Pistols vs. Animal Attacks

[MCMXI]

ArmedBear, have you read John Linebaugh's articles here? After reading his excellent articles on hand gun hunting and the like and his thoughts on cast bullets and their performance in big, dangerous game, I ordered and received a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt (DA variety). I've been shooting 250gr and 300gr Oregon Trail Laser-Cast bullets at about 1300fps (18.0 to 24.0 grains of H110 powder**) with good accuracy, no leading and very manageable recoil. The .45 Colt RH would be my choice for carrying in the woods along with a Marlin 1894 in the same caliber with 10 rounds in the magazine ... a very formidable pair!!



** WARNING: These loads are not intended for Colt SAA or their clones. These loads are only safe in Ruger Redhawk, Ruger Blackhawk and Thompson/Contender.

 

[357wheelgunner]

I wouldn't trust most of the autopistols that people carry for defense against badguys, against animals. Animals, when shot, don't always know they're dead until they actually are. Animals aren't known to sit down and die quietly when the object of their attention is you and you are still standing in front of them.

When out in the woods where there is a possibility of a mtn. lion or black bear, I take the .38+P LHP out of my K frames and load them up with .357 magnum 158gr Speer Golddot.

I like 10mm, just not the guns it comes in. I don't trust the 1911, which was designed for low pressure .45ACP, not to blow up or wear prematurely. I don't like the plastic 2x4 feel of the Glock 10mm either. If Sig ever makes a P220 in 10mm I'll buy it in a heartbeat, but I believe they haven't yet because of the same issue with 1911s (designed around a low pressure .45).

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Wouldn't a revolver be better for this, since if a revolver is fired at contact distance (i.e., animal on top of you, trying to reach your neck), while a semi-auto would jam?

 

[ArmedBear]

Hey 1858-

What about just using FMJ in a .45?

I've seen what heavy RNL bullets do to a large animal. They don't expand; they don't need to.

 

[Mello]

With the assumption that any handgun is a compromise between power delivered to target and weight of carry, I have a 454 Casull with a 6 inch barrel. I subscribe to the premise that any handgun is a defensive compromise. A handgun has to be small enough and light enough that you will carry it with you. Then you will have it when you need it. So choose the most powerful cartridge that you can competently handle with your level of skill.

I find that it is more pleasant and easier to shoot a 350gr bullet at 1600fps from the Casull, than a 7 1/2 inch Super Blackhawk shooting a 240gr bullet at 1400fps. The Casull is slighly smaller and lighter than the Super Blackhawk.

I submit that if you have serious concerns about grizzly bears; which can weigh over 600 pounds, you do not want to have to engage one with insufficient stopping power. You can not expect to stop a grizzly with explosive power from a handgun. You have to rely on crush damage and loss of blood pressure and/or nerve damage. Even breaking a leg on a griz will not reliably stop it. So, unless you make a brain or high spinal shot it will take time for the grizzly to lose blood pressure and become incapacitated. Even two seconds is a long time if the bear wants to hurt you. The bear can move 20 yards in two seconds!

Double Tap Ammunition offers a 360gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast bullet at around 1500fps - 1800 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl. for about $27 per 20 rounds. This bullet should penetrate to vital areas on a grizzly. If you place the bullet/bullets well you may survive a close encounter. I would agree with those others' opinion that hollow point bullets designed to expand on human targets would be a bad choice for bears. You would most likely get shallow penetration and no vital areas would be destroyed. The bear could eventually die but that could take days. In the event of an attack you only have seconds.

So get the most stopping power you can competently use and practice before you go.

 

[MCMXI]

What about just using FMJ in a .45?

I've seen what heavy RNL bullets do to a large animal. They don't expand; they don't need to.

From what I've read, hard cast bullets stay together in big game and are a lot more effective than jacketed bullets. The jacketed type supposedly come apart. There are numerous hard cast bullets available with/without gas checks that work well.

If I were heading off into the woods where I had a good chance of encountering a grizzly, I'd be carrying my Guide Gun in .45-70 with 430 grain FPGC TrueShot bullets from Oregon Trail. With four in the magazine and one in the chamber, with a .45 Colt Redhawk for backup, I'd feel reasonably confident. This is all armchair theory though, since I've never encountered a bear in my life, much less shot one.

