Personal true story. RV stop in ILL.

[oobray]

tecumseh, and tallpine,

The mere fact that kitchen knives, and a buck knife was in the vehicle doesn't give the LEO suspicion. It's the fact that they were lied about!! If the occupant lied about those two things, what else was he lying about. Well, hmm, he was lying about a handgun in the car. Well, wait a second, he was lying about a rifle in the car also!! Notice the officer did NOT ask, "Sir are there any weapons in here, either assembled or disassembled, or loaded or unloaded, or locked or unlocked." No, the LEO asked if there were any WEAPONS. To which the answer should have been, "yes, there is a knife on the visor, a revolver locked in a case and a non-working rifle under the bed. I'm sorry, but if I was the officer, and I was continually being lied to and then finding items that definately posed a danger to me, I would "frisk" (<-- which is different than search) the vehicle also. Then, based upon what is found/not found during the frisk can establish probable cause to do a detailed search.
Keep in mind that your 5th ammenment right to remain silent doesn't mean you have a right to lie or "mis-represent" yourself to the police. The occupant could have terminated his consent at anytime and told the officer to leave. And the bottom line, is that the job of the police is to find criminals. If you give them the opportunity they are going to look for evidence of criminal activity, or evidence that you pose a danger to them. Just as everyone on this forum regards strangers as a potential threat until proven otherwise, the LEO definately look at anyone as a potential threat until proven otherwise. And the fact that the occupant continually lied about the presence of a weapon definately gives the LEO reason to believe that the occupant poses a danger!!!!

 

[Mumwaldee]

I'm not sure when this took place, but do agencies train their officers to do this? Wouldn't it be foolish to step inside a multi-occupant RV OUT of the view of dashboard camera without backup?

He sounded like a young over-zealous eager beaver. He's (the LEO) is lucky he ran into Joe Schmo and not a pack of smugglers or he would most likely not be with us any longer.

I think he instigated this. If he knocks on the door and you tell him to go to the driver's window...doesn't he now have enough suspicion to give him cause to search?

I wonder how we're supposed to talk to LEOs without sounding smarmy or indignant. I need a RP voice for dealing with these situations. "I need you to step around to the driver's window officer...I think that's reasonable."

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

This thred has it all...

Drama, Paranoia, guns, cops, cars, and women.

What a film we could make.

While I generally agree that allowing a search of your person or vehicle is not required and a clear exercising of your rights, I wouldn't browbeat the original poster too much.

Some here among us are obviously paranoid in the extreme.

As this story illustrates the officers did not try and frame you, or punish you for anything you didn't do.

You were inconvenienced because when asked a direct question you gave a somewhat evasive, though accurate answer.

Scenario: the officer asked the question about the weapons, took you for your word, he returns to his unit to wrote th cite, you grab the gun and shoot him upon his return.

What this boils down to is that he wants to be the judge of what concerns him. The guy just wants to go home at the end of the shift.

I always wonder about people who are so afraid and defiant of the police.

 

[CountGlockula]

I like to see both views of discussion. I feel that it enables me to see the "Bigger picture" and not be so narrow minded...that's why I enjoy this forum.

Yes we are not humble. He allowed the officer to come into his home for the health and safety of the officer and the officer took advantage of that.

I'm glad you admit to your pride. Again, we see it as "THEM" taking advantage. To "THEM" it's an opportunity to prevent a crime.

I understand it is their job to question us. Just as it is my job as a citizen to make sure the government and its agents do not abuse us or violate our rights.

Good for you and I highly agree.

You make LEOs sound like some noble knights in shining armor who will protect us poor townsfolk from the barbarian hill people and dragons.

Believe me, I've had my share of "bad" cops. More like someone doing their job and other's not allowing them to do it. It's comes in both ways my friend.

So far the only crime the original poster is guilty of is having a broken taillight.

...and neglecting that he had weapons in the vehicle. Is that a crime? No, but at least the situation didn't turn out deadly. More like a personal crime of forgetfulness.

 

[oobray]

Mumwaldee,

No, that would NOT constitute reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle. First of all, an officer has to have probable cause to search the vehicle. He can do a "frisk" which I have defined previously, based upon reasonable suspicion. Later in court, or to the DA the LEO is going to have to give articulable facts that led the reasonable suspicion/probable cause. The denail of consent cannot be legally used as an articulable fact.

