Pistols vs. Animal Attacks

[ArmedBear]

Opinion, thoughts, information?

If I would be carrying primarily in case of an animal attack (on us or on our dogs, or both), would a .45 ACP be worth carrying, or is a revolver by far the best option?

I am kind of a revolver guy, but something like an XD in .45 would be a good all-around defensive handgun, and more convenient and less obtrusive for wilderness carry than my SAA clone in .357, and a whole lot more so than my 6 1/2" Blackhawk or 10 1/2" Super Blackhawk.

Potential threats range from rattlesnakes to grizzlies. I don't expect a .45 ACP to be the best against a grizz, but in between we have black bears, coyotes, wolves, cougars, just about every large carnivore in North America, aside from the crocodilian types.

2 cents?

 

[mr2guru]

10mm

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think .45 ACP has poor penetration, so while pretty good for self-defense against humans, it's not so good against animals.

10mm would probably be good in an autolaoder, or maybe .460 Rowland

 

[jbech123]

A compact 357 (like a smith 360)would be the least obtrusive yet give you the stopping power for everything but the griz. For that, a 454 would be the minimum, and even that is extremely dicey at best.

 

[ArmedBear]

A compact 357 (like a smith 360)

Ouch, but yeah...

WRT 10mm autoloaders, it seems there's not all that much out there in 10mm these days, compared to the big 3 calibers plus .357 SIG.

What guns come in 10mm, that carry better than a .357 revolver?

 

[Kleanbore]

Last year I watched an episode of Personal Defense TV that was devoted to defense against dangerous animals.

For use against black bear, they recommended a Marlin Guide Gun or a twelve gauge shotgun loaded with slugs, backed up by a .44 Magnum revolver.

For grizzly bear, Craig Boddington says that a .30-'06 will take out a smaller bear, but that a .375 H&H or .416 would be better against the big ones.

None of those would be "less obtrusive" than a Colt SAA clone.

The muzzle energy of an '06 is about two and a half times that of a .44 Magnum. The .375 ups the '06 by another forty percent.

Search on this or other forums (fora) for using handguns on grizzly. Not recommended at all.

 

[steveno]

which type of gun and caliber do you shoot the best? that would be the one I would take. personaaly I wouldn't have any problem with a 45 acp in a revolver or semi-auto.

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, there's a difference between hunting and stopping, too.

People hunt black bear with much smaller guns than that list, with no trouble. Stopping a charging bear before it gets to you is a whole different ballgame.

Humans are some pretty wimpy creatures... I think it takes less to stop a 250-pound human attacker than an adrenaline-pumped 50-pound dog.

Thanks for the reality checks, Kleanbore. I've contemplated buying a serious, new defensive pistol and selling off a bunch of "cool old guns" that I never even look at.

Clearly, I should be looking at separate guns for wilderness and nightstand, though I suppose that a .45 slug would discourage an attacking wolf and certainly would get coyotes off my dogs.

Thank you.

 

[wccountryboy]

"WRT 10mm autoloaders, it seems there's not all that much out there in 10mm these days, compared to the big 3 calibers plus .357 SIG.

What guns come in 10mm, that carry better than a .357 revolver?"

Most of the big manufacturers of 1911s have a 10mm offering. Very easy to carry.

 

[-v-]

S&W Mod. 1006 in 10mm is a solid choice, a Glock 20 is another. I know there's a couple 1911-style pistols in 10mm auto as well.

 

[ArmedBear]

Hmmm...

I already have a holster for a 1911...

That might be a good choice. Much as I love revolvers, a 1911 is much more low-profile.

I don't own a Glock, despite my being a proud Austrian-American. I'm one of those people who finds them to naturally point somewhere off into space -- but their simplicity definitely appeals to me.

 

[dmazur]

You might consider this, which is a 1911 modification to provide "near .44 Mag" muzzle energy. What's more interesting, user reports say the muzzle brake is effective at controlling muzzle flip, so it handles very much like the unmodified .45 ACP -

.460 Rowland conversion kits

I almost went this route, and I still might, as I am very comfortable with the 1911. However, at this time I'm packing a Ruger SBH in .44Mag for backcountry 4-legged threats...

