Police question -- Police asking for ID in VA

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Turn it around... You've done nothing wrong why should the officer ask for your ID.
And MAYBE they're looking for someone. Maybe I fit the description of who they're looking for. How should I know? I don't until they tell me, and they're not likely to tell me until they know I'm NOT who they are looking for. And even then, they still might not tell me why.

Do I LIKE being stopped and asked to produce ID? No, I don't. But why compound the situation by pissing off the cop??
 
And MAYBE they're looking for someone.
And that trumps the 4th Amendment HOW?
Maybe I fit the description of who they're looking for.
OK... Now you've got probable cause and a reasonable situation. Which gives the police the right to stop you not the 30 year old soccer mom with 3 kids in her SUV. :fire:

BUT!
That's not what the checkpoints under discussion are about. :banghead: The checkpoints we're talking are just stops that assume that a citizen is a criminal driving without a license or under the influence or any other numerous excuses the government uses to let the sheep know just who is actually in charge. :cuss: Key point - those checkpoints assume that YOU! are breaking the law - that YOU! are guilty of some crime without any evidence to that effect. Your paperz, Bitte!. It's exactly the same thing.

I'm sorry that some folks just don't understand the principle involved. Too bad - really - because there's enough of the "I don't have anything to hide" types around to almost guarantee that my grandchildren (of which I have 2 so far and 2 more on the way) will live to see the US become what the USSR used to be.

Checkpoints aren't about crime or public safety - they're about control.
 
I'm with you werewolf !!!! More and more we are heading into a police state. Remember when I was in school The teacher would talk about how in Russia you didn't have any freedoms. How the KGB could stop you for no reason and detain you. Some people don't see the similarity between what we gave power to the LEOs to do and what happened in Germany and Russia. I can see the start of it. People forget that the LEOs are doing a job. They have bills to pay like we do. The thing is when the word comes down they will do what job they are told to do even if it means the H**L with your rights. All the LEOs that say they support the 2nd and say us Non-LEOS should be able to have a CCW I wonder how many when if might mean their job ,if they pulled you over and seen you were just regular person then seen a gun would let you slide. Bet no matter what any say 99% would arrest you. Making the 2nd amendment be D**N.I see us losing more and more of are rights and getting closer and closer to the police state that years ago teachers taught was so bad about Germany and Russia
 
More and more we are heading into a police state.
I'm afraid you're about 30 years too late.

Which is the whole point really. We're already there. We've been there for a long time. Either you learn to survive without getting bit, or you get bit really bad for no real reason.

If you want to reverse the trend, you got to find electable politicians that see things the same way. Problem is, that animal doesn't exist. At least not in enough numbers to really make a difference.

It amazes me, people will tell you that you have "curb your ego" when you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but then they'll turn around and tell you to fight authority when they (authority) simply ask for your name.
 
I am not sure what that means. What exactly would be the things you would be able to "find"? Your statment almost sounds like the police would be bending interpretation of the law just to punish someone who didnt want their rights violated. Is that what you mean?

First of all maybe you should ask before you make accusations of us "finding" things as in falsifying something wrong. There are PLENTY of things that are violations that most of us look the other way on. If you give an officer a hard time though and try to make things tough on him the same goes the other way.

In NJ here are just a few examples:
License plate frame covering any lettering on the plate - violation
Anything hanging from a mirror - violation
Tailight out - violation
License plate light out - violation
No front plate - violation
License plate cover or dirty plate - violation
Fog lights less than 12 inches from the road - violation
Window tint on the front windows - violation

As I said the majority of cars that are on the road I can find a violation on so I would not recommend getting an attitude when all that is needed is a little courtesy and to continue on.

Police get all bent out of shape when they are perceived by the public as jack-booted thugs, but then we see comments like this

So I suppose if someone came to your work and gave you an attitude for doing your job you would just sit there and smile at them? Yeah.....right.
 
Make the laws in your state, and federal, work for you.

