to inhale anything but the smallest gasp.

    OC will also reactivate, and I can still feel a tingle when I get in the shower 2 or 3 days later.

    About 6-7 days later, my eyelids peel off. They come off in a single flap of skin, similar to a sunburn, but a chemical burn. Then I walk around looking like a mongoloid for a week, because my eyelids have no creases.

    OC is hella nasty stuff, but if you beat your chest like king kong and visualize smashing your adversary, then you can fight through it for a while.

    If you ever use it, you WILL have some degree of exposure.

    I've never used it in on another human outside of training, but have hosed a handful of dogs on the job.

    BTW, get the liquid cone style. The foam is pathetic.

    299180085.jpg

    OC day = no fun

    301827953.jpg

    J-turn day = all fun
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  13. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    @DaisyCutter

    Great post! Pretty much sums up the entire experience.
    is great advice. Spray, move, then (for civilians) flee if at all possible.

    OCT
     
  14. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    OCT: I probably already know but how do you feel about the Piexon JPX?
     
  15. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    herrwalther,

    This is the one of the only products where I have a hard time finding even one redeeming quality with it.

    It suffers from the same weaknesses that the Kimber PB does (post #310), except this one is on steroids. See, a big part of less-than-lethals (LTLs) is that they are much less likely to cause death. LTLs should also not have the ability to cause permenant damage. Of all of the OC products on the market, this one has the greatest chance of permanently blinding someone. Let's take a look at the manufacturers recommended usage.*


    Yeah, right. That is not happening in a real world attack, in my opinion. It just isn't. Even those with extensive training with the unit have an extremely difficult time using this product properly under duress. The JPX is/was involved in both criminal and civil lawsuits, for permanently blinding a woman. User error played a part, but there isn't any other OC product on the market (except for those with propulsion charges) that would slice someone's eyeball in half at close range. The fact that larger sizes of aerosol OC can easily spray the same distances as the JPX and still be used in close without permanently blinding someone, makes the JPX a "solution that needs a problem" in my mind.

    *(Source)
    http://jpxpeppergun.net/jpxdocs/jpxfaqs.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    I knew that was what you would say about it. Because that is what I thought it looked and sounded like when I came across the product description. And at $300, that is another reason it probably won't be a lasting product.
     
  17. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Lol. You know me well, herrwalther. I am nothing if not consistent ;)

    Yeah, both the same company/technology. Like you mentioned, price is also another major consideration. It was supposed to be the future. Hasn't worked out that way. Besides the propulsion capsules being extremely dangerous, they have a shorter shelf-life than aerosols (3 years). Which is also pretty lame. Also, this is about that scariest warning I could think of for a "less-than-lethal" product designed to be deployed in someones face...
    OCT
     
  18. joe_security

    joe_security Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    490
    I too have turned away from the PB and never bothered with the JPX. I'm thinking UDAP. The Mugger fogger seams like its mk4 size, my OC of choice. OCT, what's your take on the def tec 360? Is this the "bag on valve" you mentioned here previously ?
     
  19. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    joe,

    The Mugger Fogger is great stuff.

    Yes, the D-Tech 360 does use Bag-on-Valve technology (BOV) I like just about everything from Def-tec. Here's how it works in a nutshell: The OC is filled in a bag that is inserted into the canister. The propellant is then filled between the bag and the canister. The propellant never comes in contact with the OC fill. Unlike traditional defense spray aerosols, you can use air or nitrogen, in lieu of 134a. This technology allows the canister to be fired from any orientation. A tactical advantage I strongly believe in. For example, if you are knocked to the ground, and now must fire the pepper spray at someone who is standing over you. A "regular" OC aerosol will not fire at those angles. The only drawback with BOV is that it currently only comes in a stream spray pattern.

    So this begs the question, "Why isn't this used with all defense sprays?" A couple of reasons besides the one I already mentioned. Cost, and the technology is not available (yet) that will allow the BOV to be used in 1/2oz keychain units (by far, the most used pepper spray size by civilians, btw). It is only available in mk2 and up (2oz sized canisters).

    Here is a list of all the products with "360" capabilities:*

    Keychain
    "Spitfire" by Sabre
    ASP "Defender" series
    Sabre "tactical" spray baton

    Mk2/2oz
    Defense-Tech 360
    "Crossfire" by Sabre

    *There are one or two other "wearable" defense sprays that can be sprayed from any orientation, but because of other design flaws, I don't recommend them.


