El Tejon
Member
Mike, O.K. then, citation (same for me, but understand different for you). I believe the citation was out of line, but citations like this create gun fund and gun skul training money for defense attorneys. 
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insidious_calm
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2004
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- 337
Another shining example of....
....law enforcement in America. I'm telling you folks, the best fiction writers couldn't write reality this good. Don't worry though, some statist thug types will be along shortly to defend the indefensible.
I.C.
....law enforcement in America. I'm telling you folks, the best fiction writers couldn't write reality this good. Don't worry though, some statist thug types will be along shortly to defend the indefensible.
I.C.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I think the police may have just overreacted a tad here. But I definitely believe that the instructor should have been warned to stop his 'class' and take it to somewhere private and secluded in the future.
But, there is a problem with realistic replica guns. I had a plastic Uzi pulled on me one night by an employee in very low light. As he brought it up, I swept it with my left hand while stepping to the right and drawing. I was bringing my pistol up to fire when I realized that the inertia of the Uzi was way too low and that it was plastic. If I had not made physcial contact with the fake Uzi...I would have gone for slide lock.
I was on friendly terms with the employee but no one will point a weapon at me without a response. I won't give anyone a justifiable reason to do so.
I don't like toy guns that are not obviously toy guns. Playing with them can get you killed by someone who is not playing.
But, there is a problem with realistic replica guns. I had a plastic Uzi pulled on me one night by an employee in very low light. As he brought it up, I swept it with my left hand while stepping to the right and drawing. I was bringing my pistol up to fire when I realized that the inertia of the Uzi was way too low and that it was plastic. If I had not made physcial contact with the fake Uzi...I would have gone for slide lock.
I was on friendly terms with the employee but no one will point a weapon at me without a response. I won't give anyone a justifiable reason to do so.
I don't like toy guns that are not obviously toy guns. Playing with them can get you killed by someone who is not playing.
280PLUS
Member
Lets get it straight, was it "kicks" , "kids" or "CATS" that were fast as lightning???
One of the great mysteries of life I tell ya!
One of the great mysteries of life I tell ya!
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Mike, had it been at night, I could understand the concern for all involved, from those making the 911 call to the responding officers.
But the newspaper article said "afternoon". To me, that's broad daylight. Now, I'll make the assumption that at a formal karate class, all are dressed in costume. Built in to the newspaper article and the followup letters is the idea that this is not at all a new event for this dojo.
The total package, assuming that the article is anywhere near correct, says to me that it was serious over-reaction.
I dunno. If I see a bunch of kids in karate costume, at or behind their school in broad daylight, I'm not gonna immediately assume gang war. That just doesn't compute.
Sure, "there may be more to it," but it's not evident from the spate of letters supportive of the dojo and its instructor. No further explanatory material from other sources...
Art
But the newspaper article said "afternoon". To me, that's broad daylight. Now, I'll make the assumption that at a formal karate class, all are dressed in costume. Built in to the newspaper article and the followup letters is the idea that this is not at all a new event for this dojo.
The total package, assuming that the article is anywhere near correct, says to me that it was serious over-reaction.
I dunno. If I see a bunch of kids in karate costume, at or behind their school in broad daylight, I'm not gonna immediately assume gang war. That just doesn't compute.
Sure, "there may be more to it," but it's not evident from the spate of letters supportive of the dojo and its instructor. No further explanatory material from other sources...
Art
thorn726
Member
airsoft is becoming an issue
this stuff is happening too often. the airsoft stuff looks so real, after years of conditioning society that toy guns are big crazy colored super soaker type things, suddenly these imitation weapons look too real.
add in police being so nervous all the time, we have these ridiculous laws about playing with guns.
stupid gang kids are the blame here, and sadly we all take the hit because the cops HAVE to be nervous. they can't be sure it isnt real.
it would be nice if at least like several airsoft games that have ended in police= the players should warn neighbors, same with the class= or at least use a brgihtly colored weapn so it looks fake.
but at the same time= the people in sacramento for example who call cops because they see an large invasion of teens with guns- i tend to think five seconds of extra looknig at these kids, they would have figrued out it was a game.
people are a little too nervous.
this stuff is happening too often. the airsoft stuff looks so real, after years of conditioning society that toy guns are big crazy colored super soaker type things, suddenly these imitation weapons look too real.
add in police being so nervous all the time, we have these ridiculous laws about playing with guns.
stupid gang kids are the blame here, and sadly we all take the hit because the cops HAVE to be nervous. they can't be sure it isnt real.
it would be nice if at least like several airsoft games that have ended in police= the players should warn neighbors, same with the class= or at least use a brgihtly colored weapn so it looks fake.
but at the same time= the people in sacramento for example who call cops because they see an large invasion of teens with guns- i tend to think five seconds of extra looknig at these kids, they would have figrued out it was a game.
people are a little too nervous.
