Bigjake
Member
spartacus2002
guilty till proven innocent again.....
guilty till proven innocent again.....
Police Question
- Thread starter Bigjake
- Start date
- Status
brownie0486
Member
Thems the rules in my state. I'm sworn to uphold the statutes and it has solved many crimes since instituted here years ago.
3am, you go by a stop and rob all night open joint, two men are loitering in the shadows around the corner of the store. The store has been robbed at night several times in the last year.
You don't think I should stop and ask them what they are doing at 3am in the shadows around the corner?
Whats scary is that you think I'm violating their rights somehow.
If I don't get straight answers and you are obviously evading the questions, would that clue you in they may be up to no good and then detain them until it's determined they have a legitimate reason for hanging there.
If you answer yes, that might be prudent, then do I have the right to pat frisk them for my own safety? The supreme court thinks so.
Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter. I have a responsibility to uphold the laws and protect my person from unknowns who may pose a threat to me as they are written. If I didn't check them out and they then robbed the store an hour later you would be the first person to complain about me not doing my job. I saw them in a suspicious situation at an hour where that behavior [ hanging in the shadows around the corner at 3am ] would not be considered normal.
So, I'm scary for being prudent and following procedures set forth by the legislature, and just another d##khe%d that didn't do his job if I don't check it out.
Pray tell, what constitites suspicious behaviour?
Thats what the two are exhibiting at that hour of the morning in the shadows. Should LE check suspicious behaviour? Is that not prudent in attempting to deter crime by presence?
Damned if I do [ harrassing them? ] and damned if I don't [ just ride by and ignore the signals they are giving me ]according to you and others. So if I can't appease your sense of fair play either way what would you do?
Is that law abused? You bet. Anything that can be abused will be by someone out there. Does that mean I am abuser of that law? No it doesn't.
I actually only gave traffic tickets to those who did not know why I stopped them [or purported not to know why ]. If I stopped you I asked, excuse me [ maam, sir ], do you know why I stopped you? If I got a "Ya, I blew that stop sign" or "Yes sir, was speeding" I asked you to please be more careful next time, or please slow down. Didn't ask for a license and reg from them. If the ysaid no, they had no idea why I stopped them, they got the reason in writing.
Ya, I'm the real scary one out there for sure. After 26 years on the streets, you develop a sense withe people about their actions and intentions based on those actions.
When the last time you approached someone at 3am who may just want to kill you to escape because they have warrants on them and they are not going in?
Be diligent
Stay safe, go home at the end of the shift.
Brownie
3am, you go by a stop and rob all night open joint, two men are loitering in the shadows around the corner of the store. The store has been robbed at night several times in the last year.
You don't think I should stop and ask them what they are doing at 3am in the shadows around the corner?
Whats scary is that you think I'm violating their rights somehow.
If I don't get straight answers and you are obviously evading the questions, would that clue you in they may be up to no good and then detain them until it's determined they have a legitimate reason for hanging there.
If you answer yes, that might be prudent, then do I have the right to pat frisk them for my own safety? The supreme court thinks so.
Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter. I have a responsibility to uphold the laws and protect my person from unknowns who may pose a threat to me as they are written. If I didn't check them out and they then robbed the store an hour later you would be the first person to complain about me not doing my job. I saw them in a suspicious situation at an hour where that behavior [ hanging in the shadows around the corner at 3am ] would not be considered normal.
So, I'm scary for being prudent and following procedures set forth by the legislature, and just another d##khe%d that didn't do his job if I don't check it out.
Pray tell, what constitites suspicious behaviour?
Thats what the two are exhibiting at that hour of the morning in the shadows. Should LE check suspicious behaviour? Is that not prudent in attempting to deter crime by presence?
Damned if I do [ harrassing them? ] and damned if I don't [ just ride by and ignore the signals they are giving me ]according to you and others. So if I can't appease your sense of fair play either way what would you do?
Is that law abused? You bet. Anything that can be abused will be by someone out there. Does that mean I am abuser of that law? No it doesn't.