    Hope this helps, joe. Please let me know if/when you need anything else in the future.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  20. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    2,090
    Location:
    Western NYS
    PLEASE ask .

    I promise to never darken these pages again with real world knowledge use of OC.

    But to all who plan on using this to save yourself or a loved one,I beg you to please ask a officer that has actual street knowledge from USE of all the products available.

    If you don't know what to actually expect ,AND what your back up plan is [ after a fail to stop ] then your not practicing and training with your life and health in mind.

    I don't have a horse in ANY race as to the abilitys of ANY product to save your bacon,I am retired and not selling anything .

    Just hope your not listening to ANYONE as gospel [ yes,even me ].

    The streets are the ONLY place the effects matter ,that I will stand on.
     
  21. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Despite breaking your self-imposed ban, you make some good points. However, those same LEOs will also say how the gun "failed to stop," how the TASER "failed to stop," how the ASP "failed to stop," too. Outside of a direct CNS hit, nothing is an instant incapacitant 100% of the time. I make the distinction that OC spray is an eye incapacitant and anything else is a bonus. Civilian usage of pepper spray (and what we need it to do in an attack) is very different from what the law enforcement sector needs it to do. The sooner you can recognize that the better.

    See, you're confusing my kindness for weakness. I've tried to play nice with you, but you refuse to listen to reason. You presume to know my history with violence based on this thread. That is a mistake. You have no idea what I have or haven't done on "the street." You also have no idea what other training I have. You should not assume.

    The only "horse" I have in this race, is extolling the virtues of "temporary eye closers" and how they could be a very worthy addition to someone's layered self-defense approach. Pepper spray just so happens to be the state-of-the-art in this department at the moment. I have not and will not use this thread to sell any specific product by me. That would be unethical and would defeat the purpose of this thread-which sole purpose is to educate. That said, naturally there will be curiosity about specific products I am involved with in the future. I'm semi-retired from the defense spray business-now working as a consultant and educator only. If a member was interested in looking further into something that has my "stamp" on it, then I'd be happy to point them in the right direction in a PM, but only because I would not benefit from any retail sales of that product.

    The horse YOU have in the race is YOUR ego. That's why you can't let it go. All you've done is further prove the points I made in post #276. You bring nothing but hearsay. Perhaps you're a science denier, too? I don't know, but facts go a lot further than opinions. Maybe you should open your mind a little, you just may learn something here.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  22. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,751
    I am not sure about others but I have asked police officers what they carry. Most officers in my area are issued Freeze +p spray. One officer I know in particular said he would rather be shot, stabbed, or tased (he has been all three) than sprayed with Freeze again.
     
  23. OpticsPlanet

    OpticsPlanet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    824
    Location:
    Northbrook, IL
    Hey OC-T,

    Can you breakdown the canister sizes for us? For example, Mk 2 or Mk 4 are terms i am seeing commonly used here and by some LEO, but I cannot recall ever seeing those on an actual product. Is that an actual industry term for certain sizes or just widely accepted labels?

    Do the "shots" per canister change depending on your disbursement pattern?

    Do you have a personal recommendation for decon? or is there a method you favor based on what you've seen?

    For example, in the kimber pepper blaster vid you posted (really great video btw) after the second aka the effective shot, the recipient was pouring milk over his face. To me, it would seem more efficient to dunk/submerge your face/head in a bucket of milk...but maybe that is a big no-no since the pouring action does have the benefit of "washing away" the OC instead of just saturating it (and possibly spreading it).

    Finally, when using OC in self defense, what is the recommended disengage point? Do you spray once, assume you've made an effective hit, and flee? Do you "double tap" to try and ensure that you've gotten an effective hit (in case the attacker has closed their eyes or dodged/blocked the spray?) I am trying to compare this to a use of force (firearm) scenario where you are advocated to act until you have "stopped the threat" and can safely egress. As seen in spray vids and recipient accounts, some people do have a 20-30 second window where they can continue to function (although blindly and in pain). As one member put it, you can "fight through it for awhile". So would you flee immediately after deployment? Deploy until the threat is "incapacitated" (on the ground) and then flee? I understand/assume all situations are different but as we all have learned, having a plan is a major part of the battle so any advice/experience you can offer is appreciated

    -Matt S.
     