They don't have stops here in Oregon, it's been ruled unconstitutional (and even as liberal as this state is, they do have some good laws). But the last time that I was stopped in GA when I was stationed at Moody (and driving back from a TDY at Scott AFB) I was in a pissy mood (made it in one day). Anyway, I just told the cop that I was an illegal in the United States, hey, after driving for more then 14 or so hours, you get moody. I was HAPPILY waved on to continue on my way. No want or request for license again, no want or request for insurance, etc..

I drove the next 30 miles to Lakeland in just shunned silence. If you want to get out of the checkpoints, just tell them you are illegal, it seems that there are states out there that can't (won't) do anything about them.

Wayne
 
Dbl0Kevin,

Sorry if I offended you, but it was you, not me, who said police could "find" things if they encountered someone with an attitude problem. This implies you are at the very least selectively enforcing the law.

I agree with you though that it is best not to give policemen crap when they have you pulled over; its only going to end badly for the common citizen.
 
Sorry if I offended you, but it was you, not me, who said police could "find" things if they encountered someone with an attitude problem. This implies you are at the very least selectively enforcing the law.

If you look at my post you will notice that I said the following:

unless you are 100% positive you are squeaky clean

All law enforcement is selective enforcement other than certain cases such as domestic violence where an arrest MUST be made. It's called officer discretion. Our job is not to find a reason to lock up or ticket everyone we see, it is to keep the peace in the community. As such if you work with me I will work with you and often cut you a break. However, if someone gets an attitude and wants to give me a hard time just for doing my job then I will take a look at any violations I can find a little harder and be more inclined to write a ticket for them.
 
Dbl0Kevin,

Do you really think thats the fair way to handle it?

I am a surgeon... and I run into patients every so often with attitude problems. If one of them gives me a hard time, should I not do quite as good a job with his operation? Maybe give him no pain meds? Charge him more for being an ass?

You have to have a thick hide sometimes to do the job the way it is supposed to be done. I know you have a hard job.
 
should I not do quite as good a job with his operation?

Where did I say I would not do as good of a job? There are many ways to do the job and as I said to write or not to write is at the officer's discretion. If you were the one giving out tickets would you not rather give them out to people who were ignorant as opposed to those who were polite and courteous?
 
It seems that the bottom line is that YOU are in HIS world. If you are polite,then 99 times out of 100 the officer will be polite in turn. Attitude, on both sides determines what happens. You may beat the crime but ain't gona beat the ride. :D

Oneshooter
Happy in Texas
 
License plate frame covering any lettering on the plate - violation
Anything hanging from a mirror - violation

(edited to remove ones I can understand the reasoning behind)

License plate cover or dirty plate - violation
Fog lights less than 12 inches from the road - violation
Window tint on the front windows - violation

Yeah, but we're not a police state :banghead:
 
sometimes

It seems that the bottom line is that YOU are in HIS world. If you are polite,then 99 times out of 100 the officer will be polite in turn. Attitude, on both sides determines what happens. You may beat the crime but ain't gona beat the ride.
NO sometimes leos are the ones with attitudes. Not bashing police. But sometimes cops are out of line. And we sit there and take it. They come on strong being total a-holes,wait for you to react then throw the book at you.
 
i dont think the constitution guarantees us the right to drive, and further there ARE laws saying you have ot have a licsense to drive, so behind the wheel, we're all pretty much at the mercy of the police.
Statements like this disturb me. Aren't people taught basic civics anymore? (The answer to that question, sadly, is NO) The fact that the Constitution is silent on the issue of driver's licenses does NOT mean that driving isn't a right we all hold.

American Political/Philosophical Thought 101:
All people have rights intrinsically. These rights are granted to us by our Creator, NOT by the government.

In order to get along better socially and internationally, the People of the United States delegated certain authorities to the Federal gov't. Among those authorities are the power to repel invasion, negotiate treaties, establish a mail sistem, etc. (See Article I, Sections 8,9, and 10 of the Consitution for the list of those authorities delegated to the Feds)

Those are the ONLY authorities that the Federal government was to have. Several of the states, fearing that our rights might be miscontrued or abused, insisted that "further declaratory and restictive clauses should be added" to the Constitution. Those declaratory and restrictive clasues became the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is expressely inteded declare general truths and ideals (e.g. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,") and to restrict the Fed from taking specific actions (e.g. "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.")

