Pointers on shooting from retention

[FriedRice]

I have recently changed my presentation to include an option to shoot from a retention position. I have dry fired a good sequence into my muscle memory. I went live with it today at an empty range. I was unhappy with my performance. It's been awhile since I've been on this forum and there are some issues that are different for me than the average armed citizen that factor into my choices. I'll describe the sequence, a little background and where I ran into problems. I'd appreciate some help. All of this includes the preface "yes, I understand a live class is superior to internet advice."

I am female. Through a long series of trial and error, I have settled on a Kahr K9, in a Remora holster, AIWB, tucked under a belly band, high hip. Presentation looks like this:

1. Weak hand lifts shirt.
2. Weak hand drops to secure belly band, pulls waistband down with a yank so grip is fully exposed. At the same time, strong hand grabs gun in master grip.
3. Strong hand rotates gun right out of holster to retention position (halfway between waist and bust). Strong arm tight against side but elbow back pretty far so gun is close to my body but slightly in front of it.
4. Hands meet at high ready and establish grip (if I haven't fired already from retention)
5. Push out to full extension while taking up the trigger travel for the first shot.
6. Align sights at full extension.

I stopped at #3 today and sent some shots downrange from there. My target was at 7 yards. I missed it entirely. My wrist hurts. Wrist angle is entirely different from retention.

The only good news is that when I carried it all the way through to 6, and put 2 COM and 1 head, it was fast and accurate.

I don't want to modify my retention position too much. It still needs to fit into my entire presentation through shooting at full extension. However, I need to hit the target, somewhere .

Any tips on aiming from #3, both some kind of practice at home and at the range? Because of how I carry and present, I need an empty range to practice, so I don't get the chance very often. That practice needs to really count.

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Edited to add: pictures on page 2

 

[JoeSlomo]

I stopped at #3 today and sent some shots downrange from there. My target was at 7 yards. I missed it entirely.

That's not surprising in the least bit at that range, as you are basically hip shooting, which is not the easiest technique to use. I can't hip shoot for squat much beyond retention range, and it is not something I would train as I prefer to use my sights whenever possible.

Retention shooting techniques are meant to be used up close where the potential of a gun grab exists, and 7M, imo, is not the range to train at. Try your technique again, but up CLOSE, within arms reach of your target, and you will start to get your hits. Remember that you are trying to gain separation while shooting from retention, so incorporate movement and transitioning to extension into your training.

 

[FriedRice]

Thank you, JoeSlomo. Good points and you've reminded me that I'm a perfectionist. Once I can get outside, I will incorporate movement and put the target right in front of me. I can't miss that way. Please correct me if you see a flaw in my thinking but if my time to presentation and first shot at full extension from deep concealment is 2.5 seconds, doesn't the potential for a gun grab exist at 7 yards?

 

[bbuddtec]

Just thinking about it, I feel perhaps worth trying swinging further to strong side retention, til your forearm is lined up behind the gun, still in retention, best I got right now

 

[JellyJar]

What would you do if your weak hand/arm is either engaged in fending off an attack (knife/other) and/or is disabled?

I only practice one hand draws in case I only have one hand available.

 

[FriedRice]

Good question, Jelly Jar. Probably, I'm going to learn to do something useful with my left hand. Perhaps some scrappy hits to the trachea, open palm hit upward, under the jaw, or build in some knife skills. If I have no choice, prior to #3, fend with the left hand and dig down and draw with the right, then shoot from retention. I can do it, and I will practice it, but it's much slower. Maybe 2-3 seconds slower. If my left hand is free up to #3, do some damage.

That's the next level for me of real life defensive work. I'm hoping with situational awareness I will have two hands. But...such is life. I've tried dozens of concealment rigs and several different pistols. None offer a one handed quick draw from concealment for a person with curves. I either print, or I put the gun somewhere I don't want it or can't conceal it, like behind the hip or on the ankle.

 

[bratch]

By definition a gun grab has to be at contact distance. The times I have shot from retention in classes I have been physically touching the target.

If the threat starts at 7 yards and by the time you get your gun out is at contact distance stay at retention if they are not at contact go to a two handed full extension stance. You need to be fluid in your movements so you can go from retention to extension and back and forth. You may need to engage multiple threats, one at contact and one at distance, you wouldn't engage both from the same position.