Joejojoba111
Member
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- Mar 7, 2005
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- 1,056
"In each of these threads is an assertion (IMHO correct) by a one of your "antis" on THR stating that if someone pointed a fake/toy gun at them and they were CCWing, that person would probably be shot. No mention of robbery. FWIW, I agree.
I'm mostly upset that I cannot find one thread that had several comments like that on it."
There is a big difference between someone running up to you and pointing a gun at you, and a group of people doing their own thing and YOU running up and pointing a gun at them. If only I had L337 hacker skills I could use slashdot language to draw a picture. Alas, I do not, so I will re-iterate. In one case, the case the thread is about and I clearly mentioned, some people are minding their own business and YOU assault them. In the other case, which I clearly described as NOT being what this thread was about, someone with a toy gun assaults you. You on them, them on you. It's really a waste of time to have to defend against an argument that I never even made, nay that I clearly espoused against making. If you keep up with this 'Someone ran up and pointed a toy gun at me' notion I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but that's just how I read it.
And btw, for kicks, the thread where several people agreed they would shoot a kid with a toy gun was not about airsoft, but NERF.
I'm mostly upset that I cannot find one thread that had several comments like that on it."
There is a big difference between someone running up to you and pointing a gun at you, and a group of people doing their own thing and YOU running up and pointing a gun at them. If only I had L337 hacker skills I could use slashdot language to draw a picture. Alas, I do not, so I will re-iterate. In one case, the case the thread is about and I clearly mentioned, some people are minding their own business and YOU assault them. In the other case, which I clearly described as NOT being what this thread was about, someone with a toy gun assaults you. You on them, them on you. It's really a waste of time to have to defend against an argument that I never even made, nay that I clearly espoused against making. If you keep up with this 'Someone ran up and pointed a toy gun at me' notion I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but that's just how I read it.
And btw, for kicks, the thread where several people agreed they would shoot a kid with a toy gun was not about airsoft, but NERF.
YES. But it STILL doesn't amount to 'disturbing the peace' in my view. Having said that, it WOULD be a good idea to paint the gun red in the future. They should NOT have to notify police each and every time they have a class, because it is pretty obvious what is going on from the totality of the circumstances - absurd!
KriegHund
Member
Its "Those cats..." Apperently. (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/kungfufightinglyrics.html)
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing
They were funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down
It's an ancient Chineese art and everybody knew their part
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing
There was funky Billy Chin and little Sammy Chung
He said here comes the big boss, lets get it on
We took a bow and made a stand, started swinging with the hand
The sudden motion made me skip now we're into a brand knew trip
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they did it with expert timing
(repeat)..make sure you have expert timing
Kung-fu fighting, had to be fast as lightning
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing
They were funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down
It's an ancient Chineese art and everybody knew their part
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing
There was funky Billy Chin and little Sammy Chung
He said here comes the big boss, lets get it on
We took a bow and made a stand, started swinging with the hand
The sudden motion made me skip now we're into a brand knew trip
Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they did it with expert timing
(repeat)..make sure you have expert timing
Kung-fu fighting, had to be fast as lightning
Randy in Arizona
Member
To the Albany, Oregon Police Department Administration, Trainers, and officers involved in this incident:
Here's your sign!
(It's a link!)
Here's your sign!
(It's a link!)
KriegHund
Member
LOL!
I remember someone did that on comedy central, jeff foxworthy i think...
I remember someone did that on comedy central, jeff foxworthy i think...
You were there?
The whole point is that we (the readers) don't know what "the totality of the circumstances" was. All we know is that we had a bunch of people in an alley playing with airsoft guns. This could range from:
A. A bunch of scruffy looking numbskulls in an alley yelling and fighting and waving around a perfectly crafted replica weapon, which to any reasonable passing observer looked exactly like a robbery, and upon arrival of the Popo immediately became argumentative and confronational and refused to desist, thus prompting the citations just to get them to stop making a scene and blocking a public street
to
B. A well disciplined group of clean-cut young gentlemen in pressed gis standing at attention and taking turns doing clearly stylized weapon disarms in the rear parking lot of a clearly marked martial arts school, who were immediately polite and respectful to the nice cops, and were puzzled at why they were given tickets
and all points in between.
