Please explain the "Scout Rifle"

[HKGuns]

Can someone please explain to me the recent popularity of the so called "Scout Rifles"?

When did it start? -I'm sure it isn't recently, although it appears to be the new name for an M-14 with a scope.

Did it start in a movie?

Did it start in Iraq / Afghanistan? -Vietnam?

Did it start with some Company Marketing department?

Why do I need or want one?

I'm not going to be able to see through that Scope mounted way up there anyway?

Is it something a bunch of "Scope Eye" victims started?

Why are they called "Scout Rifles"? Do boy Scouts use them frequently?

I don't think I like them, but would like to understand what the fascination is with them and it seems a very recent rifle fad.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Why do I need or want one?

Apparently you don't.

Wiki: scout rifle.

 

[HKGuns]

Thanks Horse, didn't know most of that.....You're right. I really don't need or want one!

 

[Art Eatman]

It began with an idea of Jeff Cooper's. A general purpose rifle for a scout, not for a fire fight. Short, handy, lightweight, with a medium-power but useful cartridge (.308). He suggested the forward mounting of a scope, since that has been proven to be fastest at target acquisition in competitions at Gunsite.

Various people have done their own variants of Jeff's non-copyrighted "Scout" concept. Some are close to his concept; others are not, regardless of label.

In the FWIW department, Jeff's idea of hunting was to avoid shots beyond 300 yards if at all possible.

Steyr and Savage have made "Scout" rifles. IMO the Steyr is over-priced. I've shot the Savage, and found that the forward mounting of the scope would take some time in becoming familiar with it.

The new Ruger is close, but my opinion is that the hang-down magazine was a mistake. Good shooter, good hunting rifle, however.

 

[Loosedhorse]

No problem. The Scout Rifle never really caught on. It was to be the Swiss Army Knife of guns--but it would actually do everything well.

Problem is, outside of a survival situation where you can have only one gun to shoot both deer and enemy, it doesn't have a lot of appeal. Most people like having more than one gun and more than one caliber.

Also, some folks like levers or semi-autos; they don't "make weight" but can still be pretty darn versatile. I personally don't like the forward scope.

And some folks like .270/6.8.

Steyr and Savage have made "Scout" rifles.

CZ doesn't call theirs a scout, and it doesn't have the forward scope. But it seems about right to me.

 

[CmpsdNoMore]

I've been drawn to them lately because most of the areas I hunt 90% of the shots are within a 100 yards and having a full sized rifle with a large scope is really impractical. I've only hunted a few years but, while that kind of rifle I described is ok for stand hunting, I want to do some still hunting and shots could range from 20 yards to 200, depending on where I go.

Also, I'm a minimalist when it comes to firearms and like to keep it simple. I prefer a short lever/bolt carbine with iron sights over an AR-15 because of it's simplicity, ruggedness and because it doesn't wear the brass out as much for reloading. A small red dot mounted forward is also VERY fast for me to acquire targets with.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Plus, the concept really allowed the Mosin Nagant to be a somewhat useful rifle again. Although it doesn't fit all of Col. Cooper's requirements, it spawned a pseudo-scout market of aftermarket accessories.

Having a scout mounted scope on my M-44 took it from being a range toy to a viable North American game rifle.

 

[jakescott586]

I bought one of the first scout rifles that ruger put out several years ago, before the recent improvements. On the subject of the forward mount, long eye relief scope, I found it good for fast target aquisition, but not much else. I also don't think its a lot faster to get on target than a standard eye relief scope at low power with a little practice.

As far as the scout rifle as a "concept"…i like the idea. I got rid of mine because of problems with the rifle that had little to do with the scout concept. Heavy trigger pull, dud cartridge chambering (7mm-08, which I don't care for, just my opinion though) being my biggest complaints. All in all its a matter of personal taste. If you like one get one, and if you don't, don't get one.

 

[451 Detonics]

A book that should be in every shooters library is Jeff Cooper's "To Ride, Shoot Straight, an Speak the Truth". It cover many different topics and has section devoted to the handgun, rifle, hunting, the social shotgun...just a great mix of subjects. There is a chapter devoted to his idea of the scout rifle and it's development. Also a section on the forward mounted scope and caliber choice. If you don't own a copy of this book you should seek one out and buy it. Then actually read it!