 

[jselvy]

I stand by my statements.
By being hospitable he was subjected to an unwarranted search predicated on his possession of kitchen utensils. If there is a kitchen there must be utensils.
I have no beefs with the cops that are on the up and up and do their jobs honorably and well. But they are a vanishing breed. Downright endangered species.
Every cop and I mean every cop that does not make a loud, public stand up to and including resignation when the unions and fraternal orders lobby for expanded powers is a criminal in violation of the U.S. Constitution and their own oath of office. The officers that follow unconstitutional orders are not by definition good cops.
I am weary of being told to kneel for my own good. This kind of attitude has led to the rampant abuse of power so prevalent among the law enforcement community.
I don't have to answer any nosy question from anybody, especially not my employees. And that's what cops are, my employees as long as my money is taken from me with menaces to pay their salary.
The Cops still haven't answered what a burnt taillight has to do with kitchen knives.
Read the sig.

Jefferson

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Well, this thread was certainly taught me not to voluntarily submit to a vehicle search.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

gunsmith

I wish we had a National Law or something like the Bill Of Rights that we could rely on to enumerate our rights.

Funny.

There's a fine example of irony.

I really can't improve on it.

Now . . .

Back to the original scenario: what happens if the occupant, in response to the "it's cold, may I come in" question says, "oh, sorry officer, just a sec, I'll get a coat on and join you out there; we can sit in your car if it's cold."

• "Is there some reason I shouldn't come in?"
• "The place is a mess, the missus is sleeping, and I'm sure you didn't pull us over to discuss housekeeping. Wait right there."
• "Why did you come out instead of letting me in?"
• "Officer, you're right, it's cold out here. What can I help you with? Do I have a flat tire?"

And so on.

I'm sure LEO training makes them nosy. I'm fine with that.

The problem, in reality, is found in that Ayn Rand quote about making so many things a crime that you can't help but break the law.

You're not trying to break the law, but no particular effort is required for that to happen.

Odds are, the more time and exposure you allow, the more likely you will fall afoul of something obscure in the Revised Statutes or Penal Code, and off you go.

In the instance being discussed, I would say our OP caught something of a break.

It's not a case of "OMG cops are SO BAD" but more a case of "you can't live your life without some kind of transgression."

And, from the viewpoint of the law, it don't much matter if the transgression is intentional. "Ignorance of the law" and all that.

I carry a knife in my car. It's a tool. I never go anywhere without it. I'm sure there's some statute somewhere that could be construed such that I'm "concealing a weapon." However, if asked about the "weapon" my response would be along the lines of "you mean 'tool', don't you?"

I don't maintain an adversarial relationship with the police.

I also don't offer them any more opportunities for "revenue" than I have to.

A job like that would suck, and I'm glad I don't work in that field.

Even so, it's hard for me to muster excessive sympathy for someone whose job it is to "catch me breaking the rules."

"That's okay, officer, I'll join you outside; wait right there."

 

[Mumwaldee]

Anyone got a lead on "COME BACK WITH A WARRANT" welcome mats?

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Perhaps this has been addressed, but I feel compelled to throw my thoughts in:

1. I should have not let the first officer in. Doing so gave all the other officers permission to enter as well.

No it didn't.

The RV was my home. Anything in the driver area forward of the seats is fair game for the most part. Anything behind the front seats is your home and they have no right to enter without a search warrant...

Not according to the US Supreme Court.

2. I should have directed the officer to the drivers door.

Ya, maybe.

3. People younger than sixty five driving RV's are highly suspicious.

Possibly. In the absence of any other "oddities", I wouldn't think they were that suspicious.

So again in summary, Never let a LEO in your RV without a warrant.

You probably won't be pleased with how things go if you try that.

Twenty latches were destroyed at $12 Bucks each to replace.

I should have probably filed a complaint but didn't.

Yes, you should have.

They may have had every legal authority to do what they did. In Michigan, the handgun would have been a felony. As another poster has pointed out, you violated the law in Illinois with the handgun, also. A weapon in the vehicle, illegally transported / stowed, is prima facie evidence of a crime. That establishes probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime exists within the RV. That gives them the authority to search.

