Nightcrawler
Member
Many here wonder why militaries don't use JHP ammo. One answer is, of course, the Hague Accords, which forbids expanding ammo. Aside from that, though, in a combat context you WANT penetration. It's the reason that the military switched to SS109 5.56mm round (which doesn't fragment at any velocity) from the supposed death ray that the fragmenting 55 grain stuff was (according to some). A round that fragments in "soft media" will also fragment in trees, armor, and light cover; not good, as bad guys tend to hide behind things.
The same holds true for pistol and SMG rounds in a combat setting. You want to be able to nail the guy hiding behind the door, or the wall, or the tree. (Suddently those 5.56mm 40 grain hollowpoints that won't penetrate two layers of drywall, apparently, don't seem so good.) You want to be able to punch through as much stuff as possible. On the battlefield, armor piercing ammunition is almost always preferable to ball, as you're not really giving anything up and are gaining quite a bit (especially in terms of use against helicopters and thin-skinned vehicles, though I've heard that 7.62x51mm AP will cut through an M113's 4" of aluminum armor at close range, but I'm not sure).
Now, this doesn't apply so much to pistols, but pistols and SMGs are still seen on the battlefield. Armor is now more common than ever, though no pistol round (including FN's 5.7mm) is going to penetrate armor with steel or ceramic rifle plates. However, by "armor", many times in a military context you're talking about a simple flak jacket and/or helmet. The current US Kevlar helmet is rated only NIJ Level II; rifle rounds will sail right through it. As are the old NATO flak jakets, though the US forces in Iraq are now wearing what is apparently called the Interceptor vest, which indeed seems to have ceramic rifle plates fore and aft (a very good idea).
So, basically, you'd want to be able to punch through a flak jacket and, if possible, a kevlar helmet with your pistol and/or SMG.
When I was at Camp Grayling, I bought a book by T.J. Mullin entitled Special Operations Weapons and Tactics. A very interesting read, and the author seems to know his stuff (in addition to being blatantly pro-gun).
He professes an obvious preferance for the 9x19mm round in a military context, though he asserts repeatedly that he likes both the .45 round and 1911 pistols. However, he definately feels that .45ACP has little use on the battlefield. Observe this quote:
"Many military teams in the US seem to utilize modified M1911A1 .45ACP pistols. I believe this is because of the impact of Col. Jeff Cooper and his followers on such special units. Many of the people who are members of these units have been trained at places where Col. Cooper's influence is quite strong or ins ome cases they have even trained at Gunsite in Arizona, the Colonel's training center. His training program and the course of fire they shoot rewards emphasis on the single action .45 caliber pistol. As a consequence, some military Special Operations people have apparently gotten a mission confused with a match. The special expeditionary recon Marine unit, for example, has modified M1911A1 pistols to get a weapon that really would make a very nice ISPC match gun but is not really suitable for a military Special Operations team."
Then later:
"As with typical infantry units, the pistol in a Special Operations unit should only be used in the event the main weapon goes down. Accordingly it should be small and light-weight so you do not lose rifle ammunition or grenades to a seldom-used pistol. In the military context, it also must use ammunition acceptable to The Hague Convention and should be capable of penetrating ballistic vests that are more and more commonly encountered in the military field or pouches full of steel magazines filled with steel-cased ammunition. Standard .45ACP ammunition simply will not cut it when confronted with such tasks. Handguns that weigh 39 ounces (empty and are so big that they must be carried on the belt taking up space better filled by a spare magazine pouch holding 90 extra rifle rounds, a grenade, or pissible (and even more useful) a canteen of water) seem excessive to me- and I like .45 Government Model pistols. The Special Operations military handgun should be light, small and a vest penetrator. This in addition to the other typical requirements of dependability, safety and ease of shooting. Good examples of such weapons are the S&W M940 and 9M both of which will accept 9mm AP loads and yet can be carrie din the top pocket of a fatigue shirt easily. One would suppose other weapons might prove useful if proper ammunition was obtained like a PM (Makarov) with AP ammo, various .38 small-size revolvers or autoloader chambered for the newly developed FN Five-seveN x 28mm cartridge if made into a small, handy piece. The current FN Five-seveN pistol is light enough but is as big as an M1911A1 pistol so you gain some weight saving by using it but nothing else."
"Of course, there may be times when military Special Operations teams will use a handgun as their primary tool. An example might be some type of raid or snatch group where one or more people may find it difficult to use anything other than a handgun. When this occurs, then a more traditional sized handgun is called for, like the FN Five-seveN which gives high capacity AP penetrating capability and good stopping power. Even in those situations, the current response seen, especially in the US, of adoptin M1911A1 .45ACP -type pistols is wrong as it lacks the ability to penetrate ballistic vests or the variety of field gear confronted today."
Obviously, the author likes the 5.7mm round. However, he admits later that it might not be all that and a bag of chips.
"The new FN P90 which uses the unique 5.7x28mm cartridge is like an SMG in many ways and may offer new potential in that area. It is so new that few are out there. A few teams had them but more as an experiment than anything else. A friend related an experience with one on a recent raid that was quite disappointing, I am sorry to say. Too many shots, too many good hits and too few deaths for good taste. Time will tell."
Anyways, if after all that you're still reading, I ask you, what do you think? Agree/disagree? Are SpecOps teams misguided in their choice of the 1911 style pistol (I believe that Delta and others prefer the 1911, whereas the Navy SEALs seem to like the Sig P226 nowadays). Is the .45ACP FMJ round really so poor a penetrator that it won't go through a chest harness with magazines? If so, will 9x19mm?
