Petals thru bone

[2zulu1]

Is that a Mojave rattler? Never seen one so green.

The green hue on the rattler is a very keen observation on your part. Without seeing its head I can't state for sure if it's a Mohave or Diamondback. As I understand it, tiny scales between the eyes mean it's a Diamondback and larger, less numbers, are attributive to Mohaves. Of critical importance is that the venom of the Mohave attacks both the central nervous AND blood systems.

For 7-8 buttons, the above rattler's combined shorter length than that of a Diamondback plus its green tint could be that of a Mohave, we have both in this part of Arizona.

Despite what college professors state, Mohaves have a well deserved reputation for being aggressive, like a Diamondback with an attitude problem.

I believe it's North Carolina that leads the nation in venomous snake bites, mostly from Copperheads. All varieties of rattlers in Arizona require immediate ER treatment if one is bitten. Although uncommon, we've had a couple of fatalities from rattler bites, one was a hiker from Germany who continued his hike out of mountains before going to the ER, the other was a stateside lady who didn't survive, even with treatment.

Having been bit by a Mohave from behind, it took a good two years to recover fully from the bite, and most of its venom was injected into my folded sock just over the top of a hiking boot.

Getting back on track, I have another pic that I'll need to upload, of a Diamondback that was shot in the heart area with a 38 Super, XTP IIRC, that didn't expand, but it stopped the DB immediately.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I had to ask because a hemotoxic rattlesnake that is also neurotoxic is pretty scary.

 

[481]

I doubt the 230gr HS would have performed the same as the above 44 Special did on hogs, but it should be easy enough to calculate its penetration and that of Buffalo Bore's 255gr WFN in 45 auto.

Sounds like a challenge to me.

 

[2zulu1]

I had to ask because a hemotoxic rattlesnake that is also neurotoxic is pretty scary.

It's also scary to me and a lot of others too, plus the fact that Mohaves are so darned aggressive. A friend and I were in the high desert looking for survey markers when he came across a coiled Mohave, jumping backwards and backpedaling as fast as he could, the Mohave chased him until until the last shot from his pistol scored a head shot.

About two hours later we went back to where the Mohave was and sliced it open in preparation to cook it, to our surprise, its heart was still beating w/o its head.

 

[2zulu1]

9mm 147gr Gold Dot handloaded 1155fps

After doing a number of tests against a number of different types of intermediate barriers, this test epitomizes what the 9mm is capable of. The MV of this 147gr GD is slightly faster Double Tap's advertised MV.

This test was well outside the box and simulates the type of cover one may use at the work place or home. - redwood 4"x4" (door frame), washing machine lid (steel desk skirting), cow bone rib and water to capture the bullet should it penetrate these three barriers.



Bullet hole through the washing machine lid and cow rib, all three barriers penetrated,



Neck area of second Dew bottle blown off;



Entrance hole of the cow rib measured ~0.5" and exit was ~1.0";



Gold Dot expanded with petals folding inward, I often refer to this as 'riveting', GD retained bullet integrity;



What I learned from this experiment is there are less protective places than I had previously thought, one being a door frame with its double 2"x4" construction.

Interestingly enough, the 147gr GD at this velocity tends to expand more through four layers of denim and penetrate less than Speer's sub sonic ammunition.

 

[newbuckeye]

Wow...thru a 4x4 and all that! Did you get a pic of the 4x4 also?

 

[2zulu1]

^^^^^^ I've looked and haven't come across it thus far.

 

[btg3]

Should any consideration be given to dead, dry, brittle, bone versus live bone? Or do we assume neglible difference?

 

[Ak.Hiker]

Dried bones are very hard on a bullet. I have seen FMJ's deform a bit on dried moose bones. I tested some 38 Special +P hardcast and FBI loads on a dried moose skull with wood as a backstop. The 158 grain lead HP had no problem punching through the skull but the bullet did deform quite a bit. I also tested a 158 grain 38 Special +P Keith load loaded by Double Tap. The hardcast went through the skull and most of the wood. I also tested a 200 grain DT 357 magnum hardcast. This one went through the shull, all of the wood as well as the backstop.

 

[2zulu1]

Should any consideration be given to dead, dry, brittle, bone versus live bone? Or do we assume neglible difference?

Page 2 begins excellent dialogue regarding bone GSW (gunshot wounds) from a medical viewpoint, plus there's excellent tests on moose bones and other barriers performed by AK Hiker.

