Pocket gun Poll
- Thread starter Glamdring
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hoppinglark
Member
P-32 in right pocket
2 mags in left
"that's what i carry when I'm unarmed"
2 mags in left
"that's what i carry when I'm unarmed"
Jim March
Member
From a 2" barrel, the hottest 22LRs pull 1,000fps with a 32grain for around 70ft/lbs of energy.
From the same tube, the best 22Mags involve a 30grain doing 1,300fps, for 113ft/lbs energy.
For comparo: 32ACP is at best a 60grain at a bit over 900fps, for energy at 120ish ft/lbs. Which is the 22Mag closer to, the LR or the 32?
You assumed the two 22s were the same, and built your poll around that assumption.
It wasn't correct. Not anywhere close.
Data...
22LR:
http://www.naaminis.com/bwlrvel.html
22Mag:
http://www.naaminis.com/bwmvel.html
32ACP:
http://www.naaminis.com/vel32new.html
Energy table:
http://www.naaminis.com/energy.html
From the same tube, the best 22Mags involve a 30grain doing 1,300fps, for 113ft/lbs energy.
For comparo: 32ACP is at best a 60grain at a bit over 900fps, for energy at 120ish ft/lbs. Which is the 22Mag closer to, the LR or the 32?
You assumed the two 22s were the same, and built your poll around that assumption.
It wasn't correct. Not anywhere close.
Data...
22LR:
http://www.naaminis.com/bwlrvel.html
22Mag:
http://www.naaminis.com/bwmvel.html
32ACP:
http://www.naaminis.com/vel32new.html
Energy table:
http://www.naaminis.com/energy.html
m.i.sanders
Member
P-32 in the front pocket when I can't carry my XD.
Jim March: I have nothing against the 22 rimfires magnum or otherwise. I don't pay any attention to KE, as I recall from High School physics KE equations only apply if both projectile and target don't deform. Plus if you compare calibers using KE then 17 calibers would be better than 44 magnums, 30-30, 303, etc. Which is not the case in the real world.
For self defense rimfires do have some disadvantages vs centerfires. First of all the only guns you can get them in that are smaller than a more powerful cartridge, that I know of anyway, are the SA mini revolvers. Which give you five rounds of SA fire. To reload you have to remove cylinder from the gun and poke out the round then reload one at a time.
Now my P32 is about 1 ounce heavier than 22 mag mini revolver holds 7+1 or 10+1 if you use the extension mag. The slide locks back after the last shot, and you can reload very quickly with a spare mag.
So IMHO they serve very different roles. One is fairly slow to fire and extremly slow to reload. The other though still very weak by my standards can be fired quickly and reloaded quickly. They serve different roles/tactical niches because of the rate of fire, ease of reloading, and IMO the fact that the mini revolvers can't be operated with one hand smoothly at combat speeds.
Honestly if I am carrying anything smaller than a 38+p I consider myself unarmed. I really REALLY don't want to get into a gunfight with any of those mouse guns (really don't want to get in any gunfights, well painball can be fun
). I don't expect them to change a goblin's opinion about his planned course of action.
BTW I prefer 71 grain FMJ-FP in my P32 to hollowpoints.
For self defense rimfires do have some disadvantages vs centerfires. First of all the only guns you can get them in that are smaller than a more powerful cartridge, that I know of anyway, are the SA mini revolvers. Which give you five rounds of SA fire. To reload you have to remove cylinder from the gun and poke out the round then reload one at a time.
Now my P32 is about 1 ounce heavier than 22 mag mini revolver holds 7+1 or 10+1 if you use the extension mag. The slide locks back after the last shot, and you can reload very quickly with a spare mag.
So IMHO they serve very different roles. One is fairly slow to fire and extremly slow to reload. The other though still very weak by my standards can be fired quickly and reloaded quickly. They serve different roles/tactical niches because of the rate of fire, ease of reloading, and IMO the fact that the mini revolvers can't be operated with one hand smoothly at combat speeds.
Honestly if I am carrying anything smaller than a 38+p I consider myself unarmed. I really REALLY don't want to get into a gunfight with any of those mouse guns (really don't want to get in any gunfights, well painball can be fun
). I don't expect them to change a goblin's opinion about his planned course of action.BTW I prefer 71 grain FMJ-FP in my P32 to hollowpoints.