What of this 9mm "Armor Piercing" ammunition? I wasn't aware that you could MAKE armor piercing ammo for conventional pistol rounds. I though it might be possible, but would still be only of limited effectiveness. In any case I imaged a .357 Magnum with a steel cored, very pointy bullet (the revolver, of course, not requiring a rounded nose for surest feeding).
The same holds true for pistol and SMG rounds in a combat setting. You want to be able to nail the guy hiding behind the door, or the wall, or the tree. (Suddently those 5.56mm 40 grain hollowpoints that won't penetrate two layers of drywall, apparently, don't seem so good.) You want to be able to punch through as much stuff as possible. On the battlefield, armor piercing ammunition is almost always preferable to ball, as you're not really giving anything up and are gaining quite a bit (especially in terms of use against helicopters and thin-skinned vehicles, though I've heard that 7.62x51mm AP will cut through an M113's 4" of aluminum armor at close range, but I'm not sure).
Now, this doesn't apply so much to pistols, but pistols and SMGs are still seen on the battlefield. Armor is now more common than ever, though no pistol round (including FN's 5.7mm) is going to penetrate armor with steel or ceramic rifle plates. However, by "armor", many times in a military context you're talking about a simple flak jacket and/or helmet. The current US Kevlar helmet is rated only NIJ Level II; rifle rounds will sail right through it. As are the old NATO flak jakets, though the US forces in Iraq are now wearing what is apparently called the Interceptor vest, which indeed seems to have ceramic rifle plates fore and aft (a very good idea).
So, basically, you'd want to be able to punch through a flak jacket and, if possible, a kevlar helmet with your pistol and/or SMG.
When I was at Camp Grayling, I bought a book by T.J. Mullin entitled Special Operations Weapons and Tactics. A very interesting read, and the author seems to know his stuff (in addition to being blatantly pro-gun).
He professes an obvious preferance for the 9x19mm round in a military context, though he asserts repeatedly that he likes both the .45 round and 1911 pistols. However, he definately feels that .45ACP has little use on the battlefield. Observe this quote:
"Many military teams in the US seem to utilize modified M1911A1 .45ACP pistols. I believe this is because of the impact of Col. Jeff Cooper and his followers on such special units. Many of the people who are members of these units have been trained at places where Col. Cooper's influence is quite strong or ins ome cases they have even trained at Gunsite in Arizona, the Colonel's training center. His training program and the course of fire they shoot rewards emphasis on the single action .45 caliber pistol. As a consequence, some military Special Operations people have apparently gotten a mission confused with a match. The special expeditionary recon Marine unit, for example, has modified M1911A1 pistols to get a weapon that really would make a very nice ISPC match gun but is not really suitable for a military Special Operations team."
Then later:
"As with typical infantry units, the pistol in a Special Operations unit should only be used in the event the main weapon goes down. Accordingly it should be small and light-weight so you do not lose rifle ammunition or grenades to a seldom-used pistol. In the military context, it also must use ammunition acceptable to The Hague Convention and should be capable of penetrating ballistic vests that are more and more commonly encountered in the military field or pouches full of steel magazines filled with steel-cased ammunition. Standard .45ACP ammunition simply will not cut it when confronted with such tasks. Handguns that weigh 39 ounces (empty and are so big that they must be carried on the belt taking up space better filled by a spare magazine pouch holding 90 extra rifle rounds, a grenade, or pissible (and even more useful) a canteen of water) seem excessive to me- and I like .45 Government Model pistols. The Special Operations military handgun should be light, small and a vest penetrator. This in addition to the other typical requirements of dependability, safety and ease of shooting. Good examples of such weapons are the S&W M940 and 9M both of which will accept 9mm AP loads and yet can be carrie din the top pocket of a fatigue shirt easily. One would suppose other weapons might prove useful if proper ammunition was obtained like a PM (Makarov) with AP ammo, various .38 small-size revolvers or autoloader chambered for the newly developed FN Five-seveN x 28mm cartridge if made into a small, handy piece. The current FN Five-seveN pistol is light enough but is as big as an M1911A1 pistol so you gain some weight saving by using it but nothing else."
"Of course, there may be times when military Special Operations teams will use a handgun as their primary tool. An example might be some type of raid or snatch group where one or more people may find it difficult to use anything other than a handgun. When this occurs, then a more traditional sized handgun is called for, like the FN Five-seveN which gives high capacity AP penetrating capability and good stopping power. Even in those situations, the current response seen, especially in the US, of adoptin M1911A1 .45ACP -type pistols is wrong as it lacks the ability to penetrate ballistic vests or the variety of field gear confronted today."
Obviously, the author likes the 5.7mm round. However, he admits later that it might not be all that and a bag of chips.
"The new FN P90 which uses the unique 5.7x28mm cartridge is like an SMG in many ways and may offer new potential in that area. It is so new that few are out there. A few teams had them but more as an experiment than anything else. A friend related an experience with one on a recent raid that was quite disappointing, I am sorry to say. Too many shots, too many good hits and too few deaths for good taste. Time will tell."
Anyways, if after all that you're still reading, I ask you, what do you think? Agree/disagree? Are SpecOps teams misguided in their choice of the 1911 style pistol (I believe that Delta and others prefer the 1911, whereas the Navy SEALs seem to like the Sig P226 nowadays). Is the .45ACP FMJ round really so poor a penetrator that it won't go through a chest harness with magazines? If so, will 9x19mm?
What of this 9mm "Armor Piercing" ammunition? I wasn't aware that you could MAKE armor piercing ammo for conventional pistol rounds. I though it might be possible, but would still be only of limited effectiveness. In any case I imaged a .357 Magnum with a steel cored, very pointy bullet (the revolver, of course, not requiring a rounded nose for surest feeding).