The concern about "wearing out" the 1911 frame is somewhat valid, but if you only shoot it a few times a year for practice it shouldn't be too bad. It only takes a few minutes to do the conversion, and you can use it as a regular .45ACP the rest of the time.

The brake adds about an inch to the overall length, and (IMO) you have two options for holsters: 1) Get the conversion kit for a 1911 Commander and get a holster for a Government (5" barrel), or 2) Get the conversion kit for whichever 1911 barrel length you prefer and then get an open bottom holster that allows the brake to protrude.

 

[JWJacobVT]

Same gun and caliber I carry daily

S&W 1066 with 180 grain JHP
I only fear griz and if I am headed into that area I grab my 870.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the 10mm comes into it's own was an outdoor packing cartridge. it's compact, powerful and efficient out of smaller guns than a wheelgun.

the smallest thing for this use would be a .357mag, but i'd have it loaded with 180gr slugs and i'd want something larger than a M-60 to shoot it out of because i'd want to be able to put repeat shots on target.

with a handgun, a 250lb man is easier to put down than a 50 dog. i've seen smaller dogs seem to shug off rounds that have proven effective against gobblins

 

[mokin]

I carry a Glock 29 loaded with 175 grain Winchester Silvertips. It is not the most powerful load available, but after a little experiementation involving 1500-1800 rounds of various velocites and bullet weights I found with the shorter barrel those seemed to shoot the best. It was a lot of fun but very expensive....

The pistol really isn't that compact for being a "compact" pistol, it is almost the same size as my Browning Hi-Power but has plenty of power and holds 10 rounds. With a "full size" pistol you could probably get a lot more out of the 10 mm Auto.

 

[mpmarty]

Witness all steel full size. Packs like a cross between a 1911 and a Sig 220. Holds sixteen rounds of that fine 10mm ammo.

 

[gglass]

Shooting larger game with Self-Defense ammo is a BIG no no. For any medium to large game take-down a jacketed soft point has always had the best penetration and expansion.

Just because a premium SD ammo like Silver Tips, SXT's or HST's work will on MUSHY humans, you can't expect the same performance on animals with 2x to 4x the muscle mass.

Anyone want to argue the point? Feel free to take whatever you like into the wild. We all want to make sure that there is enough good footage for "When Animals Attack" episodes.

 

[dobrzemetal]

As far as shooting animals I can only really comment on shooting a deer, no big grizzly or anything of that sort.



(Heres are two 9mm Federal Hydrashok 124gr. rounds shot from about 10-15 yards, the deer was about 130-140lbs. The first shot was a good expansion, but as you can see the second round left its jacket and did not expand well)

The first shot, I ended up hitting the deer in the upper right leg as it turned sharply to the left when It came into view and I had already committed to the shot, and did not really seem to do anything.The second shot was placed much better and seem to knock the wind out animal; however, it was still able to walk (barely) for around 5-10 seconds, so it did its job. Furthermore, the hydrashok is a 20+ year old hollowpoint design, if it had been one the more recent designs I would not have been suprised if it would of been completely incapacitated right away when shot in the vitals.

All this really boils down to is shot placement, I would feel fine carrying my 9mm anywhere in North America .

 

[DssG19]

I would feel fine carrying my 9mm anywhere in North America

I'm a huge fan of 9mm for the two legged dog(human type). As far as any large 200+ LB predator, i'd want at least a .44mag. As for a 9mm against a griz, well I guess it's better that nothing.

 

[the-ghost]

take it from someone who lives in mt lion and bear country, .357 or better. i always carry a few .38 spec loads and a few shotshell loads too in my gear incase i need food for the pot. griz country i'd do .44 mag. i wouldnt want to have to stand in front of a pissed off bear with a 9mm or even 10mm for that matter.

 

[kd7nqb]

Potential threats range from rattlesnakes to grizzlies. I don't expect a .45 ACP to be the best against a grizz, but in between we have black bears, coyotes, wolves, cougars, just about every large carnivore in North America, aside from the crocodilian types.