  24. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages:
    567
    Loving these questions, Matt! One of the (many) things that makes THR so great, is that we can get really deep on this subject matter. To your questions...

    The "Mk" designations have been used almost since the beginning of OC aerosols. Most of the terms began before my time in the industry, and there is some debate on how the terms came to be, but it was explained to me this way--Mark+the size of the spray (in ounces). For example, MK-2 would simply be the Mark+2oz sized canister. Here is where it gets a little confusing. The industry standard canisters go .5, .75, 2, 4. These are all in ounces and refer to the keychain and duty belt sizes only. So the MK-2 would be 2oz, MK-4 would be 4oz. Nowadays, there's MK-6, MK-9 and neither of them correspond to the actual "effective material fill." The MK-6 is .68 oz and the MK-9 is over 12 oz :confused: Outside of the MK-2 and MK-4 (which still generally contain 2 and 4 oz respectively) the terms are just used out of tradition, I suppose.

    The shots per do differ- depending on the spray pattern, and manufacturers' "shots per" claim. Almost all of the pepper spray packaging is bullet point non-sense. For example, Sabre claims 25 shots per .5 oz unit. Hogwash! They consider a "shot" a 1/2 second burst. It is very difficult to depress the actuator for that short of time. In reality, those small sizes have 10-12 "effective shots." What typically happens (when used in real world conditions) is the person spraying the unit will press and hold the actuator down and flail around. Only with training can someone learn to overcome the natural instinct to squeeze and keep squeezing the actuator. In general, streams will have the most shots. Stream>Cone>Gel>Foam in terms of shots per. With the exception of Inferno, foam OC is only found in the larger size units for this reason.

    Milk or any full-fat dairy product is the absolute best decon for capsaicin exposure. In short, the casein (milk protein) in dairy "loosens the grip" of capsaicin, and it will help to remove it from the receptors that it attaches to. Think sour cream in many mexican dishes. That said, it is probably too cost prohibitive for academies and the like to use milk for decon. So they go with the second best option, water (lots of it) and baby shampoo/dish soap. Dabbing milk-soaked cheese cloth, or gauze onto the face and eyes would be best.

    Regarding OC in SD: Here is a general guideline for using pepper spray effective as a civilian. Unfortunately, there aren't many good pepper spray tactics videos out there. The link below covers the basics and I've added to help visualize some of the basics.* I've added my own comments below it, with some additional tips.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhOwRfIMW_Q

    -Have the pepper spray in hand, or readily accessible. Especially when in high risk areas such as dark parking lots/garages, stairwells, etc. Unlike guns, there are no brandishing laws on the books regarding pepper spray.

    - The grip shown, is superior to any other grip. It will also allow you to strike, if need be. Either using the can as a kubaton or fist load.

    -The opposite hand can and should be held out if front of you; making a "stop" sign with you extended arm. This will allow you to push the attacker back and/or help block any attempts to knock the spray out of your hand.

    Know the different patterns and the best way to use them: Stream covered in video above. Cone- Up and down like painting with paint brush; bottom to top of face. Foam-circular motion toward the face.

    Aim for the perps lower chin/front of the neck on the initial shot. This is a technique that I developed over the years. The first thing that the perp will do is try to duck the spray. This will not only put them right in the thick of it, but it will allow you to self-correct the stream/mist of OC to the eyes, when your nerves get the best of you. With the testing we've done over the years, most first time users of pepper spray miss the head completely on the first shot. Reason-- aiming too high.

    -Immediately side step after deploying spray. Even if you land a direct hit to the ocular area, the perps momentum can carry them right into you and now you are in a grappling situation. Spray, move, and then run if at all possible.


    *This is a general overview. My upcoming post on "countermeasures" will delve deeper into the more advanced techniques.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
  25. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    OC that video and your comments brought a question to my mind.

    Is a their a significant difference in effect depending on the amount of exposure? For instance will a 5 second direct blast to the eyes have more affect than one second blast to the eyes?

    My general rule of thumb is more is better, but that has proven to be a a poor standard in the past, just ask my wife. :eek:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice