Point Shooting

[sbwaters]

Just got an iTarget laser .45 that shoots at a target recorded on my iPhone.

I was surprised how accurate a draw and point shoot is at 5 yards with minimal practice.

 

[Sav .250]

Practice...Practice....Practice!

 

[9MMare]

IMO paper target shooting is excellent for learning trigger control...you can track and fix things. Develop important muscle memory. But "for self-defense" I think that learning to a) move and shoot and b) point shoot is very important in terms of realistically addressing self-defense situations. I am speaking to practice at the self defense distances, up to 30 feet.

Farther than that, there's a good chance I can avoid the confrontation altogether. And I have little intent to engage if I can retreat safely.

If you plan to engage at longer distances, then stance, taking time to aim, focus, are more important. Distance can create the opportunity for that time.

 

[LiveLife]

Repost from beginning of thread to point shoot accurately progressively at longer distances (Step-by-step instructions and 4 videos) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857

Take a look at this series of videos by D.R. Middlebrooks. In the first video titled "Surgical Point Shooting", he point shoots a pistol without sights and hits 18"x24" plate at 25/50/75/100 yards.



In the second video titled "High Speed Point Shooting", he shoots moving metal spinners at 10 yards, double taps and high speed point shooting is done at 10 yards including his 53 year old wife Barb point shooting at 10/15 yards.

 

[BigMacMI]

I have read quite a bit on point shooting. I do think that instinctual shooting is very effective means of SD shooting.

I have a background in human motor control, and I am on the fence about deliberately practicing point shooting.

What I mean by this is, if you have 100 rounds per week to shoot, what is your best use of this time? 100 rounds bullseye shooting? 100 rounds point shooting, 50/50, 70/30 etc. Obviously if you consciously practice PS an additional 100 trigger pulls a week, you will get better..

My thesis paper was in skill acquisition in novice performers utilizing an accuracy task (dart throwing). I would be really interested in a study comparing two groups of shooters practicing point shooting only (no sights), and sights on group.

 

[LiveLife]

I am on the fence about deliberately practicing point shooting.

BigMacMI, good point on sighted shooting vs unsighted shooting which I have found is the fundamental difference between conventional shooting vs point shooting.

When most of us were introduced to shooting, a heavy emphasis was placed on the use of front/rear sights. When I was going through Army basic training, front sight focus with "ghost" rear ring was key to marksmanship. When I started shooting USPSA matches, "front sight flash" was the foundation for fast double taps. So I believed use of front sight was key to accuracy.

Then my defensive shooting instructor, a USPSA RSO who also taught police/sheriff SWAT teams, challenged me - If I wanted to shoot accurately in real life, I needed to learn point shooting. Our point shooting training was done with front sights removed from our pistols and we practiced until we got 4"-6" shot groups at USPSA targets set at 7-15 yards. Later, some regional USPSA match shooters talked to me about "zen" of shooting and to elevate my shot calling, focus on the target only (not on the front sight) and make holes "appear" on target. And when I mastered making double taps appear on target COM, practice to make double taps appear anywhere on the target.

Obviously if you consciously practice PS an additional 100 trigger pulls a week, you will get better.

Before, when I introduced new shooters to shooting, I had them stand at 5 yards and focus on the sights while pulling the trigger. Then I worked with them on improving consistency of grip and trigger control to reduce group size.

Now, I have them stand at 5 yards but dry fire while watching the front sight. I have them dry fire until FRONT SIGHT DOES NOT MOVE when the hammer/striker is released (THIS IS KEY to Point Shooting and reducing trigger/grip induced flyers). Then I have them fire with eyes closed until POI matches POA COM. Once they master this, I have them practice aiming/point shooting at different dots on target while moving target out to 7-10-15 yards.

Often, range staff and especially husbands of new shooters are surprised at how fast new shooters are able to shoot accurately, particularly point shooting which most have not mastered. Instead of focusing on front sight and recoil, I have the shooters focus on the holes and to make necessary adjustments so the holes appear on the target where they want them to appear.

Do you look at the ignition of your car when you insert your key?

Most people will insert the key without having to look at the location of ignition - this is point keying.

I would be really interested in a study comparing two groups of shooters practicing point shooting only (no sights), and sights on group.

