School violates mans rights in fear of another massacre...

[Danus ex]

With a 4.2 GPA, the kid should have been smart enough to know better.

Rubbish. Constantly thinking and talking in a politically correct manner is the very opposite of intelligence.

I don't deny that some threats should be taken seriously. However, taking any threat seriously would require a degree of investigation into the matter--investigation that if undertaken, would have quickly revealed that this kid is sane, intelligent, and is indignantly pushing a social boundary he was keen enough to sense. Nothing to suspend over and certainly nothing that warrants persecution or prosecution.

It's bothersome that normally rational, intelligent adults responsible for teaching American children are behaving childishly. Lashing out at a student because he mentioned the boogeyman that the American social atmos-fear is currently panicking over violates not only common sense but the fundamentals of American freedom.

What happened might actually be the best thing for this young man. Hopefully, he'll question life's plan, and ask specifically why he would fight for a freedom he apparently does not have.

 

[Robert Hairless]

"as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first CG school shooting."

“At the very last sentence, I said that this teacher’s method of teaching could lead to a school shooting,” Lee, a senior at Cary-Grove High School, said Wednesday.

The statements you've quoted are not threats to shoot up a school, nor are they threats of any kind. What you cite are comments about a teacher's methods.

I don't know what the student actually wrote, only what was posted here. What I've read here was tasteless, immature, and so badly written that I find it hard to believe that the student was in some kind of academically advanced class.

The assignment itself, from the way it has been represented here, seems to have invited unpredictable inanities. A teacher who invites the unpredictable has no reason for objecting when he receives it. There's a game going on in that classroom and in that school, and it's not a game that should be tolerated.

It is unacceptable for a teacher to give students an assignment to "Write whatever comes into your mind" and instructions to "not censor or judge whatever you write," and then steamroller a student who trusted the teacher's assignment and instruction. Why should it shock anyone to learn that a high school student was much affected by the Virginia Tech murders that happened so recently.

Again, the student did not write "Dear Mr. Teach, I am going to shoot up this school because you inspired me to do it." Perhaps that form of expression might have been a threat, although to assume that it is shows complete ignorance of the epistolary tradition in literature. A writing teacher who does not know that tradition would perform a great service by going into another line of work.

I have no high opinion of that teacher or of that school.

 

[Geister]

I think you nailed it, Robert.

 

[Don Gwinn]

OK. So somebody at your place of work doesn't like the way you do your job, and he says to you "I have this fantasy that I came to work and shot everybody dead . . . . don't be surprised if you cause a mass shooting here at GenCorp."
And you don't consider that a threat, but a legitimate commentary on your professional methods?
I must say I disagree.

I don't deny that some threats should be taken seriously. However, taking any threat seriously would require a degree of investigation into the matter--investigation that if undertaken, would have quickly revealed that this kid is sane, intelligent, and is indignantly pushing a social boundary he was keen enough to sense. Nothing to suspend over and certainly nothing that warrants persecution or prosecution.

First, do you have actual knowledge that the kid is all right? There's no evidence in the article except that he got good grades in school and his friend likes him. Do you know this to be the case or are you assuming it must be so?
Second, if he's indignant about a social boundary, boo hoo. The boundary he tested in this case simply says "Don't try to be the big man by acting like you're going to copycat the worst school shooting in U.S. history." That's a good boundary.

I have no high opinion of that teacher or of that school.

Not very surprising or very relevant, since you presumably don't know anything about that teacher or that school except that they handled a situation in a way you don't like. You don't know what threats they've had to deal with, you don't know what they've seen from this kid in the past, and you don't know what this kid is capable of, despite your assumptions.
Feel free to correct me if you have some knowledge of this case beyond the articles posted and the essay Tecumseh shared.
Frankly your opinion of that teacher and school doesn't matter much unless it's an informed opinion.

 

[Crunker1337]

He should have gotten in trouble for the hit man speech, as he actually said which people he'd kill.