This book is out of print right now but you can find copies on Amazon, ebay, and other online sources...just google it.

 

[Badlander]

I like the Scout concept. Mine is A 16"barreled Marlin 30-30. Weighes just over 7lbs full up.
If I were A one gun kind of guy this would be close to my ideal one gun.
but I am not A one gun guy.

 

[Kendal Black]

Cooper mentioned a couple of rifles as influential in arriving at the scout concept, the Winchester 94 and the Mannlicher Schoenauer--light and handy rifles that could serve in several roles. The idea was to do what these do, but do it better. Better in this case meant the .308 cartridge and the forward scope.

Compared to the Winchester (I have no experience with the Mannlicher) the .308 bolt scout offers more reach and punch, and typically (with exceptions), more accuracy as well. But it is no more trouble to carry.

A great many people are still quite satisfied with a good .30-30 in the all around role, not finding the scout's greater capabilities particularly relevant to what they are doing.

 

[35 Whelen]

The Scout rifle, as defined by Jeff Cooper, IMHO is not perfect for any one thing, but it will do just about everything.

I built one based on an FR-8 ('98 Mauser) in .308 twenty or so years ago and through the years it's become my go-to rifle in spite of owning over two dozen centerfire rifles. You need only do a search here to find posts of my little Scout and part of the truck load of game for which it has accounted.

Also, I'm a minimalist when it comes to firearms and like to keep it simple.

LOL me too, sort of.... I guess you could say I'm a firearms minimalist trapped in the body of a firearms lover.

As viable and useful as they are, they're not for everybody and they certainly go against todays rifle culture that primarily consists of either bolt rifles with gigantic scopes and bipods or M4 variations with lots of gizmos clamped to them.

Just yesterday I realized I hadn't sighted it in for deer season, so I grabbed it and a box of handloads and walked over to the 100 yd. bench. Two shots, less than 3/4" apart, 2 1/2" above point of aim (YAWN)...same as last year.

35W

 

[morcey2]

A secondary reason for the scope being forward-mounted was to enable a fixed magazine to be loaded w/ stripper clips. I think something like a SMLE carbine would make a great scout rifle.

Matt

 

[Kendal Black]

A secondary reason for the scope being forward-mounted was to enable a fixed magazine to be loaded w/ stripper clips. I think something like a SMLE carbine would make a great scout rifle.

Matt

That's true, and sort of a puzzle to me. All three of the currently produced factory scouts load with detachable box magazines and not with strippers.

Strippers are lighter for a given amount of ammo carried ready to go, less expensive too, and a Mauser-style fixed magazine is readily topped up with single rounds, through the top of the action. But progress has gone the other way.

 

[Averageman]

Lots of folks read parts of what Col Cooper wrote and what stuck with them about the Scout Rifle and what they liked is what they kept and applied to their Scout Rifle.
Col. Cooper was my favorite gun writer back then, but I think even he would agree that you have to apply his knowledge to your situation.
New technologies and changing times have given us many new ways to build a better Scout Rifle or to disgard it completely and come up with what is better for us.
I doubt Col. Cooper would stand steadfast against red dot sights, alloy's used in weapons or a reliable semi auto in a Scout Rifle were he alive today.

 

[DeepSouth]

Scout Rifle....AKA.....The modern version of a 30-30 lever action with open sights.

Just my 2¢

 

[Loosedhorse]

I built one based on an FR-8

Great gun, IMHO.

 

[35 Whelen]

New technologies and changing times have given us many new ways to build a better Scout Rifle or to disgard it completely and come up with what is better for us.
I doubt Col. Cooper would stand steadfast against red dot sights, alloy's used in weapons or a reliable semi auto in a Scout Rifle were he alive today.