I'd say you were given a big break. I know you don't think you said there were no weapons in the car. You did, though. You tried to play cute little word-games and mental gymnastics with the officer. So, you said there were no weapons in the RV, then they found some. As the peace officer that I am, I'd be more than a little upset at you in that situation, also.

from my own personal experience I say do not trust the police when they are looking into your business. They are out to make arrests at most any cost.
Truth and what is moral and right really does not come into play.

So you were breaking the law and thought no cop could ever catch you. One did. Now you're mad about it. Happens all the time.

 

[anotherKevin]

"Oh, the cop came in my home destroyed everything, questioned me and my family, treated me like a criminal, etc." Boo-hoo.

I have plenty of respect, as I'm sure you do, for LEO's and other authorities, but I haven't dropped this low. You might want to take a break and visit the USA periodically to get other perspectives.

 

[pcosmar]

This is exactly why we need to get rid of these stupid laws.
And then the people who enforce them.

 

[BBQJOE]

Wow!

I knew there would be a little stir from this post, especially since it crosses a lot of different issues, but the response I found amazing. I was hoping to enlighten some about what I learned, and ended up myself learning even more!
Let me try to clarify a few issues.

First, I was very unaware ( at the time) of all the gun laws and how they vary so greatly from state to state. Total stupidity on my part.
No argument, period.

I am now much more aware of gun laws and the law itself since obtaining my CCW a few years ago.

As I stated in the OP, I traveled sometimes three months at a time. My home is in the boonies and could easily be burglarized and I didn't wish for some theif to break in and steal my then precious few guns, so I kept them with me.

We traveled to many big cities, as well to many out of the way urban types of areas. Sometimes we would spend days on a project, camping out in parking lots alone by ourselves and available to anyone who may wish to whack us for one reason or another.

I knew the SKS was a questionable firearm, and that is why I kept it disassembled. Although it would be the most practical one to have on hand for an attack.
I did keep the .22 loaded, because in reality what good is an unloaded gun when it is needed? Granted, retrieving from a safe in dire need is almost as good as not having one at all, but nontheless it was there.

So much for the gun issue for now.

I clearly stated in the OP that MY biggest mistake was letting him in. And some here must have missed that or just enjoyed pointing out the obvious.

In my mind, I felt I posed no threat to the officer because I really did have nothing to hide and wasn't involved with doing anything illegal. Except being the owner of a vehicle with a burned out bulb.

He looked at the kitchen knives on the wall, and thought of them as weapons.
As far as the buck knife goes, I have no idea why my driver was stowing it there, but I guess I thought it kind of ridiculous when he saw the knives as a threat or mostly as weapons.
I never ever thought of them as that so it struck me as odd.
Especially since just about everything in an RV could be used as a weapon.

I had a fire extinguisher I could have easily grabbed off the wall and clonked him on the head with well before he had a chance to grab his sidearm.
I could have easily whacked him with the cutting board next to the sink.
Heck, for that matter I could have kicked him in the crotch well before he had a chance to defend himself.

Now on the other side of the coin I realize that the officer has no idea who I am or whether I pose a threat to him or not, and he is best to presume I am a threat right off the bat in order to protect himself in case I am.
The thought about my firearms at that point really did not cross my mind heavily because one was disassembled, and the other was locked away.

My intent when asked about other weapons, was to diffuse any thought he may have had concerning his safety or well being and to let him know I was not a threat and meant him no harm.
I was not trying to be smart, nor was I trying to be evasive or lie at that time.

When the second officer asked specifically about guns, I felt somehow more intimidated by him and told him of the .22.
Upon seeing their response over the .22 I did become scared over the fact I had the SKS and what they might think if I produced it.
So yes at that point I did lie about having any other guns, and in hindsight I should have been honest, but believe me, with all the squad cars arriving I was scared poopless to say the least, even though I thought I was not guilty of any major infraction of the law.

After reading the responses here I am still not sure whether or not I was improperly transporting the firearms or was guilty of criminal negligence.
(Obviously in some states I was well beyond being a criminal)
And in hindsight I could easily have been shot when I produced the firearm and I guess I am lucky for that or the officers reasonable awareness that I had no intent upon using it against him.