As for this one I don't see the reasoning - the teacher asked him to write about anything, and he did. Though I will say that he can't be all that smart, since it doesn't take a genius to know that this kind of thing is no longer tolerated in school.

 

[NukemJim]

The kid did what the teacher told him to do. What part of "do not judge or censor" from the instructions do you not understand?

I am serious. Read the instructions.

There was no threat to shoot up the school in the writing. I have told people at times that if they continue on a certain behaivour that they should not be surprisd if they get in trouble. I've frequently been correct (unfortunetly). How many times have people posted here that if the goverment continues on a certain policy that people will get killed. No-Knock warrants comes up frequently as well as land taken involuntarly from the owner.

The teacher asked the students to write anything and the kid did that.

If you want to talk to him fine. If you want to force him to see a shrink fine. Arrest him?

Insane.

NukemJim
PS I do not know, but I bet if we read some of the other papers that we would have reference to both other illegal and probably violent acts. I know if I was in such a class and given such a (IMHO) silly assignment I would have done something like that. NukemJim

 

[Beren]

Doc:

I think the key point here is that the instructions to the student were explicitly followed. He was told, explicitly, not to judge or censor his writings. Then he was judged for his writings by others.

 

[Al Norris]

Am I all alone here? I was not aware that the First Amendment covered a threat to shoot people. The student and the administration agree that he wrapped up his story by stating that, in the student's own words, "his teaching style might inspire someone to shoot up the school."

Why yes Don, I believe you are among the minority here. That is, unless you can convince me that the part you quoted (and I italicized) is a direct threat to anyone... As I read this quote, it is an opinion of the teachers style of teaching. Not a threat at all.

Now that we have the actual "essay" to read, how does, "No quarrel on you qualifications as a writer, but as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first cg shooting." imply a threat? It is still just an opinion.

Further, your referencing the quote and comparing it to telling his superiors that he would frag them, is disingenuous at best, apples and oranges, that is.

A problem to this kind of thinking is that it ignores the school officials own remarks: That the essay in question posed no direct threat to the students or the school: "It is important to stress that the essay did not contain any specific locations or names. We did not feel the safety of the students or the staff was compromised.” Spoken by Police Chief Ron Delelio.

And the criminal charge? Disorderly Conduct. Care to explain how this can be viewed as any kind of Disturbing the Peace violation, given the parameters of the Freestyle Writing assignment?

With a 4.2 GPA, the kid should have been smart enough to know better.

Give me a break! How many high school aged kids do you know that have the kind of common sense or self control that you seem to think this implies!?

Perfect example of a kid with near genius-level intelligence and not a shred of common sense.

Exactly. Ever read a Bio of Einstein? Hmm?

It is unacceptable for a teacher to give students an assignment to "Write whatever comes into your mind" and instructions to "not censor or judge whatever you write," and then steamroller a student who trusted the teacher's assignment and instruction. Why should it shock anyone to learn that a high school student was much affected by the Virginia Tech murders that happened so recently.

While I don't often agree with Robert, here he has nailed to the wall.

First, do you have actual knowledge that the kid is all right? There's no evidence in the article except that he got good grades in school and his friend likes him. Do you know this to be the case or are you assuming it must be so?

Right back atchya Don. Do you have any actual knowledge that the kid isn't all right? Do you know this to be the case or are you assuming that the kid must be a socio-psychopath?

When giving out a writing assignment with guidelines that specifically say there are no borders on the assignment, what else would one expect of High School students?

This is absolutely, Political Correctness gone awry. No "ifs." No "ands." No "buts."

 

[TCB in TN]

+1 Robert

The reaction to this is a great example of the piss poor combination of bad teaching and PC gone awry.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

The school even said they believed the kid posed no threat and that it was not threatening them.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Don, all I know about this situation is what was published in those articles. If you have special knowledge that is not in those articles, please share it. Until then I'll repeat that "I have no high opinion of that teacher or of that school."