I have shared with a lot of people to point shoot (at least the version I use) and found different people have different learning speed to become proficient with point shooting. Some people can point shoot 4"-6" groups at 5-7 yards on the first session while some people can take several sessions.

I think the difference is their body's ability to consistently reproduce same physical movements. When I have them point at COM with their eyes closed, some people are able to reproduce same POA better than others and this ability will affect how consistent they will be with point shooting at different targets.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I have read quite a bit on point shooting. I do think that instinctual shooting is very effective means of SD shooting.

I have a background in human motor control, and I am on the fence about deliberately practicing point shooting.

What I mean by this is, if you have 100 rounds per week to shoot, what is your best use of this time? 100 rounds bullseye shooting? 100 rounds point shooting, 50/50, 70/30 etc. Obviously if you consciously practice PS an additional 100 trigger pulls a week, you will get better..

My thesis paper was in skill acquisition in novice performers utilizing an accuracy task (dart throwing). I would be really interested in a study comparing two groups of shooters practicing point shooting only (no sights), and sights on group.

There ain't no animal that preaches point shooting only so there goes the basis for your thesis.
Since point shooting has always been touted as a compliment to aimed fire you may as well also take the VS. out of the equation.
(And dart throwing has nothing in common with point shooting hand/long guns.)
However, once shooting proficiency has been obtained I feel that 70% of ones practice should be point shooting at distances of 0-15 feet since that is where the vast majority of self defense situations will occur.
Naturally if self defense is not the primary goal of a shooter ( perhaps his interest is in competitive or bullseye shooting) then this ratio would change greatly.

 

[BigMacMI]

There ain't no animal that preaches point shooting only so there goes the basis for your thesis.
Since point shooting has always been touted as a compliment to aimed fire you may as well also take the VS. out of the equation.
(And dart throwing has nothing in common with point shooting hand/long guns.)
However, once shooting proficiency has been obtained I feel that 70% of ones practice should be point shooting at distances of 0-15 feet since that is where the vast majority of self defense situations will occur.
Naturally if self defense is not the primary goal of a shooter ( perhaps his interest is in competitive or bullseye shooting) then this ratio would change greatly.

Lol, aggro much?

Yes, point shooting is trained as a compliment to aimed fire. Didn't question such. The idea, for most of us on fixed income/shots per week, is how to MAXIMIZE the skills that we all agree are important (hitting a target quickly and effectively) for SD situations.

I will ignore the point of 2 discrete motor tasks having nothing in common.

I don't think the point was to be as disagreeable as you may have taken it... I am on a fixed shooting income. I just want to be as good as I can be in varied situations.

BDS... how dare you compare putting a key into the ignition to shooting... they share nothing in common

 

[LiveLife]

But there are SO many things that we do out of sheer muscle memory ... like turning on the light switch, etc. ... done with precision without looking.

Point shooting became integral part of my range drills when my 8th degree Taekwondo master told me he was starting to have muscle fatigue issues and arthritis but he could still pull the trigger on a gun without issues. By this time, I had been shooting USPSA matches for a few years and when I showed the master video of my match stages that were particularly complex with moving/pop up through window/sporadic pneumatic targets, he said even a martial arts master could not move faster than bullets from proficient pistol shooter. After much pondering that someday, I too was going to get old and have muscle fatigue issues, I stopped taking TKD lessons and focused more on practical/point shooting.

For me, I consider point shooting as another shooting option, available to me to use if/when the need arises, especially for closer defensive shooting distances. I figure if I master my shooting skills and techniques now, I will still be proficient enough when I get older with slower speed. It's same as me practicing single strong/weak hand shooting along with other range drills (I use 1/4 and 1/2 sheets of copy paper as targets for my "sighted" range drills but full sheets for point shooting and "eyes closed" drills)

I am on a fixed shooting income. I just want to be as good as I can be in varied situations.

You can practice point shooting without firing your pistol:

- Dry fire until the front sight doesn't move when the hammer/striker is released
- Hang a copy paper with a dot in the center
- Clear pistol then draw and point at the dot on target
- Check sight alignment and make necessary adjustment at shoulders/waist until draw/point matches sight alignment to dot
- Repeat until proficient
- Draw and point at different small targets around the room like light switches or door knobs

 

[Deaf Smith]

Very interesting article on sighted fire.