Which was it? No clue. We all want to assume that it more closely resembled the latter, but there is really not any basis for doing so that I have seen thus far. Indeed, if anything, the fact that they were cited should lead an impartial observer to think that maybe it resembled the former a weebit more than the latter example. Thinking that the cops are automatically wrong does, however, fit our stereotype of just imagining the police rolling around looking for some fun to kill.
I'll be up front about wondering why they (especially the students) were cited, but I have a strong suspicion (a personal bias, I will admit) that there's a bit more to this story. But I'll refrain from passing judgment either way until I have more facts.
We get plenty of armed robberies in daylight, too. You're more likely to find a taxpayer with something to steal in the day.
I agree, that doesn't compute. However, you're trading one assumption for another:
A. The cop was a bonehead, and it looked like a karate class.
B. The cop was spot-on, and it didn't look like a karate class.
Really, that only explains the primary response, though. Once you have sorted it through, determined that this is, in fact, a class...why proceed with the cite? I'm interested to hear that side of it.
Also, if you get anything at all from my posts about my experience as an officer, get this: The article has it wrong. Not necessarily this article, I mean in general. Whatever version of events you are reading online, in print, or watching on TV, is critically flawed in at least one (probably several) way(s). This goes double for the first run-through in the media of any given event.
Mike
I think we need to go back to the original quote one more time.
Well, seeing as how we were, in fact, discussing a hypothetical scenario where a CCWing passerby thinks he has a gun pointed at him by one of a group of people in an alley (read: "someone ... pointing a gun at you"), I would say it is you who is being deliberately obtuse by trying to turn the conversation to some other scenario. The point that the PD spokesman was trying to make was that someone (cop, citizen) wandering by might be muzzle-swept or inadvertantly pointed at and take potentially fatal offense. You said that was pure Anti hogwash. I provided statements from decidedly non-antis that it was not hogwash (statements with which I pretty much agree, BTW), but a rather real concern.
yes, the "running up to" part is absent, but also not really required to reach the potentially fatal nexus of method/threat/opportunity.
Mike
Thats a pretty broad assumption considering that formal Karate has NO provision for firearms whatsoever, and that the training they were conducting included more than one.
Its far more likely that it was a Krav Maga class, which according to KravMaga.com, is taught at the facility in question. (Turner's Taekwondo Inc.)This discipline makes extensive use of firearms, and as far as i know, the industry standard is to use the "red guns" that are typically used by law enforcement training. This is for good reason since the firearms are utilized as bludgeons, and airsoft replicas could easily be broken by such use. More to the point, its a lot less likely for the cops to show up when your training with bright red guns made of rubber.
http://www.kravmaga.com/oregon.asp
I dont think that there is any uniform that goes with Krav Maga, in fact i think street clothes is the normal atire.
Joejojoba111
Member
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- 1,056
I give, time short, no argue.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I'll go with Coronach until we know more. It sounds like the cops overreacted thus far. But we all know how reporters are.
That said, anyone who takes realistic replica guns into a public setting needs to have their 'stupid' signs prominently displayed.
I'm not a cop. If you point one at me; I'll shoot you. I won't yell,"Is that a real gun." I'll apologize profusely once I find out that it was Airsoft. That might not do you a whole lot of good.
That said, anyone who takes realistic replica guns into a public setting needs to have their 'stupid' signs prominently displayed.
I'm not a cop. If you point one at me; I'll shoot you. I won't yell,"Is that a real gun." I'll apologize profusely once I find out that it was Airsoft. That might not do you a whole lot of good.
To reiterate, I'm leaning towards the side of "was it really necessary to cite them?" as well. I'm just not 1. convinced and 2. thinking that even if it wasn't really needed that this is an act of complete stupidity on the cops' part. Playing with look-alike guns in public is not terribly swift, so there might be stupidity enough to go around.
Mike
Mike
ctdonath
Member
I'm thinking it was an overreaction, but not by much. The group was OUTSIDE the dojo, performing relatively violent maneuvers with (at a quick uninformed glance) apparently deadly weapons. We know it was (to us) obviously Airsoft toys, handled by (assuming in-costume) (to us) obviously in-training people, and (to us) obviously not a problem ... actually a "hey, can I join in?" kind of fun. Unfortunately, most of the population is so ignorant and spooked of such things, especially when going on in an alley (refuge of violent acts), that a cop should at least check it out and suggest they take it back to the dojo. At most there should be a stern "don't scare the sheeple" warning. Arrest & charges are too far.