You're right that I don't know anything about that teacher or that school except that they handled a situation in a way I don't like. Not only don't I like it, but also I consider it bad pedagogy and an educational disgrace. That's the good part. I think much worse of the police chief and his behavior. Indeed I don't know what threats they've had to deal with, I don't know what they've seen from this kid in the past, and I don't know what this kid is capable of, despite my assumptions.

One of my assumptions is that the newspaper article would have mentioned this student's history of the bad behavior you imply, if there had been any to mention. The article mentions only the student's writing and the police chief decided that the writing constituted disorderly conduct for which the student should be arrested because it made the teacher uncomfortable.

Another assumption of mine is that it's bad teaching to ask students to write whatever comes to their mind and instruct them not to censor or judge it, then use what they produce as a diagnostic for mental disorder. It's also treacherous and dishonest. There are differences between law enforcement and teaching, and between law enforcement officers and teachers, and educators who don't understand the difference would be far more useful in law enforcement than teaching creative writing or administering a high school.

Still another of my assumptions is that English teachers--whether at a high school or a university--are not trained psychologists capable of diagnosing mental disorders from one creative writing exercise. That's all the article mentioned. Any other "facts" is supposition based on nothing.

It should be obvious that the events at Virginia Tech are in the minds of everyone involved: the student, teacher, principal, police chief, and most people here. The distinction between this student and Cho, the Virginia Tech murderer, is that Cho had been diagnosed professionally as being mentally deranged and was adjudicated as such. This student either had no such history or it hasn't been revealed. You're correct in believing that I consider it dangerous to judge anyone by a single writing specimen produced in a creative writing course in response to this assignment. That way of thinking leads inevitably to the conclusion that mystery writers are murderers or thieves who should be arrested because of what they write. You arrest Donald Westlake for writing about crooks and murderers. I'll contribute to his bail if he needs financial assistance.

What the police chief said makes me extremely uncomfortable. I'll entertain the possibility of doing a citizens arrest of him for disorderly conduct but I doubt that it would withstand court scrutiny with any greater success than he will achieve there when this case comes to trial, as I hope it will.

 

[migoi]

Here is a situation I would be interested...

in hearing about how the folks here would handle.

The setting is a high school, approximately 1800 students. Graduating class to be around 440. There is a senior who is set to graduate in approximately 5 weeks.

During his 4 years at this high school he has been arrested and suspended numerous times for tagging (graffiti). Been arrested and suspended for telling a teacher "I'm going to give Dylan $100 to kill you." Numerous incidents of insubordination that resulted in various levels of discipline. Currently being allowed to remain on campus while an investigation is being held for attacking the security manager (was picked up on campus for cutting class, taken to security managers office, when told to sit down he lunged at the security manager yelling "You want to beef with me? I'll show you how to beef." He claims it was in self defense and the security manager attacked him (only marks on anyone were on the neck of the security manager). Since the security manager is a non-dept of ed, contracted employee the matter has been viewed as a possible civil rights violation claim and has to be investigated by an outside agency. We can't suspend him (regardless of the other two adult witness statements exonerating the security manager) until the investigation is complete (incident was about 4 weeks ago, outside agency has not interviewed anyone yet.)

Recently, during his social studies class, during a viewing/discussion of the VT shootings he made comments of "Cho's my hero." "That's so cool what he did." "I'll bet no one will ever forget him." In another class he has been making comments such as "No one will forget me after graduation." "I can't wait for graduation, it will be spectacular."

The question: Should he be allowed to participate in graduation? Exactly what would you do if you were the school officials in this case?

migoi

 

[Wesker]

I suppose the USMC is a great place for a freak that dreams of murdering people and having sex with their dead bodies.

Oh yea, 1st amendment blah blah.