THE BILL OF RIGHTS DOES NOT GRANT RIGHTS TO THE PEOPLE!!! Say it out loud, folks. "THE BILL OF RIGHTS DOES NOT GRANT RIGHTS TO THE PEOPLE!!" The People already have their rights, by virtue of being alive. The Bill of Rights RESTRICTS THE FEDERAL GOV'T from abusing the Peoples' rights.

Now, that should be enough to establish that the People do not need to ask permission of the gov't to do almost anything (e.g. to drive a car). But just in case that too was miscontrued or abused, they wrote the 9th and 10th Ammendments into the Bill of Rights.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The various State Constitutions work the same way: they are a list of authorities delegated to the State by the People. Authorities not expressely granted to the State by the State Constitution belong exclusively to the People.

Two things should be clear at this point. First, driving is a right, not a privilege. Second, unless a the Fed Constituion grants authority to the Fed to perform random stops (and it doesn't, trust me) the Fed does not have the authority to do so. Likewise, unless your State Constitution grants that authority to your state (and I don't know of any that do), your State does not have that authority. Finally, the 4th and 5th Ammendments explicitly prohibit either the Fed or any of the States from performing such blanket, causeless searches.

Sorry for the long rant, but like I said, it disturbs me when people don't understand this. It should come as no wonder that so many of us are alarmed at the random police stops, checkpoints, compulsory ID, and other such police fishing expeditions. The 4th and 5th Ammendments specifically prohibit this sort of behavior (in theory).
 
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Yeah, I can attest to that. I'm always polite. It doesn't guarantee anything.

My little burg has a law against driving on the road unless you have a reason to be driving on the road. If stopped and questioned as why you are driving on the road you'd best have a reason. You can not relying on any assumption of innocence or right to remain silent if you intend to avoid getting a ticket for uneccesary use of the road or whatever it is they've named this regulation. :barf:
 
If you were the one giving out tickets would you not rather give them out to people who were ignorant as opposed to those who were polite and courteous?

Well, you could just give the tickets out to people based on whether they violated the law.

The way you are doing things is very subjective. It is based on your subjective interpretation of another person's attitude. Your interpretation is based on many things, many of which depend on you, not the other person.

I wish you would just write tickets when laws are broken. That is what taxpayers hired you to do. I don't doubt your practice is any different than most police officers... but I don't think that is the way the people intend or want the job done.
 
My little burg has a law against driving on the road unless you have a reason to be driving on the road.
What town would that be? I'm curious as I live in "Mid-Michigan" also, and I've never been hassled for driving on the road anywhere at night.

I used to live in Leslie, a small town where the cops had a tough rep. But I've always found them to be friendly.

Now I live in Lansing, and I've STILL not been hassled by them at any time, day or night, unless it looked like I was breaking the law.

Got pulled over one day by a Lansing motorcycle cop because he thought my plates were out of date. I had just renewed them, but I hadn't noticed the sticker was the same color as the previous year. Turns out the SOS had goofed on some of the first stickers they printed and that's why he stopped me. Naturally, he didn't give me a ticket. :D
 
Some people don't see the similarity between what we gave power to the LEOs to do and what happened in Germany and Russia. I can see the start of it. People forget that the LEOs are doing a job. They have bills to pay like we do.

People forget that in doing their jobs taking drunks of the roads, some non-drunk people are going to get pulled over. Give them your ID, act polite, and let them tell you sorry for pulling you over, have a nice night. Some idiots on New Years Eve give the cops reasonable suspicion to pull people ver for random checks.

Don't like it? Buy up the land and build your own roads. There is no one telling you that you must use the government's roads. And for those saying that driving is a right, and they can't control it because they are only allowed to do those few things mentioned above, where does it say anywhere in the Constitution that the government has the power to build those roads in the first place?
 
boy headless i dont know.
i think the real problem was the founders had no clue there would be cars.
American Political/Philosophical Thought 101:
All people have rights intrinsically. These rights are granted to us by our Creator, NOT by the government.

this is some pretty creative stuff . only common laws apply right.

drinking in public, drugs, driving without a licscense, taxes, the list goes on.