My original intent of the Op was to shed a little light on RV owners and what can happen if you allow LE into your vehicle/home, and give them a warning, and maybe some info as well as far as what not to do.

I did not post to cry, whine, or complain.
I did what I did, got what I got, and didn't get what I see I might have gotten.

I am a much wiser man from the experience, and I hope some of you are now too.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Illinois' gun laws are not terribly clear and are made more unclear by the fact that a lot of people have tried to muddy them further.

The thing is, I've always believed that the law means what it says--that there are three ways to transport a firearm legally in your vehicle, and by doing any one of those ways, you may comply with the law. The second way is to have the gun "inaccessible." It doesn't say "Inaccessible and unloaded" or "inaccessible and encased." It just says inaccessible.

Now, I can't tell you that some judge somewhere didn't effectively change this by accepting some prosecutor's argument that "inaccessible" still requires that the gun be unloaded, but I don't see where it says that in the law.

The problem as raised before is that "inaccessible" itself is kind of a murky term. If you can grab the gun without having to stop the vehicle and go somewhere else, Illinois law considers it accessible. If it takes a little more effort to get to it, you might be able to argue the point, but I wouldn't expect to succeed. If it's in the RV and so are you, it's probably considered "accessible."

The SKS was broken down, which would be legal with a FOID even if it were accessible, but for you . . .

On the other hand, I think the humor of the officer's legal advice was lost on some of us as we debated whether to have a civil war. Put your rifle in the leg of a pair of blue jeans? Huh?
That ain't gonna be considered a case . . . . and as you say, when the next guy pulls you over and finds that you have a stripped rifle hidden in a pair of jeans, he's going to wonder which mafia family you work for.

 

[oobray]

jslevy,

he [the original poster] was subjected to an unwarranted search predicated on his possession of kitchen utensils.

WRONG!!! The original poster was subject to a vehicle frisk, due to the evasive nature in which he answered REASONABLE questions by the LEO. If I were an LEO and I entered an RV, or home, I would definately take notice of anything that might be used to cause me harm. If I found somehthing readily accessable, I would also inquire as to whether or not there were any other items readily accessable that could cause me harm.
Whether or not you want to believe it, a kitchen knife IS A WEAPON!!! However, the OP was not searched due to possession of these kitchen knives. HE WAS SEARCHED BECAUSE HE WAS EVASIVE, AND OUTRIGHT LIED!!!!!

BBQJOE,
I truly thank you for posting this, I think that it was very educational for most people, and I really like getting to apply laws and legal practice to real life scenarios. I'm glad that you were lucky, and the LEO was nice to you and didn't get you for the illegal transporting of weapons, which we all agree he could have. I think this even proves further that this particular LEO was not deliberately out to harm, or entrap you. Lesson learned, never allow an LEO to enter your personal space, EVER!! I don't care if you're not doing anything illegal. As we all can see, seemingly innocent actions can be seen totally differently by the law.
Glad, things worked out for you BBQJOE.

 

[TallPine]

If the stopping officer was so concerned about his safety and possible weapons in the RV, why did he even go inside in the first place? Seems a lot safer to address the unsafe vehicle (tail-light) issue from outside just like a normal traffic stop.

I've had misc contact with law enforcement over the years, but I've never experienced that kind of paranoia from them. I've even had guns drawn on me, but that was a case of mistaken identity that was immediately defused when they saw who I was (not). Just another little exciting story that is funny looking back on it.

I haven't been stopped in over 25 years now, but I guess if I am ever stopped in my work/ranch pickup and asked about "weapons" I will need to spend about 30 minutes reciting every possible implement that might be used for harm: ax, shovel, chainsaw, jack handle, wrenches, screwdrivers, broom, blocks of wood, tire chains, log chains ... etc etc etc ....

Though I suppose the rifle in the rear window rack would be a dead giveaway

 

[Jeff]

Whether or not you want to believe it, a kitchen knife IS A WEAPON!!!

WRONG. A kitchen knife is a tool.

A kitchen knife is not designed to kill or maim another living creature, and unless the kitchen knife in question was used previously in such an act, it cannot be classified as a weapon. Anyone who tries to do so is behaving irrationally or dishonestly.