Jim March
Member
At close range, that small slidegun can go out of battery on muzzle contact.
The NAA Black Widow conceals VERY well in the pocket, and accuracy is superb, often on par with much bigger guns. You can also practice with it dirt cheap with 22LRs.
The firepower isn't usually a big factor at "bad breath range" where these pocket pieces are usually deployed.
Anyways.
We can debate all you want. You didn't just debate, you implanted your opinions into the poll questions.
The NAA Black Widow conceals VERY well in the pocket, and accuracy is superb, often on par with much bigger guns. You can also practice with it dirt cheap with 22LRs.
The firepower isn't usually a big factor at "bad breath range" where these pocket pieces are usually deployed.
Anyways.
We can debate all you want. You didn't just debate, you implanted your opinions into the poll questions.
sm
member
<raised hand>
Umm I've never shot the Keltec P-32. I do have a Keltec P-11 and I DO know it will fire out of battery. I have done this numerous times...just push against a teddy, slide retracts -pull trigger and bang-repeat. I did this with a pillow to replicate -ahem-contact firing. Other P-11's will also (heard they would, but I don't believe everything I read-or hear--have to test for myself)
OK, anybody tried this with a P-32? Results ?
thanks.
Umm I've never shot the Keltec P-32. I do have a Keltec P-11 and I DO know it will fire out of battery. I have done this numerous times...just push against a teddy, slide retracts -pull trigger and bang-repeat. I did this with a pillow to replicate -ahem-contact firing. Other P-11's will also (heard they would, but I don't believe everything I read-or hear--have to test for myself)
OK, anybody tried this with a P-32? Results ?
thanks.
Jim March
Member
Hmmmmmm.
In such out-of-battery firing, the rim must be held on the extractor, right? Otherwise the headspacing would be hosed and it wouldn't even go bang. And part of the case is unsupported?
This...doesn't sound good?
In such out-of-battery firing, the rim must be held on the extractor, right? Otherwise the headspacing would be hosed and it wouldn't even go bang. And part of the case is unsupported?
This...doesn't sound good?
sm
member
Hey Jim, that's why you get paid the big bucks here at THR--to come up with answers
I thought it was kinda weird to have muzzle contact and still go boom. Don't plan on a real life test of this...but...well you know, things happen. Not something I make a habit of doing, just well, I heard, I tried, it did, I did it again...ok that was intersesting. Just fills a niche, my only plastic gun.
Currently don't have anything smaller than this P-11. I have used the Beretta Jetfire, and 21A in 22lr. NAA mini's in22lr and 22 mag.
Thanks Jim...
I thought it was kinda weird to have muzzle contact and still go boom. Don't plan on a real life test of this...but...well you know, things happen. Not something I make a habit of doing, just well, I heard, I tried, it did, I did it again...ok that was intersesting. Just fills a niche, my only plastic gun.
Currently don't have anything smaller than this P-11. I have used the Beretta Jetfire, and 21A in 22lr. NAA mini's in22lr and 22 mag.
Thanks Jim...
CasualShooter
Member
P32 Bigger Hole = Better
P11 works well in waistband with belt clip but doesn't pocket as well as p32.
Tried S&W Mod 36 (J frame) but can't get it out of pocket - Hammer spur catches. :banghead:
Bigger Hole = Better P11 works well in waistband with belt clip but doesn't pocket as well as p32.
Tried S&W Mod 36 (J frame) but can't get it out of pocket - Hammer spur catches. :banghead:
denfoote
Member
9X19.
Kahr MK9 lite in a Galco pocket holster!!
Kahr MK9 lite in a Galco pocket holster!!
Jim March
Member
re1973: very funny re: the bucks.
On further contemplation...at what point would the shell blow up, spray hot gas down the mag well and set off a chain reaction?
One the one hand, if it's out of battery far enough, there'll be room for pressure to escape out the ejection port, which would be better than the alternative. BUT, given the feed-ramp cutout, the lack of case support probably happens at the lowest surface of the shell first as the slide comes back. Depending on a lot of factors, it'd be a "race" between the ejection port opening up and the shell blowing downwards before that.