I actually only gave traffic tickets to those who did not know why I stopped them [or purported not to know why ]. If I stopped you I asked, excuse me [ maam, sir ], do you know why I stopped you? If I got a "Ya, I blew that stop sign" or "Yes sir, was speeding" I asked you to please be more careful next time, or please slow down. Didn't ask for a license and reg from them. If the ysaid no, they had no idea why I stopped them, they got the reason in writing.
Ya, I'm the real scary one out there for sure. After 26 years on the streets, you develop a sense withe people about their actions and intentions based on those actions.
When the last time you approached someone at 3am who may just want to kill you to escape because they have warrants on them and they are not going in?
Be diligent
Stay safe, go home at the end of the shift.
Brownie
Bigjake
Member
Brownie
What state do you hail from? just curious. So what your saying is that an LEO can come on to my property, when no criminal act has been commited, ask for my "papers", search my person and my stuff for concealed weapons and if he figures out a good enough story, can take me to jail for more harrassment? thats wrong. another question, i'm on my land, commiting no crime and while getting searched, the leo finds a razor in my wallet, knife in my boot and pistol in my jacket. these are all concealed weapons, right? and he can haul my butt in for them anywhere else, but, does that matter if i'm on my own land? if you say yes to this , the country is truely screwed.....
Edited to add this-
Brownie, none of the attitude i display in the above writing is directed at you, so please don't take personal offence, those are all honest questions too that would like answered if you could.
What state do you hail from? just curious. So what your saying is that an LEO can come on to my property, when no criminal act has been commited, ask for my "papers", search my person and my stuff for concealed weapons and if he figures out a good enough story, can take me to jail for more harrassment? thats wrong. another question, i'm on my land, commiting no crime and while getting searched, the leo finds a razor in my wallet, knife in my boot and pistol in my jacket. these are all concealed weapons, right? and he can haul my butt in for them anywhere else, but, does that matter if i'm on my own land? if you say yes to this , the country is truely screwed.....
Edited to add this-
Brownie, none of the attitude i display in the above writing is directed at you, so please don't take personal offence, those are all honest questions too that would like answered if you could.
brownie0486
Member
I don't go onto private property land without a complaint [ which by law I'm bound to respond to if one is called in and I'm dispatched].
If I am sent to your residence I'm not asking for ID, but I'll ask you to ID yourself as the land/homeowner and explain we recieved a complaint for blah blah blah.
If you are not the owner, is the owner present? If the owner comes out and vouches that you are there by invite, we have the complaint to deal with which may involve you or not.
Now here's the rub,
The call was about a suspicious person in the back of a home by a neighbor at 3 am. You tell me you are the owner when I find you in the back yard, just hanging out. Do you think I should verify your story that you are the owner? How do I do that? I ask you for some ID. I call the station and they tell me the property is listed to John Doe. You refuse to give me ID's of any kind and tell me to F$$k off and stop harrassing you.
You are now going to be detained, frisked for my safety and then probably put into the back of the cruiser. I find drugs on you, burglar tools, or any other number of contraband items while searching your person.
You get to visit the jail for awhile and be pictured and printed. The prints are run and we find you are not the land owner, you go to court tomorrow morning.
Or, I find you are the land owner and just had an attitude about my responding to a call at your property. I find the contraband as before but you are still under arrest.
Any problem so far? You could have produced the ID and satisfied my inquiry. No search, an explanation as to what got me to your back yard and I'm on my way. [ you are not suspicious on your own property to me ].
So an attitude with LE about requesting your ID got you arrested because I searched you and detained you. On the same page still here?
No, I can not enter property unless a complaint has been filed at that location. Nor do I, I could care less what you are doing, even something illegal. But if I get the call and respond, you would be advised to cooperate and not have an atttitude about my presence. I have to respond to complaints. You may not like it but thats how it goes here.
BTW--I'm Mass LE retired.
I don't understand why all the fuss about producing your ID on request. I can ask for it under the threashold inquiry or called to the scene with any number of players when I get there.