Post #24 shows the performance difference between 10mm 200gr WFNGC and 200gr XTP through 4" of tough cow leg bone. Only a few fragments of the XTP bullet were found.

 

[Ak.Hiker]

the wood is probably what deformed the lhp. Either way I was pretty impressed with the old LSWHP +P load. It punched right through the skull with no problems. I wish I did have a soft backstop. Plus I only had one as it got mixed in with the hardcast 38 Special loads.

 

[2zulu1]

Simply wicked

Autumn is a great time of year to live in Arizona, clear blue skies with temps in the low to mid 80s during the day, making it great for outdoor activities. It's also a time of year when we see increased mountain lion activity in the high desert valleys. From several years ago is this October lion print over my size 11 boot.




I'd finished grading some roads out back on the property and went on a walk, the next lion track was four feet away from the one in the pic. In less than an hour later this lion with a 5.5" print managed to travel down the same road as me w/o me seeing it. Since there's a lot of dense mesquite on that part of the property, I'll never know how close the two of us were..... and this wasn't the only time this has happened out back.

I've only experienced fleeting glimpses of lions and have heard them a number of times. My main goal is to see one of them long enough to snap a picture, but this goal has alluded my efforts thus far.

I realize lion attacks on humans are extremely rare, but I also realize that predator attacks on dogs is more common, whether from lions or javelina/coyotes, even raccoons.

While other platforms/calibers have been carried in anticipation of a rare lion encounter, seeing very large hog tracks have changed my carry options. One platform that's seen a lot of hip time has been the M29 Mountain, a comfortable carry that weighs approximately the same as a 1911 or loaded G20.

I've been experimenting with 200gr XTPs and N105 powder and I like what I've witnessed thus far. The 44/200gr sectional density is about the same as the 357/140gr, while the 44/210gr sectional density matches up with the 10mm/180gr. The 357mag/140gr JHPs traveling in the low 1500s have tested very well being very destructive. My goal with the 200gr XTP loaded with N105 powder was to attain the 1500fps level while reducing muzzle blast/flash and reduce felt recoil compared to other 44mag offerings.

That goal has been attained and it matches up with Hornady ammunition 1500fps/200gr XTP as measured from a 7.5" barrel. Well under max load the 4" Mountain has a 1471fps MV (ES 12fps, SD 04fps) while a M629/6.5" has a 1606fps MV (ES 25fps, SD 09fps).

Test gun was the M29 Mountain with a ~0.4" cow rib and water to capture the bullet.

The first two one gallon bottles simply exploded drenching me with water and hundreds of pulverized bone specs;



As we've witnessed in a number of other cow rib tests, the bullet simply leaves a large hole in the bone. I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was;



Several of those bone splinters were behind me and about 7 yards from the bottle. Bullet exited #3 bottle and was not recovered. That was my last cow rib, future bullet tests will be against larger and thicker cow bones.

FWIW, I now have a copy of the "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" book by Charles Schwartz and future penetration data will be posted using the Schwartz model rather than MacPherson's formulas. I don't have a scientific calculator yet, but forum member 481 has the new book, a good scientific calculator and he's agreed to do future calculations. His input on this thread has been top notch and greatly appreciated.

 

[Odd Job]

Nice tests.
If you gents can shoot a dry long bone (a cylindrical bone, shot in the mid-shaft area) that has been wrapped in several layers of cling film I would be interested in seeing the fracture pattern. I am looking to see if you get the same wedge fracture we see in live patients.

 

[2zulu1]

Nice tests.
If you gents can shoot a dry long bone (a cylindrical bone, shot in the mid-shaft area) that has been wrapped in several layers of cling film I would be interested in seeing the fracture pattern. I am looking to see if you get the same wedge fracture we see in live patients.

I have an intact leg bone.

A 125gr XTP caused this after penetrating a 14 ply semi truck tire, MV was in the upper 1400s from a 38 Super.



What do you suggest as a wrap to keep the fragmented bone from scattering?

 

[Cycletroll]

how about pantyhose?

 

[2zulu1]

how about pantyhose?

Good idea, do you have Joe Namath's phone number?

 

[481]

Good idea, do you have Joe Namath's phone number?

OH!