My retention position is at the edge of my pec. The butt of the pistol is against my ribs and the gun is rotated at 45* away from my body. My strong side elbow is straight back. My weak side hand is holding the back of my head with my weak side elbow straight forward in a defensive position.

 

[newbuckeye]

I agree....start at less than arms length. With more practice you can add distance out to the 7 yard line. Watch where your muzzle is when firing like bratch described. I burned a hole in a uniform shirt because I didn't tip the gun away.

 

[FriedRice]

I was thinking over Bratch's response. I did it in the mirror. It makes sense. Before I left today, I did start rolling the pistol out 45 degrees because it seemed like a good idea. I couldn't tell if it was working better because the target was still at 7 yards. I did move back and forth from retention to extension. That went well. Now, about the wrist pain. What's up with that? Any ideas?

 

[JoeSlomo]

Please correct me if you see a flaw in my thinking but if my time to presentation and first shot at full extension from deep concealment is 2.5 seconds, doesn't the potential for a gun grab exist at 7 yards?

Yes and no.

I understand your intent, and agree that the potential to close the distance from 7Y to get within gun grab range may exist before you can bring your gun to bear. However, by making marksmanship assessments at 7Y, you are not getting accurate feedback about the actual effectiveness of your live fire technique, and may be looking to solve "problems" that don't exist as a result. Those rounds you threw off target at 7Y, may have been right where they needed to be up close at retention range.

2 simple approaches to work the transitions: Start from 7Y away, draw, and engage from extension while slowly walking toward your target, transition to a 2 hand retention as you close the distance, and finish with a one hand retention at bad breath range. Holster, run it again starting with the one hand retention at bad breath range, and move back. Repeat as needed.

Good luck, train hard, and train safe.

 

[bratch]

Wrist should be the same at retention or at extension.

Try this start with your gun at extension pull it back to your strong side under your arm pit. Put the butt against your side towards the front of your body and rotate it 45*. Your wrist should stay locked and straight. By having your elbow directly behind you your forearm should be in a straight line with your elbow and wrist very little should change from the elbow to gun from retention to extension.

Here is a drill you can do to work on going from retention to extension. Start at contact with a target and your gun at retention. Fire a burst from retention into the target (stomach and pelvic hits are the most common don't worry about getting thoracic zone hits) step back and continue to fire (now into the thoracic) while moving away from the target until firing from full extension. You can finish with a head shot if so desired. If this is new to you do it dry several times and then go very slow until you are comfortable with the movements. After working the drill until you are comfortable with it you can add drawing from the holster but I would start at retention.

 

[FriedRice]

Bratch, JoeSlomo, thanks for the tips. I'm going to watch myself in the mirror with the draw again and see what is happening with my wrist at the retention position. I'd picked a lower retention position to clear my "pecs" but if I roll the pistol out 45 degrees then I might be okay with a high pec position. That may straighten out the wrist issue.

Good drills. Now I need to find a place to do them.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The forty-five degree outboard cant works for a lot of people, and helps ensure your slide will clear clothing and your body when the pistol cycles.

I agree with the guys who're suggesting trying your shooting from retention at much closer range -- try two meters. First, it may give you some clues as to where you're putting the rounds at seven meters and, second, it's a lot closer to where retention shooting usually takes place. With practice hits from retention at seven meters shouldn't be overly difficult on a torso sized target.

Probably, I'm going to learn to do something useful with my left hand. Perhaps some scrappy hits to the trachea, open palm hit upward, under the jaw, or build in some knife skills.

Arrows in the quiver are good, but for shooting from retention, the offhand-shields-head posture described up thread is good. On the flat range shooting yourself accidentally is obviously bad form to be avoided -- that stance keeps extremities out of the line of fire and would provide you some real protection if things go hands on. In a real fight you may be using your free hand to create space or time for finishing your pistol draw but even then I'd try to get your hand and arm pulled back when it's time to pull the trigger. Shooting yourself in the hand or arm when it's for real would tend to be even worse form than on the flat range . . .