How About THIS=

the GoVT has NO RIGHT to stop me from practicing medicine!
who wants a labatomy?
 
Sparticus:

Anything hanging from a mirror is an obstruction of your view.....it's kinda lame but you should see the amount of crap some people have there.

License plate cover or dirty plate laws are there so we are able to read the pate of a vehicle we are trying to stop. What is the point of having a license plate if you can mud it up so much that you can't read it?

Window tint on the front windows is dangerous to police officers because as we walk up to the car we can't see what you are doing. There have been officers killed this way.

The rest I agree are stupid which is why I don't bother people for them.

NO sometimes leos are the ones with attitudes. Not bashing police. But sometimes cops are out of line. And we sit there and take it. They come on strong being total a-holes,wait for you to react then throw the book at you.

I can agree with that, some guys are a-holes in every profession. The problem is treating the rest of us like we are those bad officers does not help your situation. You have to take things as they are.

Well, you could just give the tickets out to people based on whether they violated the law.

There is positively no way I could write a ticket for EVERY violation of EVERY law I see during a shift....it's just literally impossible. Therefore we have been given discretion as to who to write and who not to write.

The way you are doing things is very subjective. It is based on your subjective interpretation of another person's attitude. Your interpretation is based on many things, many of which depend on you, not the other person.

Of course I am. The township did not hire a robot to do my job.....they hired me. In as much I try to be as fair as possible to each and every person I come into contact with. If they treat me with respect then they are treated the same in return. If they get an attitude and try to lie to me or give me a hard time then they aren't going to have as pleasant of an experience.

I wish you would just write tickets when laws are broken. That is what taxpayers hired you to do. I don't doubt your practice is any different than most police officers... but I don't think that is the way the people intend or want the job done.

Sorry but you are wrong. As I said my township did not want to hire a robot to do my job. They hired me because they decided that they approved of my good judgement and trust the decisions I make on the street in order to keep peace in our town. There is a quote from my days at the police academy that I always remember : "Anybody can look at the law know when to arrest someone, the important part is knowing when NOT to arrest someone."
 
Kevin should the same degree of subjectiveness be applied to other professions as well?

Are you really sure the town only hired you to give tickets to people who hurt your feelings?

As for your quote from the police academy, I think it simply re-iterates the fact that the police where you are from do their job selectively, and with bias.

I thought justice was blind.
 
FOR: DblKevin
RE: Give a cop attitude and some will nail you for every little violation they can find.

In my opinion what you have described is a police officer that cannot countenance or abide anyone that has the unmitigated gall to question that police officer's authority.

If that is a correct observation then we're right back to such actions being about control and not about law enforcement.

Comments....
 
Kevin should the same degree of subjectiveness be applied to other professions as well?

I will not speak to other professions since I am not trained in them. I know my job, however, and I will stick to talking about it. Others should try to do the same at times. I will pose this question to you though. As a surgeon did you ever feel that a person was not suitable for a particular operation where another doctor felt differently? What is that if it is not subjective?

Are you really sure the town only hired you to give tickets to people who hurt your feelings?

Yeah I'm pretty sure since I was there when they hired me. Has nothing to do with hurt feelings. Believe me people on the street do not hurt my feelings. If I believe they are someone that deserves a ticket or to be arrested based on the totality of the circumstances then they will. The township hired me for my judgement and I will continue to use it as I see fit until they hire a robot or machine to replace me.

As for your quote from the police academy, I think it simply re-iterates the fact that the police where you are from do their job selectively, and with bias.

You don't seem to be listening to what I am saying. EVERY police officer in EVERY police department in EVERY corner of the country writes tickets and arrests people selectively. You obviously have a problem with this, but what you like to call "bias" is what we refer to as good judgement and discretion. It's obvious you believe that human beings are uncapable of such things and you would rather have an unfeeling, uncaring machine enforce every single law. That would be your police state my friend.

Werewolf......I believe my above comments will cover your concerns as well.
 
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