 

[dmazur]

The reason I decided on a Ruger SBH in .44Mag instead of going with the .460 Rowland 1911 conversion was

1. Single action revolvers are a simple, reliable design
2. No concern about reloading disadvantages of SA as there won't be time for more than 1 or 2
3. With the transfer bar types, no concern about empty cylinder under hammer
4. JSP loads common for .44Mag, heavier LBT-LFN loads available (Buffalo Bore)

And, I'll readily admit, this is not an ideal solution. IMO, there is no ideal solution to this problem...

 

[ArmedBear]

If I were heading off into the woods where I had a good chance of encountering a grizzly, I'd be carrying my Guide Gun in .45-70 with 430 grain FPGC TrueShot bullets from Oregon Trail. With four in the magazine and one in the chamber, with a .45 Colt Redhawk for backup

Again, agreed. ...which is why, for those who keep bringing up grizzly defense, I wrote initially that I didn't, in general, expect a handgun to stop a grizzly -- I just wrote that we have most of the big predators around here.

dmazur- What size SBH do you have? I tend to agree with what you wrote, also, but my SBH is a beast. I bought it for hunting deer, not quick-drawing on bears.

 

[S&Wfan]

Popcorn anyone?

T.

 

[tango2echo]

I have a close friend who is a L.E.O.. He recently had to shoot a 50lb pit bull FIVE times at less than 5 yds to stop an attact. His issued sidearm is a .40 w/hollowpoints. The first 3 rds were in the chest, the forth in the head, and the fifth just to pay the insurance. Personally, I'd want a bigger gun.

T2E

 

[Hostile Amish]

@ KD7NQB:

That S&W 500 looks scary to shoot.

 

[glockman19]

Depending on where I am I'll carry a 4" 686+ with 158 grain, or a 5" 629 with 240 grain.

 

[dmazur]

ArmedBear -

It's a 4-5/8" barrel length.

I have no intention of messing with bears with a handgun. I have a large "bear deterrent" spray, and I know the protocols for trying to keep bears away from camp.

Washington State has mostly black bears, and they can be dangerous, though undoubtedly easier to stop than a grizzly.

I was just trying to relate that, rather than rely on my comfortable 1911, I am venturing into the somewhat unfamiliar with a single action. Stopping power vs. multiple rounds, I guess.

I've practiced quite a bit, and I think I'm fairly good. Not Cowboy Action Shooter level, but not "new out of the box" either. Even though it's a short barrel, the recoil isn't bad with 240-300gr loads. With smooth grips, as you know, the revolver rotates a little in your grip. I've learned it's better not to fight this rotation. ( )

 

[ArmedBear]

I know the protocols for trying to keep bears away from camp.

The local Fish and Game office has a museum and outdoor nature center attached to it (pretty cool -- they have all sorts of local fish and wildlife mounts, some records, live fish ponds and streams, a display where you can make tracks in sand and see what they look like, etc.).

Anyway, there's a picture on the wall of a bear hanging upside down, going hand-over-hand (paw over paw?) across a long horizontal rope that some campers had apparently used to hang a bear box way out and high above the ground, between two trees. Seems the bears know the protocols, too.

 

[ArmedBear]

tango2echo-

Yeah, that illustrates something important. Animals don't think like people. A firearm is a powerful psychological deterrent to a human attacker. Actually being shot is even more so.

A human, shot once by a cop, might drop his weapon, give up and beg not to be shot again. Animals don't think, "Oh crap! I'm hit!"

An animal (even a Yorkshire Terrier) is more like a human on Angel Dust -- they don't go down unless they're actually physically incapable of staying up.

That's probably why bear spray works. It actually disables the bear, by sabotaging his senses.

OTOH my pit bull is horribly gun-shy. Fireworks across town, and she ends up shaking and cowering in the bathtub. No ****. My Vizsla runs around the house in circles and looks at me like, "Someone is shooting birds! Fun! Let's go! Come on! Hunting! Yay!"

So, a gunshot in the air may be a powerful deterrent for certain individual animals. The only thing you have to fear from my pit bull, though, is being whipped too hard by her tail while she tries to kiss you to death.