 

[FriedRice]

HorseSoldier, I'm pondering on the weak arm work for now. If things go hands on, 2.5 seconds is an eternity. For now, I've been resting the weak hand high abdomen, clenched fist until I get the shooting from retention down. Weak hand work prior to extension is maybe 5 steps away from where I'm at now. I also don't want to be so focused on THE GUN that I forget I'm in a fight for my life. Know what I mean? The presentation is useful if I blank out but so is flexibility and adaptation. I had another very experienced shooter share that it is easier to disarm people when they are hyper-focused on the gun, instead of the fight.

What is this weak arm off hands shields up posture for, other than keeping from shooting my weak hand? Is your elbow out to be used defensively? Before I change my presentation to include that, rather than clenched fist, I'd need to think through and see if it would work for me as a female. You guys have much stronger upper body strength and are usually taller. Do you guys mind indulging me around this point and explaining a little further so I can think through weak hand placement before I teach it to my muscles?

Again..I know a class...it's coming.

 

[bratch]

Elbow out hand behind your head as a defensive position does a couple things.

First its covers the left side of your head and ear from blows. Since the majority of the world is right handed and will fight with their dominant hand getting hit on the left side of your head is a pretty good chance.

The elbow forward will act as a distance maker. If they try to crash into you they can run into it if they don't go low.

This technique should work fine for you as a woman. There is no strength involved other than holding your elbow up. You are not actively striking with it, the strikes that occur are usually powered by the attacker running into it.

From reading your various description of your draw stroke I would try to move everything up 6-8" if possible. My ready/retention position (non firing) is high center of chest/clavicle directly under my chin. My support hand is above/on my right pec with my index finger above my clavicle in the soft spot next to my neck during my draw. the support hand and gun meet at the high center chest to begin my press out.

 

[Bix]

That went well. Now, about the wrist pain. What's up with that? Any ideas?

I'm no expert, but I recently took a class that focused heavily on retention shooting (Southnarc's ECQC). It was emphasized that the wrist should be locked and the pistol's slide in line with the bones of the forearm when in a good retention position.

This is important for a number of reasons - significantly, that it helps establish a consistent, repeatable firing platform. That is, when you hit your retention position and feel those kinesthetic reference points, you know very well where your rounds will go -- and what is or is not in the line of fire.

I've taken classes from a good number of schools, including several classes that taught retention shooting. I've not seen anyone with a better take on this material than Southnarc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_pi0WIrho

 

[FriedRice]

That shivworks video is where I started in reworking my presentation. I wound up with two problems. With the retention position that high, I don't clear the bust from the side. Also, when I move to a high ready from there, again, problems with the bust. It was a very good place to start from but it appeared to be scripted for a completely different body shape.

The high retention position left me with the pistol pointing downward. If my BG happens to be 6 foot tall, it looked like I'd be missing the torso entirely. Just from the video, it appears to be designed for people of equal height.

I could potentially roll the pistol out 45 degrees at a position that high but we will see how that affects the wrist when I start shooting rounds from there.

Anybody seen or done a class like this with a short, busty woman? I'd be interested to know if she had to modify as well.

Bratch, thanks for the explanation.

 

[Bix]

FriedRice - PM sent.

 

[FriedRice]

I ran it through in front of the mirror with a much higher retention position. It reminded me why I modified the position. It is physically impossible for me to get my elbow back, arm against my body, pistol not too far in front from up that high. I either need to wing my elbow out and screw up the wrist angle, or put the pistol much too far in front of me for good retention. I ran into this in pilates as well. There is something about the articulation of my scapula, shoulder, and thoracic spine that does not allow a position such as this. I dropped to the highest position I could get, keeping the elbow in, indexing the thumb against my body, pistol in close.

I'll try and get my office partner to snap some pics today if I can so you can better help me tweak. This is the point at which many people helping me get frustrated and give up. My body has limitations. It's going to require some creativity and patience to work it through. I'll thank you in advance.

 

[bratch]

Are you indexing your thumb against your body in your retention position that you are firing from?

When I fire from retention the pinkie finger side of my hand is against my side, my palm is facing up and my thumb is away from my body.