They recently [ in the last 4 years or so ] made it illegal for me to ask a passenger in your vehicle for ID in this state on a traffic stop. It was being abused by some to check for wants/warrants and they changed it.
I see it as being diligent in the performance of my duties and obey the laws as set forth. You may get irritated at the intrusion [ to you ], but why create more problems if you have nothing to hide or are not involved in a crime of some kind? It leads to suspicion on the officers part naturally.
I don't take offense to much, and am happy to answer what I can and can't do and can articulate very well the reasoning behind the actions. Of course it's abused to an extent but I didn't play that way.
On the other hand, if I'm being fair and polite and you get beligerant at my presence, it sets the tone for my atttitude to change some as well.
I certainly have seen some of the boys bend/break the rules of engagement, but not with me there at the scene, as I would not allow it for a few reasons.
The first being I don't have the authority to do something and the second is that as my partner you are jeopardizing my career and yours. I don't really care about yours if you are like that but I would not allow myself sucked into the trapping of your actions in front of me either where I'll answer questions later. They knew not to play around me, I didn't take the job as a game or us vs. them on the streets.
Brownie
If I am sent to your residence I'm not asking for ID, but I'll ask you to ID yourself as the land/homeowner and explain we recieved a complaint for blah blah blah.
If you are not the owner, is the owner present? If the owner comes out and vouches that you are there by invite, we have the complaint to deal with which may involve you or not.
Now here's the rub,
The call was about a suspicious person in the back of a home by a neighbor at 3 am. You tell me you are the owner when I find you in the back yard, just hanging out. Do you think I should verify your story that you are the owner? How do I do that? I ask you for some ID. I call the station and they tell me the property is listed to John Doe. You refuse to give me ID's of any kind and tell me to F$$k off and stop harrassing you.
You are now going to be detained, frisked for my safety and then probably put into the back of the cruiser. I find drugs on you, burglar tools, or any other number of contraband items while searching your person.
You get to visit the jail for awhile and be pictured and printed. The prints are run and we find you are not the land owner, you go to court tomorrow morning.
Or, I find you are the land owner and just had an attitude about my responding to a call at your property. I find the contraband as before but you are still under arrest.
Any problem so far? You could have produced the ID and satisfied my inquiry. No search, an explanation as to what got me to your back yard and I'm on my way. [ you are not suspicious on your own property to me ].
So an attitude with LE about requesting your ID got you arrested because I searched you and detained you. On the same page still here?
No, I can not enter property unless a complaint has been filed at that location. Nor do I, I could care less what you are doing, even something illegal. But if I get the call and respond, you would be advised to cooperate and not have an atttitude about my presence. I have to respond to complaints. You may not like it but thats how it goes here.
BTW--I'm Mass LE retired.
I don't understand why all the fuss about producing your ID on request. I can ask for it under the threashold inquiry or called to the scene with any number of players when I get there.
They recently [ in the last 4 years or so ] made it illegal for me to ask a passenger in your vehicle for ID in this state on a traffic stop. It was being abused by some to check for wants/warrants and they changed it.
I see it as being diligent in the performance of my duties and obey the laws as set forth. You may get irritated at the intrusion [ to you ], but why create more problems if you have nothing to hide or are not involved in a crime of some kind? It leads to suspicion on the officers part naturally.
I don't take offense to much, and am happy to answer what I can and can't do and can articulate very well the reasoning behind the actions. Of course it's abused to an extent but I didn't play that way.
On the other hand, if I'm being fair and polite and you get beligerant at my presence, it sets the tone for my atttitude to change some as well.
I certainly have seen some of the boys bend/break the rules of engagement, but not with me there at the scene, as I would not allow it for a few reasons.
The first being I don't have the authority to do something and the second is that as my partner you are jeopardizing my career and yours. I don't really care about yours if you are like that but I would not allow myself sucked into the trapping of your actions in front of me either where I'll answer questions later. They knew not to play around me, I didn't take the job as a game or us vs. them on the streets.
Brownie
Matthew Courtney
Member
Brownie0486,
Very informational post. Thank-you.