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/cant-use-sights-gunfight/

Deaf

 

[Kendal Black]

The whole discussion would be simpler if we had sights that actually answer to the purpose of a pistol: close defense, often against moving targets, sometimes in poor light.

Technology keeps trying to help. Bigger iron sights, red ramps, glowing front sights, dots or outlines on the sights, all were attempts to solve the problem.

There was the Guttersnipe, and the grooves AMT and Colt milled into the tops of some pistols. Their lack of popularity speaks to that solution's effectiveness.

Attaching a laser beam to a pistol to show where the gun is pointed is interesting, and it was high tech when it was first tried, but it is a solution bringing some problems of its own.

New and hot for this fashion season is a red dot small and robust enough to be useful as a pistol sight. I'm really hoping this is going to fix the problem, but I've been disappointed before.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Fix what problem?
Point shooting can be easily learned and is very effective within it's range limitations.
Better sights will not change the fact that in some situations trying to use the sights is not a viable option.
No one states that point shooting negates the need for rapid aimed fire methods so the article shared by Deaf, IMHO, is irrelevant.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Attaching a laser beam to a pistol to show where the gun is pointed is interesting, and it was high tech when it was first tried, but it is a solution bringing some problems of its own.

New and hot for this fashion season is a red dot small and robust enough to be useful as a pistol sight. I'm really hoping this is going to fix the problem, but I've been disappointed before.

All the laser did was demonstrate that if you have poor trigger control the dot, and thus the shot, would go wild. Index and trigger control are the keys. Just how you index it is up to you, but you must control that trigger or even at 3 ft you can miss.

Deaf

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, I am not advocating point shooting replace sighted shooting rather just another shooting option when/if need arises.

It's like us practicing two handed vs one handed shooting. While I prefer two handed shooting, if the need arises for one handed shooting, I want to be proficiency with one handed shooting just in case.

 

[Kendal Black]

Fix what problem?

Missing the target.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Missing the target.

Since the majority of departments teach aimed fire only ( or 95% two handed aimed fire techniques )it seems rather odd to blame point shooting as the culprit of missing the target.
Ditto if you are suggesting that the miserable national police hit rate can be fixed by making gun sights more visible.
Certainly there are other factors-- physical as well as psychological-- in play here.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Since the majority of departments teach aimed fire only ( or 95% two handed aimed fire techniques )it seems rather odd to blame point shooting as the culprit of missing the target.
Ditto if you are suggesting that the miserable national police hit rate can be fixed by making gun sights more visible.
Certainly there are other factors-- physical as well as psychological-- in play here.

Majority of the departments personnel also practice... zero. They qualify only to qualify and then they go back to work.

I've seen a few LEOs who are very good shots. Two FBI agents who went to our IDPA matches and one DPS trooper who was gun nuttier than I am. You will find as you go from local to state to federal service where they requirements are harder, the (in general) better the shots are. BUT, even then, most of them just do enough to qualify. So using aimed .vs. point training is moot since few LEOs practice what they have learned in any training session.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

Oh, and just for the 'other side' of the debate....

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/cant-use-sights-gunfight/

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/cant-use-sights-gunfight/

There you go again, adding the straw man argument of point VS sighted techniques.
What debate are you referencing when the issue is not point VS. but seeing the need for training/practice in both methods??
As to the article that you reposted yet again..who ever stated that sights could never be seen/ used in close combat?
What, exactly, is the author trying to convey?
What message are you trying to convey?
Is his/your belief that training can overcome the need for some type of point/ retention shooting?
As to the average LEO -- most get a lot more training in firearms/ deadly force than the typical civilian.
Not to mention they place their butts on the line every day and , due to daily experience, can deal with violence/potential violence a lot better than even a true gun bug could ever dream possible.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Wasn't a 'straw man'. As I say..

You use your 'presentation', that is draw, to form an index on where you want the bullet to go. You learn to use that presentation. I don't care if it's one handed, two handed, isosceles, weaver, chapman, tea drinking.... Then good trigger control to make sure it goes were you wanted it to. Sights? They are used to VERIFY the alignment, not MAKE the alignment(nor adjust the sight picture.) Hence 'flash sight picture.' And if you can't see your sights... bring the gun up AS IF YOU COULD SEE THE SIGHTS.

It's that simple folks. Train to use one's sights and then if the circumstance makes it impossible to see them just use the same presentation.

You can simplify your training that way. Not everyone as time to train often.