For me its about the likely hood of encountering each type of animal. I am all for being prepared but don't carry a .50bmg is there was only one grizzly spotted 30yrs ago.

For me I would say that if I were in your position I would use my M&P (your XD would be great too) again personally I would prefer .40 to .45 but still preference.

However if you have not purchased a gun yet for this purpose then you may want to look into 10mm. You still have the issue that most animals get down right MEAN when they charge, to say the least, so your hunting rounds may not work out as well. With that in mind my thought would be to put as many holes in the animal as possible. Of course if you want the perfect revolver for this application then you could always get the S&W 500 or the Taurus Judge .45/ .410 I think the issue you face is finding a gun that works well against both a bear and a rattlesnake.

Another great option which would add more bulk would be 2 guns one for small stuff (I am thinking a J-Frame with .38 shot shells) and one with a bigger force like a glock in 10mm or the XD in .45acp as you mentioned.

So here are my top 3 guns

Glock 10mm-



Taurus Judge-




S&W 500

 

[Killermonkey21]

The judge wouldn't be that bad, I'd imagine.

I spend a lot of time in the mountains of montana, where the occasional black bear sighting is not uncommon. I don't go walking in the woods with anything less than a .357 Magnum in a 6" bbl, and for longer walks in the woods I carry either my .308 cetme for expensive plinking at ground varmints and bear deterrent (many large holes or a 12 gauge. But all of the suggestions are valid.

For smaller (yote, wolf, big cat) animals I'd feel comfortable with a high cap 10mm or .40 and up. In most cases, if you see the bear before you do, you can avoid it. Yotes and cats would (hopefully) be deterred by the loud noise, but might be enticed to attack if you have your dog with you. I wouldn't want to have to reload after putting 6 rounds at/in the animal and it still walking, so I, personally, would shy away from a revolver, but to each their own.

-John

 

[twoclones]

TRR8

At work, I carry for defense against cougars and, before choosing a gun, had a lot of helpful advice from THR members... I bought the XD-40 SubCompact and carried it in the Bianchi X-15 shoulder holster. This was very comfortable even when carrying a heavy pack and climbing steep grades at high elevation. HOWEVER, I too am a 'revolver guy' and just didn't like shooting an auto.

I've now replaced the XD with a S&W Model 327 TRR8 which is an 8 shot .357 mag revolver w/ 5" barrel. With about 1,200 practice rounds fired and CT crips added, I could not be happier with this wheel gun for wilderness protection.

Oh... and I carry extra ammo in moon clips since the TRR8 is already cut for moon clips.

 

[ArmedBear]

Shooting larger game with Self-Defense ammo is a BIG no no. For any medium to large game take-down a jacketed soft point has always had the best penetration and expansion.

Just because a premium SD ammo like Silver Tips, SXT's or HST's work will on MUSHY humans, you can't expect the same performance on animals with 2x to 4x the muscle mass.

Absolutely true!

Rapid expansion is for high-velocity spitzer bullets, i.e. nothing that will come from a repeating pistol.

I'm also a believer in momentum, not energy. Nothing from a handgun is going to do the Roy Weatherby hydrostatic shock drop. So big, heavy bullets beat high-energy lighter ones IMO, since energy grossly overstates the effect of small differences in velocity.

Looks like I might need a smaller .44 Magnum to go with my 10 1/2" Super Blackhawk. That thing draws a bit slowly...

.454 is more powerful medicine, but I'm not sure about followup shots with it.

 

[Oro]

ArmedBear,

I went through this same decision making process a few years ago - routinely seeing black bears, and we do have Grizzlies in some nearby areas we visit at length a few times a year. We face the same predator range as you. I loved .45's and thought about the .460 Rowland route, 10mm, etc., etc. I even bought a Clark comp'd barrel to give it a try, but the added weight and barrel length made it less than fun or easy to carry.

I went with a 3" .44magnum which is very easy to carry (much easier than a full size 1911) and packs a wallop. I agree with your analysis that follow-on shots are critical, and a .44magnum is about as stout as I can go for repeated, accurate, quick follow-up shots.

In lowland areas without bears - e.g., no "large" predators, I am content with a .45acp or .357magnum.