 

[KBintheSLC]

10mm

Ditto x 1000

Glock 20 for my outings. I fill it with a mixture of 200g FMJ-FP and 200g Controlled Expansion JHP's from DoubleTap. 16 consecutive deliveries of over 700 ft/lbs of energy works for me. Its very easy to shoot too... my 5'2" 105 lbs wife wields it with authority at the range.

 

[AKGuy]

357 mag with 200 gr hard cast lead for black bear on down.

(minimum) 41 or 44 mag with the heaviest load you can handle (oughtta be at least 200gr fmj or hcL) for brown bear. I used to carry a 10mm when I was on medevac crew up here zipping all over the state (Alaska) but after doing some range testing with mud, phone books, etc, I switched over to 44 mag.

 

[dmazur]

Rangers in Yosemite stated they had a bear that knew how to untie knots, so I use a "bear-proof container", at least 100 yds away from camp.

This is a little heavy, but it holds food for a few days, stove & pots.

So far, a bear hasn't figured out how to open it*. It is a slightly tapered design, so trying to bite it just makes it squirt out of their mouths.

I keep food sealed up in a plastic bag, inside the container, so it doesn't have much of a smell.

Rodents can't get inside it, either.

(*You have to use a coin to twist the flush locks...while bears are getting smarter, I'm pretty sure they don't have pockets. No pockets, no change...)

 

[ArmedBear]

while bears are getting smarter, I'm pretty sure they don't have pockets.

LOL

Treehuggers will be handing out fanny packs to them soon enough, I'm sure.

That said, I would, but I really don't want to have to shoot a bear. They're really entertaining. Even grizzlies, provided they can't get to you.

 

[Slamfire]

Potential threats range from rattlesnakes to grizzlies.

I read a statistic, based on human encounters with Grizzlies. Seems the survival rate, after a Grizzly attack, was better for those who were unarmed, than those who had used a handgun.

Seems Grizzlies get really upset if you shoot them with a handgun.

Pepper spray apparently has a better track record.

There is lots of web information on how to deal with Grizzlies. They have behaviors, warnings, before they attack. Better think of the options before you pop one with a handgun.

 

[MCMXI]

I read a statistic, based on human encounters with Grizzlies. Seems the survival rate, after a Grizzly attack, was better for those who were unarmed, than those who had used a handgun.

Yeah ... I read that on the Brady Campaign's web site too ....

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

kinda ironic someone with armedbear as a handle is participating in this thread

 

[MT GUNNY]

IMHO If you go with a Semi Auto, Go with 10MM you will be glad you did when you run into a Grizzly.

If you go with a revolver, go no less than a .357.

I don't have a 10MM so I take my M&P .40. There was a situation here a couple months ago where a guy emptied his .45 in a Grizzly. The Grizz was never found just little blood spots every now and then.

 

[SwordRapier]

My Dad tells a story about a Grizzly. Seems that while he and his father were herding cattle on mountains of South Eastern Utah. They had a bear that would kill the Cattle eat a couple of the choice organs then leave. Seems this bear was killing for the Joy of Slaughter. They received permission from the fish and Game to take this “bad” bear out if they could come across it.

One day as they were coming up a rise their horses started to spook. My father and Grandfather got off the horses and took a 30.30 to the top of the rise where they say the bear wallowing in the blood of some cattle they he had just killed. My grandfather took a shot and hit the bear hard but not had enough to put it down. My grandfather and father were downwind from the bear so it could not find them so it took off crashing though the trees.

My father wanted to go off chasing the bear. My Grandfather refused. The headed back down the mountain and reported what they had done to the fish and game. The authorities sealed off the area for about a week. Then gathered a group of men to go into the woods to find this wounded bear. My father and Grandfather followed the bears trail into the woods. The bear’s trail hooked back on itself they found the bear standing on two legs leaning against a tree waiting in ambush for them. It had died in that position.

Just something to consider when choosing a weapon to deter a bear.

 

[9mmepiphany]

bears are extremely large and fast animals...i don't think my first choice would be to think i'd be able to stop it with a non-dedicated hunting handgun.

i'm thinking avoidance would be a first choice, followed by backing away and then running (learn the correct direction to run...downhill) and climbing a tree (unless it's a black bear)

YMMV, but i don't think i'd feel comfortable going up against a Grizzly with anything less than a .375 H&H Magnum