I'm sometimes a night owl. I go swimming, trim bushes, plan new landscaping projects, etc. in the middle of the night. I have I question, because I almost never carry my wallet when I'm on my own property. What happens if you stop me, ask for ID and I say that I need to go inside to get it? I am not refusing to give it to you, I just don't have it on me. And, no, you cannot come in with me.
Very informational post. Thank-you.
I'm sometimes a night owl. I go swimming, trim bushes, plan new landscaping projects, etc. in the middle of the night. I have I question, because I almost never carry my wallet when I'm on my own property. What happens if you stop me, ask for ID and I say that I need to go inside to get it? I am not refusing to give it to you, I just don't have it on me. And, no, you cannot come in with me.
brownie0486
Member
I'm sort of a nightowl myself, or was when in that capacity.
If you were swimming, I'd probably ask you if you were the owner or guest at the house.
Dependant on your dispositon at my presence and the complaint I responded to, I may ask you for ID. If I did I'd wait on the porch/deck, whatever until you retrieved it for me. I would not expect the person to have ID with swim trunks on, I know I would not have mine with me in the same situation, wouldn't expect that from you either.
If you were digging up shrubs, or planting them which could look like you were digging them up I would want to see ID. In the house, no problem, you can go get it. Course if I see you walk into the house casually and you look like you know your way around I'm content to settle for the doorway and wait.
You could be stealing the bushes from your neighbor, if that were the case I doubt you'd be walking into that home to get a license. Most of it is common sense and observsational skills developed from dealing with citizens daily/nightly.
I forgot to mention, and the other lE's may have picked up on the absence of this but I can enter a private property if exigent circumstances seem to exist. Now all that means is that if I feel I have cause to believe a bodily injury or death is imminent on the property or in the house I may enter without a warrant.
Scenario of exigent circumstances. I am driving by a home in the summer with my windows down. I pass a home and hear screaming, high wailing sounds like someone is being killed or seriously injured. I stop and approach, I hear a woman yell "No, don't kill me" or I hear a male say "I'm going to cut you good". I can then enter under that ruling as I fear a death or great bodily injury may be the result if I do not act and instead wait for a warrant to enter.
If you use a little common sense and act prudently with a positive attitude towards others I have found you get the respect back in kind most of the time. Ya I knew cops who actually escalated the problem by their tone of voice at the scene. Not my type of cop unless the attitude is warranted.
My attiude remained pleasant until they gave me a reason to be otherwise, to the point I took more from some than most would as I had the confidence not to be threatened until I actually was threatened verbally or physically.
I took it as a job, followed the rules and knew why I wore the uniform [ to maintain the peace, enforce the laws and help people at the same time ].
One example though there are many of couse over the career. Drunk walking home at 2 am in the middle of a darkened road. He was apologetic for being in the road, left his car at the bar as he was drunk, so I get him in and take him home[ right down the street].
Wants me not to pull in the yard as his mother will see the cruiser if she is up. I drop him two houses away and wait for him to enter the driveway.
I don't drink and can't stand drunks. He got a break because he left his car there and did everyone a favor not taking it home and killing some innocent on the way. He did not have an attitude. Though he was drunk, he was smart enough to not drive, I thought that was commendable and helped the kid out. It could have gone either way when I approached him, it was his call and he played the cards just right.
Would another officer do the same thing I did, maybe and maybe not. I don't answer for anyones actions except mine or guess what another is going to do.
The key to my career was always remain objective and keep the prejudices out of the equation. You were treated with respect until you showed me you did not deserve it. I require it from you and you get it from me. If I have done my part in being polite [ even if I have to arrest you or while arresting you], then we had no problem as long as you remained civil.
I listened to plenty about my postion as LE while arresting them. No problem, but if you resisted in the least with that attitude present you could possibly be injured which was not a good thing.
Some negative attitudes projected here toward LE's in general will only cause more problems. Painting me with the same brush as all their bad LE experiences and readings is not only unwarranted and offensive but furthers the us vs. them attitudes I see here much too often.
