Police Question

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Bigjake

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This happened a little earlier tonight,

I'm out on my land hunting woodchuck. its by a fairly busy corner, but its township land so all is good, and i'm breaking no laws whatsoever. While looking through binoculars, i hear doors slam behind me, and turn to see 2 cops walking down the hill towards me. i just about wet myself ( my first encounter with the cops on these terms). they hit me up for my ID, and the older of the 2 asks me some basic questions while the other ( think barney fife) poked around without asking me. barney started getting really close to my gun and and gear, at which point i cleared my throat and said, " you mind?". he got pissy with me and did the little, " you should watch your mouth kid" thing (dispite having maybe 4-6 years on me). they ask to see my and what all was in it. i showed them the bag, which had nothing but ammo and a box of donuts ( no joke on the donuts, which pissed them off more). after a little more cop talk, they finaly left me in peace.

my question is, what are my rights in this situation? they had no warant to bother me with, i was commiting no crime, and i was on my own land. do i have to show them my ID? My gun? my bag? do i even have to let them on my land? (BTW, i had not fired my gun since ariving). i'm just iritated for the harassment over nothing, and want to know what i can do about it. any help you guys can offer would be great

thanks
 
You have no rights, you have to do everything they tell you to do. Actually, the only right you do have is the right to remain silent, anything you say .....
 
Bigjake
Let them know how you feel. Make sure they understand you don't want them to protect your property and you don't expect them to check out people or vehicles that seem suspicious. Tell them you accept the risk of theft/burglary/vandalizm and are fine with it. You won't even call if it does happen as you will take care of that too.
>sarcasm<
:neener:
 
Write a letter...

to the city/county administrator and cc a copy to the prosecutor for that jurisdiction, explaining and emphasizing the fact that you were engaging in legal conduct on your own land, and exactly how you were treated- including their response to your objection to an unwarranted search. Ask for a written response.
 
Define "fairly busy corner".........lots of vehicular traffic....people in the area, houses, etc????

Perhaps the LEOS were called for shots in the area or saw you walking with your rifle and wanted to make sure everything was ok.... that you weren't planning on being the next "sniper". You don't say which state your from.........did you have a hunting license on you (or any clothing that might give someone the idea you are hunting?)

They don't need a warrant to check on a problem. Have you had a problem in the past like this? You may be on your property but firing a weapon where you were may be causing a problem.

In a mere encounter.......no, you don't have to say anything to them.

If they are investigating something......yes, you have to provide ID.

As for the searching of your stuff.....not if its a mere encounter.

If you feel you were treated wrong....then tell someone.
 
Without knowing the specifics.
ID is not required unless you are doing something that normally requires a license, like driving a car, fishing et cetera. They can ask, you may decline. You of course may tell them who you are. If they are on your property you have every right to question why they are there, and should do so. Shouldn't let them search anything without a warrent that spells out what they are looking for. Be polite, and don't let them goad you into being rude. If they ask you much more than your name tell them you would be glad to answer any questions they have as soon as you contact your lawyer. Remember most cops saddly take the attitude nowadays that it is 'us against them' as such we must also take the mindset.
 
Wow, lots of responce, thanks!

faustulus - thats good advice, but what can happen if i come off rude? can i tell them to leave my property? i was rather rude to them after i figured out the attitude was "guilty till proven innocent"

Steve in PA- ST rt and a county road, lot of traffic, my family's buisness on one side, a church, and 2 fields. houses around but not in the direction i was shooting. i'll post a pic later if anyone wants to see it. yup, i have had several encounters with them, you'd figure after so many times, they would just ignore me. i had no hunting liecence, but as far as i know, you don't need one to shoot varmit on your own property

theebadone- LOL

sarge- i plan to do all those things, and as soon as they left last night i called the department and raised heck about it.
 
Hey, look. In the reality of today's world, wouldn't you expect LEOs to at least check out somebody with a rifle who is near a busy road?

To me, the issue is more of behavior during the checking out. There's no need for an LEO to be rude or hostile, even if he's fully prepared to draw and shoot if it's deemed necessary.

I sometimes go varmint hunting at night in the far back country. Before doing so, I commonly call our local deputy--or tell him over coffee--that I'm going out. That way, he can reassure somebody calling in about it, and save many miles of bad road.

It doesn't hurt for you to politely make yourself known to local LEOs about your activities and location. Saves hassles for you and them. Heck, offer an invite to come along!

:), Art
 
well, the one was pretty cool about the whole thing, after we both chilled out a bit, shoot, had barney been a little more civil with me, i would've offered them donuts and to take a shot or 2.

i think from here out i'll call the locals when i shoot that corner, and hopefully avoid more annoyances.
 
This post leads me to ask a question that I have wanted to ask and keep forgetting to do so.

A while back we had a problem on our cul-de-sac with a man and woman/girl "parking" in front of our house.

I called the PD the first time and the two left before the PD responded. I gave the officer the plate number and description of the car and the two individuals and explained that they had been there many times before and that I was concerned about thier activity being illegal (e.g. prostitution). He then asks for my name, my wife's name (who was inside at the time), and our DOB. I declined to give him my DOB.

Question is, why ask for our DOB? What business is it of the local PD when we were born unless it was to "run" our names for outstanding warrants. I cannot think of any other reason to ask for it.