 

[FriedRice]

Bratch, no I am not. The gun is slightly forward of my body in this lower position. If it back it up to index the thumb, I wind up with a bent wrist. When I think about what I was doing at the range, after the wrist pain, I tried a couple of things. I tried dropping my right shoulder a bit to straighten out the wrist and bring the gun closer in. I also tried rolling the pistol out 45 degrees. More people came into the range at that point and it became unsafe to shoot this way anymore, so I had to stop.

 

[FriedRice]

Sorry, I realize I said I was indexing the thumb before. But that was just a few times and it didn't work out. Running it through in front of the mirror showed me that I am not indexing the thumb. The gun is too far in front to do that.

 

[Uteridge]

HorseSoldier, I'm pondering on the weak arm work for now. If things go hands on, 2.5 seconds is an eternity. For now, I've been resting the weak hand high abdomen, clenched fist until I get the shooting from retention down. Weak hand work prior to extension is maybe 5 steps away from where I'm at now. I also don't want to be so focused on THE GUN that I forget I'm in a fight for my life. Know what I mean? The presentation is useful if I blank out but so is flexibility and adaptation. I had another very experienced shooter share that it is easier to disarm people when they are hyper-focused on the gun, instead of the fight.

What is this weak arm off hands shields up posture for, other than keeping from shooting my weak hand? Is your elbow out to be used defensively? Before I change my presentation to include that, rather than clenched fist, I'd need to think through and see if it would work for me as a female. You guys have much stronger upper body strength and are usually taller. Do you guys mind indulging me around this point and explaining a little further so I can think through weak hand placement before I teach it to my muscles?

Again..I know a class...it's coming.

FriedRice, yes the position of the weak hand that you described is simply to keep from shooting yourself, although it does mimic some defensive postures that you can use to protect your head/neck. There are much more effective ways to defend yourself with your off hand but it is not safe to practice them in live fire. Retention work requires significant dry fire practice in order to make sure you are prepared if you need to do it; just practicing the shooting aspect on the live fire range won't cut it.

I do have a few suggestions and will probably have more when I get to a computer that I can see any posted pictures on:

7 yards is too far. Retention is contact distance; practice no farther away than you can touch the target with your hand extended.

I use a 45 degree cant with my magwell basically on my strong side hip, a little higher if I am aiming for the upper chest which I normally don't do.

The point of shooting from retention is because you are locked in a hand to hand fight and can't extend your weapon without the risk of having it taken away. Your #1 priority is to retain your gun while getting solid hits. Your #2 priority is to get out of contact distance.

A great way to get out of contact distance is to shoot lower into the pelvic area of your opponent in an attempt to de-mobilized them you can step outside of contact distance.

Find something useful to do with your weak hand and practice it in dry fire. A good striking move is to attack the neck of your opponent with your weak hand. A good defensive move, and much easier to do for someone who is not as heavily trained in hand to hand, is to simply put your hand in the face of your attacker and try to hold them back at arms length. You can use your fingers to scratch, claw, or punch into your attackers eyes; this tends to be very effective in buying you enough space and time to do what you need to do (access your gun or flee) in a fight. Fighting hand to hand is not pretty and it requires that you be as violent and aggressive as you possibly can. If someone is attacking me to the point that I need to fire from retention, my fingers will be in their eye sockets...survival isn't pretty but it beats the heck out of dying.

 

[FriedRice]

As I break this high retention position down more and more, I am beginning to see the problem. And I don't believe it can be fixed. It's the opposite of a "winged" scapula. My scapula on both sides is locked down against the ribcage on both sides. Thinking back, even as a child gymnast, there were some movements I could not do because of this. In other areas, I'm hyper-flexible, but my scapula is locked against my ribcage. Anybody in the gun world ever seen this? I'm thinking I'm going to need some people locally to help me come up with a next best solution, a different retention position that allows for reduced risk of gun grab, safety, and locked arm and wrist. It is essential that I be able to shoot from retention. It's way more important, IMO, for self defense than shooting at extension.

Uteridge, thanks for thinking about the weak hand work. When I get there, I have no problem with being as brutal/effective as possible. If I'm grappling, I might only get one hit, so it better be at least a stunning one. Nothing is better than a blind attacker.

 

[autospike]

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