 

[481]

FWIW, I now have a copy of the "Quantitative Ammunition Selection" book by Charles Schwartz and future penetration data will be posted using the Schwartz model rather than MacPherson's formulas. I don't have a scientific calculator yet, but forum member 481 has the new book, a good scientific calculator and he's agreed to do future calculations. His input on this thread has been top notch and greatly appreciated.

Yep, the book is right here next to my computer and my calculator is very hungry. It wants numbers.

Thanks, 2z1, without your work I'd have nothing to do.

Thanks for keeping me busy!

 

[Odd Job]

I suggest cling film (clear sandwich wrap), and it needs to be documented exactly what surface was the impact point. I recommend making a dot on the bone with a permanent marker before wrapping it up.
I'll post a picture of what I am looking for in terms of fracture fragments, later.

 

[2zulu1]

Understand, but I'm not sure if the sandwich wrap is strong enough to hold the bone fragments in place, if I understand you correctly.

This frame capture is from a test I conducted some years ago, a Remington 240gr JSP impacting a thick wall cinder block.



In the above pic, the bullet hasn't impacted the berm, if it had there would be a considerable amount of clay/dirt dust in the air. Cinder block dust is traveling in three primary directions as the two liter bottle is being impacted. The two liter bottle was destroyed and there were hundreds of tiny pieces of plastic about 1mm in size strewn about on the ground, also, there was 2"x2" chunk of cinder block that was ejected at least 15 feet into the air, landing some 15 feet to the rear.

In bone tests I've observed similar phenomena as pictured above. In one test, a number of bone fragments/splinters were rapidly swirling in a one gallon bottle of water. I wasn't able to determine if the bone fragments had pierced the plastic or if the fragments were sucked in behind the bullet; however, there were also bone fragments in #2 bottle. Either way, the bone fragments in #2 bottle went through three layers of plastic and over 5.5" of water.

I have some heavy duty packing wrap that may or may not contain the leg bone fragments, it's a translucent green color.

 

[Odd Job]

My guess is the wrap (the cling film) will hold, three layers should be enough. Will be interesting to see...

 

[481]

2z1,

Why not just go with 5 layers of Saran, y'know, just to be safe. You could also place the bone in an open cardboard box with the open side facing the incoming round just in case some of the fragments/shards escape the wrap.

 

[2zulu1]

44mag 200gr XTP 1471fps 4LD

Here's the baseline test of the 200gr XTP in preparation for the leg bone test as suggested by Odd Job, I thank him in advance for bringing his medical expertise to this thread. Since I knew that I would get drenched by water, I let the bottles sit in the sun for a little while - good idea.

Nothing out of the ordinary, bullet came to rest in #4 bottle, a 5.4 grain lead fragment was located toward the rear of #3 bottle.



MV 1471fps
Recovered weight 181.2 grains - 90.6%
Expansion 0.720" - 1.68xcal

Good expansion ratio for the XTP while retaining 90+% of its original weight. It will interesting to see the penetration depth and crush cavity size for this load.

M29 Mountain 4".

 

[2zulu1]

2z1,

Why not just go with 5 layers of Saran, y'know, just to be safe. You could also place the bone in an open cardboard box with the open side facing the incoming round just in case some of the fragments/shards escape the wrap.

Good idea.

 

[481]

Here's the baseline test of the 200gr XTP in preparation for the leg bone test as suggested by Odd Job, I thank him in advance for bringing his medical expertise to this thread. Since I knew that I would get drenched by water, I let the bottles sit in the sun for a little while - good idea.

Nothing out of the ordinary, bullet came to rest in #4 bottle, a 5.4 grain lead fragment was located toward the rear of #3 bottle.



MV 1471fps
Recovered weight 181.2 grains - 90.6%
Expansion 0.720" - 1.68xcal

Good expansion ratio for the XTP while retaining 90+% of its original weight. It will interesting to see the penetration depth and crush cavity size for this load.

M29 Mountain 4".

2z1,

Nice test. Thanks.

The XTP comes through again and my calculator is happy to be fed once more.



Here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test:

Hornady .44 Magnum 200 gr. XTP v. four layers of denim (4" S&W M29)

Recovered Projectile Data:

Average Recovered Diameter: 0.720 inch (1.68x caliber)
Retained Mass: 181.2 grains
Impact Velocity: 1471 feet per second

Predicted Terminal Performance:

Penetration Depth (S) = 33.221 cm (13.079 inches)
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 74.332 grams (2.622 ounces)



Wish it was warm enough here to do tests like this.