Brownie
If you were swimming, I'd probably ask you if you were the owner or guest at the house.
Dependant on your dispositon at my presence and the complaint I responded to, I may ask you for ID. If I did I'd wait on the porch/deck, whatever until you retrieved it for me. I would not expect the person to have ID with swim trunks on, I know I would not have mine with me in the same situation, wouldn't expect that from you either.
If you were digging up shrubs, or planting them which could look like you were digging them up I would want to see ID. In the house, no problem, you can go get it. Course if I see you walk into the house casually and you look like you know your way around I'm content to settle for the doorway and wait.
You could be stealing the bushes from your neighbor, if that were the case I doubt you'd be walking into that home to get a license. Most of it is common sense and observsational skills developed from dealing with citizens daily/nightly.
I forgot to mention, and the other lE's may have picked up on the absence of this but I can enter a private property if exigent circumstances seem to exist. Now all that means is that if I feel I have cause to believe a bodily injury or death is imminent on the property or in the house I may enter without a warrant.
Scenario of exigent circumstances. I am driving by a home in the summer with my windows down. I pass a home and hear screaming, high wailing sounds like someone is being killed or seriously injured. I stop and approach, I hear a woman yell "No, don't kill me" or I hear a male say "I'm going to cut you good". I can then enter under that ruling as I fear a death or great bodily injury may be the result if I do not act and instead wait for a warrant to enter.
If you use a little common sense and act prudently with a positive attitude towards others I have found you get the respect back in kind most of the time. Ya I knew cops who actually escalated the problem by their tone of voice at the scene. Not my type of cop unless the attitude is warranted.
My attiude remained pleasant until they gave me a reason to be otherwise, to the point I took more from some than most would as I had the confidence not to be threatened until I actually was threatened verbally or physically.
I took it as a job, followed the rules and knew why I wore the uniform [ to maintain the peace, enforce the laws and help people at the same time ].
One example though there are many of couse over the career. Drunk walking home at 2 am in the middle of a darkened road. He was apologetic for being in the road, left his car at the bar as he was drunk, so I get him in and take him home[ right down the street].
Wants me not to pull in the yard as his mother will see the cruiser if she is up. I drop him two houses away and wait for him to enter the driveway.
I don't drink and can't stand drunks. He got a break because he left his car there and did everyone a favor not taking it home and killing some innocent on the way. He did not have an attitude. Though he was drunk, he was smart enough to not drive, I thought that was commendable and helped the kid out. It could have gone either way when I approached him, it was his call and he played the cards just right.
Would another officer do the same thing I did, maybe and maybe not. I don't answer for anyones actions except mine or guess what another is going to do.
The key to my career was always remain objective and keep the prejudices out of the equation. You were treated with respect until you showed me you did not deserve it. I require it from you and you get it from me. If I have done my part in being polite [ even if I have to arrest you or while arresting you], then we had no problem as long as you remained civil.
I listened to plenty about my postion as LE while arresting them. No problem, but if you resisted in the least with that attitude present you could possibly be injured which was not a good thing.
Some negative attitudes projected here toward LE's in general will only cause more problems. Painting me with the same brush as all their bad LE experiences and readings is not only unwarranted and offensive but furthers the us vs. them attitudes I see here much too often.
Brownie
12-34hom
Member
Excellent articulation.
Brownie, Welcome to THR.
12-34hom.
Brownie, Welcome to THR.
12-34hom.
brownie0486
Member
12-34hom:
Thanks, been here awhile now but appreciate your post.
Matthew Courtney: Thanks
Brownie
Thanks, been here awhile now but appreciate your post.
Matthew Courtney: Thanks
Brownie
ojibweindian
Member
Brownie
I wish all police were like you. Sadly, that's not the case.
I wish all police were like you. Sadly, that's not the case.
TheeBadOne
Member
Brownie, well said, again.
Matthew Courtney
Member
I do not remember ever beginning a project by moonlight, just planning them, but 99% of my yard work from May - October is done in swim trunks.
Right now its 83 degrees and 88% humidity @ 9:30 at night. The "feels like " temp is 92.