Because we're "only" dealing with 32ACP, Kel-Tec clearly didn't include an out-of-battery disconnect on the trigger, something common in 45ACPs...I assume because if a 45 cut loose the odds of such a chain blow down the mag would be far higher.
Anyways. Aside from the dangers of just testing an out-of-battery firing condition, in actual combat use your odds of having the shell slip off of the ejector and failing to ignite at all are quite high. If the out-of-battery condition is high enough to open the ejector port, your pressure could drop enough to render the round mostly harmless.
Upshot: this is why I consider the snubby 38/357 wheelgun the kings of the close-combat handguns. Besides working well on muzzle contact, they're quick to deploy with just one control (trigger) and are difficult to grapple away.
The Black Widow is small enough for 24/7 front pocket carry. I wouldn't call it a "king" but as a backup/surprise option, it has a lot of merit.
On further contemplation...at what point would the shell blow up, spray hot gas down the mag well and set off a chain reaction?
One the one hand, if it's out of battery far enough, there'll be room for pressure to escape out the ejection port, which would be better than the alternative. BUT, given the feed-ramp cutout, the lack of case support probably happens at the lowest surface of the shell first as the slide comes back. Depending on a lot of factors, it'd be a "race" between the ejection port opening up and the shell blowing downwards before that.
Because we're "only" dealing with 32ACP, Kel-Tec clearly didn't include an out-of-battery disconnect on the trigger, something common in 45ACPs...I assume because if a 45 cut loose the odds of such a chain blow down the mag would be far higher.
Anyways. Aside from the dangers of just testing an out-of-battery firing condition, in actual combat use your odds of having the shell slip off of the ejector and failing to ignite at all are quite high. If the out-of-battery condition is high enough to open the ejector port, your pressure could drop enough to render the round mostly harmless
.Upshot: this is why I consider the snubby 38/357 wheelgun the kings of the close-combat handguns. Besides working well on muzzle contact, they're quick to deploy with just one control (trigger) and are difficult to grapple away.
The Black Widow is small enough for 24/7 front pocket carry. I wouldn't call it a "king" but as a backup/surprise option, it has a lot of merit.
CasualShooter
Member
Hey, Jim.
No flame, you are obviously quite thoughtful and analytical; but, food for thought.
First, anyone who has let the threat get close enough to allow the muzzle contact you are worried about may find that he/she has just lost his/her life to the bad guy with a knife.
And there are many reasons, assuming such close contact, NOT to press the muzzle against the opponent. For one, it lets your opponent know where your weapon is without having to look for it and you may just find that it has suddenly been taken away from you.
If someone can get their hands on your gun, you may find that they have the leverage to do just that; and, they may also be able to prevent you from fireing while they are doing it. Did you know that grabbing the cylinder of a revolver can prevent its rotation and make DA trigger pull impossible? And a thumb or finger between the hammer and frame can prevent you from firing even a cocked revolver?
There are many pros and cons on both sides of the revolver v.s. semi-auto argument; but, IMHO out of battery caused by muzzle contact is not one of them.
I don't want to start that argument of revolver v.s. semi-auto here (besides I use both).
It just seems to me that you're giving too much weight to a non-issue. :banghead:
For pocket carry, first consideration is being able to get it into and out of your pocket. Darn! That rules out my 629 classic.
Next consideration is whether the chosen cartridge is capable of doing enough damage to be of any use. As I said in an earlier post - Bigger Hole = Better - That's why I choose 32 acp over .22 LR, 22 WMR, and .25 acp.
Third consideration is delivery system and these are the reasons I choose P32. Yes, I'm considering moving to the P3AT.
Admittedly, there must be some compromise between the second and third considerations.
Now, if only Kel-Tec would come out with a version of the P32 in Cal .45 ACP ....
No flame, you are obviously quite thoughtful and analytical; but, food for thought.
First, anyone who has let the threat get close enough to allow the muzzle contact you are worried about may find that he/she has just lost his/her life to the bad guy with a knife.