Cooper died only 5 years ago, and though I can't typically quote him verbatum, I know he had no use for the electronic gadgets that adorn so many firearms today. Case in point, I found this by Cooper:

"We have discovered a marvelous use for the laser pistol sight. It is a nifty
toy for pet dogs, who can spend many happy hours chasing that orange dot all
over the living room. "

And another:

"According to our official informant from the Smallarms Development Division,
we learn that the proposed personal arm of the individual soldier will be a
two-phase, handheld weapon basically equipped with night vision. Its lower
barrel will be a semi-automatic 223 for use against individual targets up to
perhaps 200 meters. Its top barrel will be a 40-millimeter grenade launcher
utilizing laser sight setting and good for proximity hits out to 1,000
meters.
This is just one of many proposals which may be due for experimental
adoption, and all of which seem to run on batteries. Our informant, who
spent much of the Gulf War racing around trying to keep people supplied with
batteries, advises us to invest in Duracel. (Which was just recently
purchased by Gillette.) "

I think it's safe to say Cooper had little use for most modern firearms technology including electronic aiming devices. Thoughts?

35W

 

[USAF_Vet]

Considering how marksmanship in no longer really taught to the rank and file, I can see how someone like Cooper who was all about practical marksmanship would have disdain for electronic crutches.

No optic, gadget or gizmo you can bolt onto your rifle is going to make up for lack of basic marksmanship. and Murphy is just as prevalent on the battlefield as anywhere else, perhaps even moreso. Meaning that when it's a bad time for your battery to fail, it will. If that is all you have going for you, might as well hang it up.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

A secondary reason for the scope being forward-mounted was to enable a fixed magazine to be loaded w/ stripper clips. I think something like a SMLE carbine would make a great scout rifle.

Mine is in the shop having an FAL flash hider and bayonet mount attached, but looks 99% like this. It's an Ishapore 2A1, so the magazine's a bit more square and holds 12 ea. 7.62x51

 

[451 Detonics]

Murphy is just as prevalent on the battlefield as anywhere else, perhaps even moreso.

Understatement of the day! That SOB lives in my pocket I think.

No optic, gadget or gizmo you can bolt onto your rifle is going to make up for lack of basic marksmanship.

Very true.

I have had several "scout" rifles including a Remington 600 in .308 and another in 350 Remington Magnum (that one killed on one end and maimed on the other). Today I have one I think the Colonel would approve of, a Marlin 336 in 30-30. In Indiana I don't need anything heavier. The scope is on QD mounts and the rail has excellent iron sights. The slip on pad allows me to shoot in shirt sleeves or heavy coat if I slip it off.

 

[Welding Rod]

I like the forward mounted scope concept. I think it makes a lot of sense in concept on a gun like the M1A or Mini 14 or a bolt gun where access to the top of the action has some advantages. However I found with a SAI SOCOM 16 that I didn't care for the balance of the gun at all after putting a forward scope on it. I went back to irons.

I think I would rather have irons on a bolt gun as well.

I might change my mind if trying something small and very light like a Aimpoint Micro... don't know.

 

[Averageman]

I think it's safe to say Cooper had little use for most modern firearms technology including electronic aiming devices. Thoughts?

5 years ago much of what we had as far as electronic sights were in the teething pain era. I think Trijicon has gone a long way to prove they are Battle worthy.
Things change, technology advances and we can embrace it and take what we know in to the future with us or become that Old Guy who yells "You kids get off my grass!"

 

[22lr]

The idea of a "do it all" rifle is such a personal preference that marketing any gun as a "do it all" will certainly fail. My idea of a do it all rifle is as far from a scout rifle as possible. The scout concept is ok, but I will always prefer a bull barreled 308.

I also am finding less and less use for electronic sights myself. Along with my preference for a rifle, I just prefer accuracy.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

The "ideal" Scout rifle was to be one meter long, and weigh no more than 3 kilos with optics, and other restrictions. This was the concept of the rifle, per Cooper. Unfortunately, few custom rifles ever met the criteria, and NONE of the production guns do. Personally, I'd love to have a scout rifle that DOES meet the specs. A .308 that weighs no more than 6.6lbs with scope? Boy, wouldn't THAT be nice to carry? I have what they call a pseudo-scout, which is a rifle similar to the concept, but not quite meeting the standards set. It is a Remington 700 .30-06, Burris Scout scope, and 19" barrel. It's weight is over the limit, but it shoots great, is very fast on target, and is very reasonable in weight compared to other rifles I've taken to field. If you don't want a rifle that would carry in the field like it wasn't there, I'd like to know why. Sure recoil would be a bit more than a heavier rifle, but the trade off would be less fatigue, longer hunts, and a smile every time you hefted the gun............