Right now its 83 degrees and 88% humidity @ 9:30 at night. The "feels like " temp is 92.
Bigjake
Member
Brownie, excelent replys, i'm very impressed, and you are one of the handfull of LEOs that has my complete respect., still need an answer about the weapons thing though. say i do have the razor, knife and gun all on me concealed, my land, and you deem it nessesary to search me. you find these on my person, where does it go from there? its my land, cant i do that?
brownie0486
Member
BigJake,
If the weapons are found on you it would depend on the laws governing those items in your district/state.
Knife in my state, no problem other than switch/auto; dirk, dagger, stilleto, which are against the law to carry here. On your property in your pocket, I have no issues with those items as well [ even though illegal to possess in public ]. You would be informed of same, no issue with razor blade without action.
Gun on private property in pocket. Depends if you are a known felon, you go with me. No issues on provate property unless I was called for shots fired, then we need to discuss the gun further and the outcome depends on your demeanor and answers.
May ask you if you have a permit for the gun and check it's serial number on the hotsheet and again that depends on a lot of things going on at the time.
Ex-Doc: Contraband restriction would be in the public domain not on private property unless the contraband was perhaps being used in my presence when I arrived, then we need to talk dependant on what your actions are on the property. Keeping in mind I was dispatched to field some type of complaint.
As an ex: If in your state you can not carry a fixed knife over 5 inches in blade length. You are using a 10" fixed to cut some brush. No problem with that, it's not in public and you are not endangering anyone with it's use and you are on your own property.
Now take that same scenario and you are in the front yard swinging it wildly about and ranting around scaring the neighbors. I arrive and see your actions. Unless you are of Indian descent and doing some type of "dance" I may have issues with your actions [ swinging the 10" knife around ]where it is inciting the public/neighbors. Again, when I approach you under these conditions, your actions will dictate my responses. If you are not out of your mind [ if I have any doubt you can go with me ], and you have a valid reason like training with the long knives like I do I may ask you to take it out back where others won't have need to fear the action. Or at the least to stop the action on the front lawn which brought me there and then a suggestion that may not be the place to be training if the neighbors are getting worried.
Thats with no attitude at my presence. Now change that to your having a bad hair day, you are angry I am there, who to hell do I think I am, you can do anything you want on your property. You keep swinging the knife and training. We have a problem. Thats me, I can deal with you and call for backup. Other officers may take it/feel you are threatening them with the knife or feel threatened at your continued actions and attitude.
They can react differently, may overreact in some cases or the outcome can be many diffferent options.
If I order you to put the knife down and you refuse, you will be going with me, eventually.
How we get you to go is up to you.
Now I get there and you are using that knife to kill cats hanging from potato sacks, you go with me for a few reasons. Who knows what charges follow.
As you can see, there are variables to each circumstance which dictate to me what my actions should be or in some cases has to be. We have "may" and "shall" laws here. Some things I have discretion in [ may ] and some are mandatory actions once certain criteria are met [shall ].
States vary, cops attitudes vary on different issues dependant on their particular experiences and circumstances and the laws/guidelines they follow.
It's not easy but it was rewarding for me to help people and take the BG's out of the equation when possible.
Twinkies, ya I remember that contraband myself, you brought back a few mems there sir.
Brownie
If the weapons are found on you it would depend on the laws governing those items in your district/state.
Knife in my state, no problem other than switch/auto; dirk, dagger, stilleto, which are against the law to carry here. On your property in your pocket, I have no issues with those items as well [ even though illegal to possess in public ]. You would be informed of same, no issue with razor blade without action.
Gun on private property in pocket. Depends if you are a known felon, you go with me. No issues on provate property unless I was called for shots fired, then we need to discuss the gun further and the outcome depends on your demeanor and answers.
May ask you if you have a permit for the gun and check it's serial number on the hotsheet and again that depends on a lot of things going on at the time.
Ex-Doc: Contraband restriction would be in the public domain not on private property unless the contraband was perhaps being used in my presence when I arrived, then we need to talk dependant on what your actions are on the property. Keeping in mind I was dispatched to field some type of complaint.