And there are many reasons, assuming such close contact, NOT to press the muzzle against the opponent. For one, it lets your opponent know where your weapon is without having to look for it and you may just find that it has suddenly been taken away from you.
If someone can get their hands on your gun, you may find that they have the leverage to do just that; and, they may also be able to prevent you from fireing while they are doing it. Did you know that grabbing the cylinder of a revolver can prevent its rotation and make DA trigger pull impossible? And a thumb or finger between the hammer and frame can prevent you from firing even a cocked revolver?
There are many pros and cons on both sides of the revolver v.s. semi-auto argument; but, IMHO out of battery caused by muzzle contact is not one of them.
I don't want to start that argument of revolver v.s. semi-auto here (besides I use both).
It just seems to me that you're giving too much weight to a non-issue. :banghead: For pocket carry, first consideration is being able to get it into and out of your pocket. Darn! That rules out my 629 classic.
Next consideration is whether the chosen cartridge is capable of doing enough damage to be of any use. As I said in an earlier post - Bigger Hole = Better - That's why I choose 32 acp over .22 LR, 22 WMR, and .25 acp.
Third consideration is delivery system and these are the reasons I choose P32. Yes, I'm considering moving to the P3AT.
Admittedly, there must be some compromise between the second and third considerations.
Now, if only Kel-Tec would come out with a version of the P32 in Cal .45 ACP ....
Last edited:
OEF_VET
Member
<----Another P-32 packer! (May upgrade to P3AT one day, but don't tell my P32)
Landric
Member
Howdy,
I carry a S&W 342PD Airlite in a pocket holster with Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P or Magsafe Defender ammunition.
Sometimes I carry a P32 with PMC 71 grain FMJ, but usually it's the 342PD.
I carry a S&W 342PD Airlite in a pocket holster with Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P or Magsafe Defender ammunition.
Sometimes I carry a P32 with PMC 71 grain FMJ, but usually it's the 342PD.
Gordon
Member
S&W mod 37 with 148 or 158 grain ammo is pretty hard to beat out of the pocket. I like the hammer for SA aimed fire longer shots.When in the last State Park, 6 miles in with mountain lion warnings posted everywhere, it was comforting to my little grand daughters to know grandpa could do more than yell for the Rangers! PS: Rangers would never know it was there .
WhoKnowsWho
Member
P32 in front pocket.
Kahr K40 IWb when it isn't too hot.
In the Arizona desert, it's never hot, yup...
Kahr K40 IWb when it isn't too hot.
In the Arizona desert, it's never hot, yup...
northernedge
Member
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2003
- Messages
- 4
hoppinglark
"P-32 in right pocket
2 mags in left
"that's what i carry when I'm unarmed"
LOL
How come no 357sig, 10mm, or 45ACP on your poll? You know Springfield, Glock and other companies have paved new ground toward micro compacts in outstanding defense calibers. I recently sold off a 38. snubby towards a Glock30 45 ACP. It will also replace the Glock19 I normally carry. These big bored micro sub-compact pistols are the best thing the gun companies have done in a long time, in my opinion.
__________________
"P-32 in right pocket
2 mags in left
"that's what i carry when I'm unarmed"
LOL
How come no 357sig, 10mm, or 45ACP on your poll? You know Springfield, Glock and other companies have paved new ground toward micro compacts in outstanding defense calibers. I recently sold off a 38. snubby towards a Glock30 45 ACP. It will also replace the Glock19 I normally carry. These big bored micro sub-compact pistols are the best thing the gun companies have done in a long time, in my opinion.
__________________
BlackJack
Member
My right front pocket carry is now an S&W 49. Bodyguard style blued steel .38 Special in an Andrews leather holster firing Speer Gold Dot 125gr +Ps. I have tried different guns in that form of carry including the Glock 26 which did fine. I switched away from it because it couldn't be fired from within a pocket--cloth jams slide. I also have tried the airweights and lighter guns, but they're not as controllable in my hands as is steel. I am currently contemplating a change to an S&W 649 so I can go stainless and also to .357 Mag. I work in a professional environment where polo shirts and dockers are the norm year round. And it get hot here hence the move to stainless to keep the moisture from rusting or corroding the gun.
DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
P-32 - light as a feather attention getter.
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