If I were an LEO and I entered an RV, or home, I would definately take notice of anything that might be used to cause me harm.

For crying out loud, that could be ANYTHING. As soon as you enter a stanger's domicile, you will be surrounded by numerous objects that might be used against you.

Question is, why are so many officers so damn eager to do such things if they think that everything around them is a weapon? In this particular case, the officer could have approached the driver and asked for the three pieces of documentation, as should have been expected.

His approach seemed a little over-zealous.

 

[sig228]

Anyone got a lead on "COME BACK WITH A WARRANT" welcome mats

go to target.com and serrch for "warrant mat"

 

[scout26]

Mrs Scout said "No" to the "Come back with a Warrant" doormat, but I got a "maybe" on the "Grow Dammit" garden stone.

 

[Kentak]

WRONG. A kitchen knife is a tool.

Be that as it may, I think you will find that, legally, a knife, whether a chef's knife or a USMC KaBar knife, is considered a deadly weapon. Often, in law, a blade length of 3 inches or so is the defining characteristic.

Suppose you and the wife are watching TV late one night and hear the sound of breaking glass. You go to the kitchen to find an intruder stealing your toaster. You confront him, and he grabs your prized Henckels chefs knife and raises it menacingly. Your wife screams, "OMG, he has a weapon!" You reply, "Don't worry, honey. It's only a kitchen tool. I think he means to prepare us a meal."

Later, in court, the intruder's attorney says, "Your Honor, I move to dismiss the charge of assault with a deadly weapon, since, as you can see (holding up your Henckel), this knife is a tool."

Get my drift?

 

[Gordon Fink]

[W]hy are so many officers so damn eager to do such things if they think that everything around them is a weapon?

They think they’re going to make drug busts. All the vehicle “frisks” and concern for “weapons” are means to slip around the Fourth Amendment.

~G. Fink

 

[silverlance]

a major problem in this in situation that no one else has discussed is the wording of the officer's question. He said, IIRC, "Are there any weapons in this RV?"

Now if someone asks me if I have any weapons in my car, I would hesitate. I have a swiss army pocketknife. Is that a weapon? I have a tire iron on my backseat. Is that a weapon? i have surgical scalpels in my medikit. are those all weapons? how about the tent stakes? Mom's knitting needles?

when i was stopped, the officer asked me, "Are there any FIREARMS in the car?"

That's MUCH more concise than "weapons", which is VERY difficult to quantify (and would cause problems if you asked the officer to be more specific)

 

[Kentak]

This discussion has gotten me thinking about the folding knife I keep in my center console (just under 3 inch blade). Anyone know Ohio law about that?

K

 

[jselvy]

Back when I was working on the RenFair cicuit we would have scared the life out any cop that asked us if we had weapons in the RV.
We regularly carried:
200 Footmen's pikes
60 Broadswords
300+ Broadhead arrow
4 Longbows
50+ Daggers of every description
14 maces

and a plethora of other medieval hardware that I can't remember.
I wonder how they would have reacted.

Jefferson

 

[Thin Black Line]

Years ago I had a friend pulled over in a Jeep Wrangler for speeding (really this
is a story about a friend and not me ). Officer tells him he was speeding and
friend didn't disagree. Askes for license, registration, etc, weapons (there
were none) and then reaches through the open Wrangler top and begins
rummaging through interior of the vehicle. LEO comes to the locked center
console and it won't open. My friend mentions matter of factly that he has
not consented to a search of his vehicle. LEO asks what's inside the locked
box. Friend reminds him that no consent was given. LEO asks what he's
hiding. Friend says "Get a search warrant."

LEO goes back to his car with papers in hand, no other cars arrive, and comes
back with speeding ticket. Friends hangs out and smokes 2-3 cigarettes for about
15-20 minutes --ya know just chillin'. Officer comes back clearly frustrated
and says "Sir, when are you leaving?" Friends says "Oh, I'm free to leave now?"
Officer says "Yes, you were when I gave you the ticket." Friend: "Do you have
to wait here until I leave now?" Officer: "Umm....yes....." Friend: "Gee, guess
this was 20 minutes of your time now wasn't it?"

So what was in that locked box? CDs and cigarettes.....

Hold your chin up, be a CITIZEN and use your rights.