Joejojoba111
Member
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Umm what about the whole "no crime committed but they're not allowed to do it anyway because the Grand-Poohba says so" issue?
Ignoring the other issues for sake of simplicity, is this not significant alone?
If stuff like this happens, and no SEVERE measures are taken, then it will happen and happen some more and happen even more. It's like any other substance abuse problem, it starts out controlled, and then escalates until it is beyond complete recovery. First one completely legal activity becomes 'disturbance' and then another, and before you can say 'supercalafragilist-' you question every tiny action you do, things that used to be insignificant, for fear that any number of watching eyes could 'report you'.
There's two agents, the 'loyal citizens' and the dutiful police, the first are to be expected, the second need to be reminded to whom their duty lies - oh wait, it lies to the legislators who happen to cater to the 'loyal citizens'. Great.
I for one am against the 'they'll report you' constant state of fear type of existence, it doesn't sound fun to me. And it is going beyond common courtesy and consideration for others.
10 year olds playing with cap guns in the park - 'Comrade Sniktchov' reports them.
20 year olds practicing martial arts with replica weapons - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
30 year olds shooting varmints with a permit on their property - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
40 year olds growing small marijuana plants in their basements - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
Too many people gathered on a street corner for too long - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
(in no particular order)
And through it all a loving government croons and caresses their best citizens, who hand more power to enforce more laws requiring more resources in an endless cycle.
When things like the article happen it makes me angry, probably not in a focused way. It's just that it indicates yet another progression towards the absolute worst type of society to live in.
Ignoring the other issues for sake of simplicity, is this not significant alone?
If stuff like this happens, and no SEVERE measures are taken, then it will happen and happen some more and happen even more. It's like any other substance abuse problem, it starts out controlled, and then escalates until it is beyond complete recovery. First one completely legal activity becomes 'disturbance' and then another, and before you can say 'supercalafragilist-' you question every tiny action you do, things that used to be insignificant, for fear that any number of watching eyes could 'report you'.
There's two agents, the 'loyal citizens' and the dutiful police, the first are to be expected, the second need to be reminded to whom their duty lies - oh wait, it lies to the legislators who happen to cater to the 'loyal citizens'. Great.
I for one am against the 'they'll report you' constant state of fear type of existence, it doesn't sound fun to me. And it is going beyond common courtesy and consideration for others.
10 year olds playing with cap guns in the park - 'Comrade Sniktchov' reports them.
20 year olds practicing martial arts with replica weapons - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
30 year olds shooting varmints with a permit on their property - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
40 year olds growing small marijuana plants in their basements - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
Too many people gathered on a street corner for too long - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
(in no particular order)
And through it all a loving government croons and caresses their best citizens, who hand more power to enforce more laws requiring more resources in an endless cycle.
When things like the article happen it makes me angry, probably not in a focused way. It's just that it indicates yet another progression towards the absolute worst type of society to live in.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Joejo, I'd see it as no more than common courtesy to the communty at large if the replica guns were painted red, or some such easily-told way of distinguishing them from the real thing. It would be along the same line for the instructor(s) to have a few portable signs of "Martial Arts Classes In Session" or some such...
Look: When I go out at night varmint hunting, I don't mind calling our local deputy so he can ease folks' minds if they call in, thinking that poaching is going on. Common courtesy.
Same deal for the dojo and the local cops: Inform them of the usual schedule of outdoor training. Common courtesy.
Art
Look: When I go out at night varmint hunting, I don't mind calling our local deputy so he can ease folks' minds if they call in, thinking that poaching is going on. Common courtesy.
Same deal for the dojo and the local cops: Inform them of the usual schedule of outdoor training. Common courtesy.
Art
RocketMan
Member
I have to live here in Albany.
It's not a bad little town, actually, but there are lots of sirens at night...
It's not a bad little town, actually, but there are lots of sirens at night...
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Well, Hammerhead (nicknamed by his own father for his hard headedness), froze up and gurgled. He was trying to scream and talk at the same time. Couldn't do it. It was only about a second for the whole thing. By the time he really realized I was about to shoot him...I'd realized the Uzi was a fake. Darn fool knew I was armed, too. I let him take care of his personal hygiene on his own.
I've got a good friend that needs a stupid sign for junk like that. He likes to creep into hunt camp past midnight, jump into the cabin, and scream like a banshee or some such. I've warned him that the night that I fail to recognize him is the night that I shoot him multiple times. He keeps on doing it.
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