Low-Ready or "pull back"

[YammyMonkey]

I was doing some draw and aim practice today and thought of something...

In the draw stroke you bring the gun up toward the chest and then extend the arms straight out. When your hands are at the top of the stroke, gun close to the body you have a very good view of what's in front of you.

Is this position, top of draw stroke, arms close to chest, taught as a replacement for or alternate to the traditional low ready?

Seems to me this position would be superior to the low ready because...

1) forward view is just as good
2) muzzle can easily be dropped toward the gound to help minimize ND danger (if that's possible)
3) would be a more practiced position since you'd be executing it every draw
4) could allow faster first shot to COM from that position since the gun is already generally aligned chest-level
5) would be more retention-friendly since the gun is near your body for those really close times
6) would allow you to use a weapon-mounted light to help ID a target without coming out of the "better forward visibility" position

#4 could involve point shooting the first shot at mid-stroke to COM if you're so inclined. There have been a number of "point shooting is the greatest vs. point shooting is the devil" threads so I'd like to avoid that debate here.

#6 involves doing something that a lot of people are not comfortable with, myself included but was added because some would consider that an advantage. I'd also like to avoid discussion of that as good/bad technique and focus on the position.

All input is very welcome, just trying something new (to me at least) and trying to learn at the same time.

 

[VaughnT]

Yes, the position is taught as an alternative or compliment to the low-ready position.

As you've stated, this a point where the weapon comes in line with the target and from which you can reasonably expect to hit your target should you fire.

Of course, this is more of a close-range retention position than a fighting position.

 

[bradvanhorn]

I believe you've got the right idea. Your "pull back" position is essentially what we'd call the guard position in FIST-FIRE, and it is a superb position for weapons retention; far superior in my opinion to the ordinary ready positions.

 

[Paul Gomez]

The position you describe is used by many trainers, shooters and competitors. It goes by many names, such as 'Chest Ready', 'Ready Gun', 'Compressed Ready' and 'Close Challenge'.

 

[Damon]

I've heard it called the retention position.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Generally, "Retention Position" refers to keeping the gun at the pectoral reference point and corresponds to the second count of a 4-step draw. The chest ready position is the third step in the presentation that OPS, and several other schools, teach with count four being full extension at eye level and one being firing grip on the holstered weapon.

 

[dshimm]

This is the "ready" position taught at Storm Mountain, also.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Paul, post some of those photos you did a while back, those were immensely helpful.

One of my trainers calls it the 'close guard' or something like that. He likes to use me since he knows I'm one of those guys that's stuck in Weaver (which I prefer because of my lesser upper body strength) to show the difference.

I don't care for the position myself since I don't like the idea of the po-po or other friendlies showing up in that direction and me pointing a gat at them (cops have a way of reacting badly to that), but will remain open to it and try it more when I do some force-on-force.

 

[Damon]

Paul,

You are right. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Telperion]

I was also taught this position as "ready gun". A cop who I've shot with is not a big fan of the rentention qualities of this position, and to illustrate the point he had me face him in this position (just with my hands of course). He then grabbed and "disarmed" me, and locked me into an ineffective position in a split second. I think he prefers to go back to the retention position (as Paul defined it). I shall have to ask him more later.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Skunk,

I'll see if I can get some pics done this evening for you.

Drawstroke, Retention and chest ready, OK?

Damon,

No problem.

Pipsqueak,

Like most things the position has its pros & cons. You have to weigh them and decide for yourself what makes the most sense for you.

Here's a link to the thread Skunk was referring to on Ready Positions:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39784

Picture #5 is the chest ready that we're talking about here, I believe.

 

[YammyMonkey]

What I was trying to describe is similar to #5, except it is a Weaver-based stance, strong arm held tight to the side of the body, elbow a little past your back, forearm at a 30 degree angle up, slide at about the 3/4 pec position gun about 1/2 way between middle of chest and nipple. Support hand tucked tight to body, forearm running up just under your pec, elbow tucked into your side.

If it helps, think pic #5, weaver stance, and bring your hands in close to the body.

I'd post a pic, but my digital camera decided to go on strike after I dropped it in the ocean.:banghead:

 

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Whatever stance, postion or degree of weapons presentation you use, you must be able to shoot from it...

FIST-FIRE is designed so we can shoot from virtually any position where we can INDEX the gun. We can shoot accurately from Retention, Guard, Side Guard, varying degrees of partial extension all the way out to Full Extension and EVERYWHERE in between without any limitations.

Here's a link to a video showing some POINT SHOOTING (from Partial & Full Extension without any sights on the handgu WHILE MOVING) and Retention Shooting form the basic Fist-Fire Guard position.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-6845522687814971085&hl=en

NOTE: When the BLACK screen appears, just click on the button in the lower left corner and it should download and play automatically and rather quickly.

Take care,

D.R. Middlebrooks

www.TacticalShooting.com

 

[Specialized]

The Tactical Defense Institute (TDI) in Ohio teaches it, if I remember correctly, for its retention qualities as well as the fact that you can shoot from it (indexing relatively well) quickly if necessary.

 

[PoPo22]

Retention

We taught this on our dept.'s Tac-Team about 9 or 10 years ago, primarily for entries. It is more effective for CQC and entering doors where you can't be certain if anyones on the other side. Helps avoid someone grabbing your weapon when you round a corner or go through a door.

Accuracy was pretty good from "retention", and it does allow one to extend and be on target more quickly, IMHO. When wearing heavy vest and a lot of gear, it allows one to rest the weapon at the solar plexus and the arms on the sides of the vest/torso. We primarily used Iso stance, which allowed quicker and easier lateral movement to either side. I'm not preaching any particular stance, this is just what we chose.
Good Luck