 

[Joe Demko]

See, we have a math/writing initiative where I teach, so I spend a pretty fair amount of my working time assigning and reading essays of various kinds. Here's something I've noticed, when a kid writes something outre like that, it's usually one of two things:
1. The emotionally disturbed kids sometimes write some bizarre or shocking things because of their emotional problems.
2. "Normal" kids sometimes write some bizarre or shocking things trying to provoke a reaction from the teacher or get some attention.

I think the kid wanted attention. He got it. I don't see why he isn't happy.

 

[NukemJim]

I think the kid wanted attention. He got it. I don't see why he isn't happy.

He got insane overreaction. Sorta like going through a yellow/red light and without hitting anybody getting a 5 year jail sentance.

NukemJim
PS You know many people are commenting on how such a smart kid did such a dumb thing. I would like people to consider how the teacher of a group of smart kids is do dumb. NukemJim

 

[john paul]

in bad taste .. yes. free speech.... i would say so. you can see worse on the evening news

 

[Smokehouse]

Not necessarily a great kid, nor an intelligent writing prodigy(just my opinion and all I care to surmise given limited information). But this "teacher" is definately out of her depth. Maybe day care would be more suited to her aptitudes.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

In reference to post #48 and the rules of the essay:


All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.


Now, where's my 5.0?

 

[Snowdiver]

That way of thinking leads inevitably to the conclusion that mystery writers are murderers or thieves who should be arrested because of what they write. You arrest Donald Westlake for writing about crooks and murderers. I'll contribute to his bail if he needs financial assistance.

I too think he was carrying out the assignment and was getting in his dig as to the teachers qualifications. I read the paper as talking about what could happen in the future if the teacher continued with her practices. He was asked to write his thoughts with no censorship and got nailed for it. He did not say that he had a fantasy, he said a dream, there's a big difference. He will get off and he will learn to bite his tongue.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

How are they allowed to file misdameanor charges against him?

Like thats such a load of BS.



Whats happening?

 

[xd45gaper]

i got in a huge fight with my wife over this yesterday, she is a school teacher and told me this, you dont have freedom of speech in school!!! i almost threw her out the window. i told her last time i looked the first amendment didnt stop at the school zone sign, and the first amendment DID apply in school and we where not living in Nazi, Germany. this kid was arrested for nothing, i said what can they charge him with? creativity? doing his homework? granted what he said was a little crazy but that is no reason to arrest the kid.

 

[nico]

I suppose the USMC is a great place for a freak that wants to shoot assault weapons.

Oh yea, 2nd amendment blah blah.

Unless you're prepared to explain why the 2nd Amendment should be ignored because you don't like something someone legally does with a gun (say, CCW or self defense), or why some parts of the Bill of Rights should be ignored on occasion, I'd suggest rethinking your original statement.


migoi, your post demonstrates why this situation is so absurd. Plenty of school systems have kids like the one you describe, who really are disruptive and do pose a threat to others, yet get away with it (has the administration at your school tried to have charges filed against the kid in question?). It's completely ridiculous to treat a generally good student like a criminal for being a smart ass.

 

[migoi]

Not only tried...

did and convicted. He was given probation and has a probation officer. He also has a lawyer.

migoi

 

[Len S]

I live just outside Chicago and have been following this on the news and in the papers. Suprise suprise the tribune, in a op ed, backed up the school. Now the trib had no problen going after the 2nd amendment but this is the first time it has gone after the 1st.I guess the editors only respect freedom of speech for their own bird cage liners not anyone elses. My wife is a teacher and she really didnt have a problem with what he wrote in the context of the instructions. Her opinion was the teacher gave the instructions and should not be suprised at anything she got back. Of course my wife is from Costa Rica and as she says "we take our freedom of expression a little more seriously then you people up here do". Of course she says they have better manners down there so this would not be a issue, which is true. It is scary when a newspaper is so willing to give up the rights of others.

Len

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I hope there's a first amendment lawsuit being drafted even as I type. If not, there should be.