Another question is does a routine encounter with a LEO justify enough probable cause to check for warrants for you? I wouldn't think so but I am not to up-to-speed on the FL laws.

GT
 
TarpleyG
Question is, why ask for our DOB?
Click to expand...
It's for the report. When taking a complaint there are seveal reasons you want the reporting party/victim info.

1) so they don't get mixed up with someone else
2) so the police can prove they got a call for service (in case
the cops respond and end up making an arrest for what
they found. A tip from a known citizen gives the cops PC
to check for things they would not otherwise get to.

EX- DUI complaint called in to the police

If the person calling in is anonoymous the cop can not pull over the said car without observing DUI driving conduct.
If the person calling in gives their name/phone/address the tip is deamed to be reliable and the officer can stop the car to check out and see if the report is true.


EX- Loud music/party complaint

In my area you need a complainant to do anything unless there are so many vehicles outside it blocks traffic.

Police departments work hard to keep their records straight and that is why they ask for full info when taking or responding to a report.
Another question is does a routine encounter with a LEO justify enough probable cause to check for warrants for you?
Click to expand...
Yes, a warrant check is not intrusive

All the best
 
Makes sense. They LEO that I talked to was a nice enough guy, I just found it strange to ask about DOB for something like that.

GT
 
I just wanted to chime in on the presentation of ID. I was detained once for not presenting my ID. I was walking home late one night (after I finished closing the bar, probably 2:30A), and was stoped by an officer who wanted to know where I was coming from/going to. He then asked if I had had anything to drink to which I responded in the negative, THEN he asks for my ID. I tell him that since he wasn't investigating a crime (in that I was on a lit sidewalk and not intoxicated) I would not show him my ID (was worried that I may have had a warrant for a ticket and I had to open the bar up in the morning...couldn't afford to go to jail overnight). Before I knew it he was coming at me. It took a lot to resist striking back when he spun me around and cuffed me. He took my wallet and placed me in the back of the car. Ran my ID, and came back to ask me why I didn't just show him my ID since I didn't have any warrants. I told him that I didn't think he NEEDED to see it. Anyway, long story short (as explained to me by a lawyer here in town) while you don't have to show a LEO an ID if they don't have PC, by not showing your ID you generate PC. URGH!

GinSlinger
 
Well, since I don't have any raps, I shouldn't have a sheet so I guess I am credible, right?

GT
 
Think "Threshold inquiry" gentlemen.

As an LE, I have the right in my state to see one walking at 2:30 am and stop and perform a "threshold inquiry" about your reason for being in that location and your actions at the time.

If I can show a reasonablness to my actions [ crime has been committted in that area repeatedly after dark, or any other number of scenarios ], I have the right to perform such inquiry of you. You are then obligated to provide ID when asked.

If you do not provide or refuse to provide ID when asked I may place you in the cruiser and detain you until such time as I am satisfied you are not up to no good by running a warrants check on you after "lifting" your wallet from your pocket.

As I have the right to "pat frisk" you looking for weapons dependant on your answering questions and demeanor to my inquiry[ which may lead me to believe I may be in jeopardy ] , when I take the wallet I will ultimately open same looking for any weapon that could be concealed there. This could be a razor blade tucked between two credit cards, or a small knife tucked in with the bills.

Guess what, I open the wallet and find your license. I need to ID you before I'm sure you are not wanted or a danger to me. I run the check, you come back clean and you are on your way.

You come back dirty, you can take the ride to the station.

Other states may not have the same rulings so your mileage may vary.

Brownie
 
My best suggestion in handling these requests for identification is ask the officer if he is just curious, or is he conducting an investigatory stop.

If he is just curious, then what you have is a consensual encounter. You are free to talk to him or not depending on how you feel.

If he is conducting an investigatory stop, then the rules for such a stop were handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Terry v. Ohio. He has to have an articulable reasons why he suspects criminal activity has occurred or is about to occur and that you are somehow involved. In such situations the courts feel that you as a good citizen have a duty to provide the answers that will allow the officer to quickly conclude you are not involved in any criminal activity.

The courts will use the "totality of the circumstances" test to determine if a detention is reasonable. Mere presence in a "high crime" area alone is not enough. Mere association with known criminals is not enough. Just saying that the person looked suspicious is not enough. An officer has to explain all the circumstances he observed that caused the officer to focus his attention on the person detained as possibly being engaged in criminal activity.

So I recommend when you are asked for your identification, you politely ask if you are being detained and why. It lets the officer know you know what the rules are and puts him on notice he had better have a good reason for stopping you.
 
Hey, we don' need no steenkin ID!

This is one of the reasons I try never to have my DL with me except when actually operating a motor vehicle on the public roads. It's not an identity card, it's just a LICENSE TO DRIVE!
BTW, if one is cited for driving without a license in FL the charge MUST be dismissed if he produces the license in court. (No, I'm not a lawyer, I do think that's what the statute plainly says.) That provision must date from back when Americans still felt insulted at having to produce "your papers, please".
 
Brownie,
according to your post, if there has been a crime committed, then without any corroborating information or identification, you can stop, frisk, and search any individual in the area.

If I cannot show my paperz, pleaz, then you detain me til we prove a negative, that I am NOT doing anything wrong?

If you are indeed a LEO, you scare me.
 
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