And for those times ones needs zero range fire, any good retention method will work (and that kind of thing as been around a long.. long.. time.)

Deaf

 

[redbullitt]

As far as fast point shooting that looks pretty good to me lol... Those hits are all pretty much on target.

I practice it a bit. I think it could be useful, and if nothing else it is fun! If you can gauge where you muzzle is pointing better then you can be faster shooting in general I would think.

 

[strambo]

There is a distance past 2yds and under 4 where retention doesn't work and it may not make sense to stick the gun all the way out in the BG's face.

That Luckygunner article was kinda annoying IMO. I don't know who is preaching "you can't use sights in combat," obviously it is possible. The first example was an officer on a foot chase (role of the hunter) at 10yds...of course he can use his sights! Same for just about any military member, especially the elite ones, they are the hunters (not reacting to a surprise, extreme close quarter ambush).

The other vignettes talk about close reactive shooting and how they were ineffective until they used their sights. Well, how does that mean PS is bad since they haven't trained it? What if they trained PS and sighted fire and those initial rounds were effective? Wouldn't that be even better? I do agree with Deaf that most officers have very little training at all, so their hit rates are gonna be poor no matter what.

I've said it before in this thread, but their are many reasons why it might be very difficult to see your sights (not impossible Luckygunner). In no particular order, crappy tiny sights - the kind on the very popular pocket .380s and snubs. Poor light. Dialated pupils as a physiological response. Tunnel vision on the threat (their gun, their knife etc.).

You can train to elite levels and maybe these factors won't affect you (nice example in the article of a guy with a perfect score from concealment at Rogers and a Master level competitor...what about us mere-mortals?) You can be in the position of the hunter which helps a lot....but we don't get to choose that in a civilian setting. You can just train sighted fire and just do the best you can to fight the factors above like in the article (but that wastes time), or you can also include some PS to make the most of those first 1-3 shots as you move and transition to sights (if they weren't viable at the outset).

If you can see your sights (both visually, and able to focus on them psychologically), and the distance is enough that there is no danger of gun-grab/deflection by bringing the gun all the way up, by all means use them all of the time that is the case.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Very logical conclusions Strambo and I could not agree more.
Deaf and I have had this same old discussion for over 16 years and, to be fair, he has been 100% consistent.
Deaf defines retention shooting for distances out to 9 feet-- for the record that is NOT my definition of retention situations---and unsighted shooting for longer distances using the same methods as if one could see the sights.
( In other words in the point shoulder method favored by Applegate and many others)
However, he does not consider either of these methods to be point shooting, nor does he see the need to practice unsighted methods because your sighted techniques will automatically transfer over to point--I mean unsighted--techniques.
Perhaps it is the term Point Shooting that he has an issue with?
Then again at least he--unlike the article that he shared --agrees that there are times that the sights cannot be used and alternative concepts are necessary.

Yep--this has been discussed before
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/retention-distance.738070/

 

[murf]

Wasn't a 'straw man'. As I say..

You use your 'presentation', that is draw, to form an index on where you want the bullet to go. You learn to use that presentation. I don't care if it's one handed, two handed, isosceles, weaver, chapman, tea drinking.... Then good trigger control to make sure it goes were you wanted it to. Sights? They are used to VERIFY the alignment, not MAKE the alignment(nor adjust the sight picture.) Hence 'flash sight picture.' And if you can't see your sights... bring the gun up AS IF YOU COULD SEE THE SIGHTS.

It's that simple folks. Train to use one's sights and then if the circumstance makes it impossible to see them just use the same presentation.

You can simplify your training that way. Not everyone as time to train often.

And for those times ones needs zero range fire, any good retention method will work (and that kind of thing as been around a long.. long.. time.)

Deaf

sounds like you are teaching someone how to shoot a shotgun.

murf

 

[Kendal Black]

I saw something very interesting some years back. I am sorry that I do not remember the source, to cite it, but perhaps someone here knows the citation.

Anyway, a PD in California undertook intensive training in target-focused shooting, including lots of range practice. In about the same era, a PD in Alaska took an intensive course in the Modern Technique and use of the sights. In both cases, the hit rates in both departments rose, temporarily, into the ninety-something percentiles.

Am I remembering this correctly? It must have been twenty or more years ago. If this is right, then the answer is before us, and it is not in debating the specifics of technique.