As an ex: If in your state you can not carry a fixed knife over 5 inches in blade length. You are using a 10" fixed to cut some brush. No problem with that, it's not in public and you are not endangering anyone with it's use and you are on your own property.
Now take that same scenario and you are in the front yard swinging it wildly about and ranting around scaring the neighbors. I arrive and see your actions. Unless you are of Indian descent and doing some type of "dance" I may have issues with your actions [ swinging the 10" knife around ]where it is inciting the public/neighbors. Again, when I approach you under these conditions, your actions will dictate my responses. If you are not out of your mind [ if I have any doubt you can go with me ], and you have a valid reason like training with the long knives like I do I may ask you to take it out back where others won't have need to fear the action. Or at the least to stop the action on the front lawn which brought me there and then a suggestion that may not be the place to be training if the neighbors are getting worried.
Thats with no attitude at my presence. Now change that to your having a bad hair day, you are angry I am there, who to hell do I think I am, you can do anything you want on your property. You keep swinging the knife and training. We have a problem. Thats me, I can deal with you and call for backup. Other officers may take it/feel you are threatening them with the knife or feel threatened at your continued actions and attitude.
They can react differently, may overreact in some cases or the outcome can be many diffferent options.
If I order you to put the knife down and you refuse, you will be going with me, eventually.
How we get you to go is up to you.
Now I get there and you are using that knife to kill cats hanging from potato sacks, you go with me for a few reasons. Who knows what charges follow.
As you can see, there are variables to each circumstance which dictate to me what my actions should be or in some cases has to be. We have "may" and "shall" laws here. Some things I have discretion in [ may ] and some are mandatory actions once certain criteria are met [shall ].
States vary, cops attitudes vary on different issues dependant on their particular experiences and circumstances and the laws/guidelines they follow.
It's not easy but it was rewarding for me to help people and take the BG's out of the equation when possible.
Twinkies, ya I remember that contraband myself, you brought back a few mems there sir.
Brownie
Mr. James
Member
Brownie,
As BigJake, ojibwe, and TheeBadOne say, excellent posts.
I was mounting my horse of high dudgeon until I read further.
Your posts may go far on these endless cop v. "civilian" threads. (you don't call us civilians, do you?
)
As BigJake, ojibwe, and TheeBadOne say, excellent posts.
I was mounting my horse of high dudgeon until I read further.
Your posts may go far on these endless cop v. "civilian" threads. (you don't call us civilians, do you?
)Brownie,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. It helps me better understand why I was detained and my truck searched a few years ago.
What would be good is if after these encounters with good guys who have been detained, searched and otherwise put through some stress not of their own choosing, the LEO(s) involved would truthfully explain why they did what they did, rather than just saying something like "weird things happen", or shining me on about an anonymous phone call being grounds for probable cause to conduct a search where no crime had been committed. No crime=No PC.
You explained more in this thread than the LEOs on scene or the LEO on the phone the next day. Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. It helps me better understand why I was detained and my truck searched a few years ago.
What would be good is if after these encounters with good guys who have been detained, searched and otherwise put through some stress not of their own choosing, the LEO(s) involved would truthfully explain why they did what they did, rather than just saying something like "weird things happen", or shining me on about an anonymous phone call being grounds for probable cause to conduct a search where no crime had been committed. No crime=No PC.
You explained more in this thread than the LEOs on scene or the LEO on the phone the next day. Thanks again.
faustulus
Member
No matter what their attitude do not act rude. You must always be polite. It will matter later in court.
Brownie,
Your first scenerio is indeed SOP for most police -- right up to the point they do it to a lawyer/councilman's son. I've seem people fired over it. See the problem is you have to prove in court that you had a reason to stop this individual. Most times police can't do it if the lawyer is worth his salt. The proceedure assumes I do not have representation, which is usually correct, however, everynow and again it bites the PD in the backside. There will be a scapegoat and at least he will be disiplined at worse fired.
See National socialist germany or Stalin's Soviet Union.
See it isn't about having nothing to hide. Most LE don't trust non-LEs. Which is fine. You go into each situation aware of the potential danger. I enter an encounter with an LE in the same manner. However, it seems to some at least knowing and exercising my rights is 'suspicious' that is why I know several good lawyers. Police are often pragmatists. They want to accomplish a goal and sometimes they aren't to particular about how they do it.
I don't care how noble the goal is if it treads on my rights, then I will fight to protect them.
See it has been my experince that most LE know jack about Law. They know department policy, and what they are told, but tend to run policy and law together. That is why we need lawyers, they are our defense.
Someone mentioned not carrying I.D. unless driving and that failure to carry it must be dismissed in court. I realize (I think) the point would be that one could forget their wallet under these circumstances.
The court thing is true at least AFAIK. However, why would anyone want to waste their time when they could be doing something else? Now this brings us to carrying I.D. all the time.
If you`re walking down the street and have a heart attack and are unconscious, how does the hospital notify your family? They could always waste time calling all the area hospitals I guess. That is after they`ve spent a few hours checking with the neighbors and your hangouts.
The court thing is true at least AFAIK. However, why would anyone want to waste their time when they could be doing something else? Now this brings us to carrying I.D. all the time.
If you`re walking down the street and have a heart attack and are unconscious, how does the hospital notify your family? They could always waste time calling all the area hospitals I guess. That is after they`ve spent a few hours checking with the neighbors and your hangouts.
brownie0486
Member
riverdog: I never really explained my actions as well unless asked directly. Then the answers were kept short and sweet as I could potentially be questioned later by an atty: subsequent to the arrest.
One thing they always got from me was respect as a person. It's an attitude thing with me. If you stay objective in your actions I found I was on terra firma in the courtroom. Their attys were not able to show any hostile attitude on my part from the scene or on the stand later.
This was really easy for me as I had been a PI for 15 years when I went to working with the two depts I worked for over 9 years.
As a PI, I have no authority or powers to coerce when approaching people. They didn't have to talk to me so if I wanted to get the informaton I had to use guile, wits, and a smile to disarm them from any attitudes they may have had when I made initial contact. That background gave me a good base with which to work with the populations/citizenry I protected while on the two depts. [ at different times ].
Though I worked plenty of cruiser shifts I was brought in as a training officer, specifically stick, knife, and h2h defense. Also was assigned [ after I received hk certifications in three venues at my expense ] to the response team on one of the depts. where we took down dealers mostly and brought contained situations to an acceptable close with a minimum of interruption to the community.
faustulus: everyone should have a good atty to represent them when they need one. The time to look for one is not from your jail cell. If my actions have been prudent, polite and can be articulated reasonably I have never had a problem in the courts.
It was a determining factor at all times for my actions. Of course I have been called in court br defense relative my actions. I've had them try to get me to become angry, beligerant, or flustered on the stand. That didn't really work with me as I had been testifying on murder and drug cases in the PI work for over a decade and actually was assigned as a state appointed PI by the courts in Sufflok county [ Boston ] to investigate for their court appointed atty.'s. I know of the games they play to get you to look bad. Keeping the objectivity on the stand and the streets keeps the defendants attys game plan off kilter. They want to portray you as uncaring and subjective in your actions. I never had that problem myself but have seem cops who have been banged away until they got mad and lost it on the stand or got belligerant. It's a game in the courtroom. I found you usually brought it about yourself if you got caught up in their game.
Actually the procedures take into account prior case historys are in flux based on a perceived need to change something as the abuses are uncovered. If you follow the guidelines and stay objective you will usually be on terra firma when court rolls around. The courts also see you often enough to know what type of cop you are by previous work and testimony before them.
I still don't see the fuss about producing an ID, and now that I'm retired from that work I have been asked for mine several times performing the PI tasks on the streets. I probably have a better understanding where they are coming from as I worked that side also. Even when they are bligerant or rude initially, if you keep your head and stay objective it usually works out. If it doesn't you have your day in court.
I never had all the answers, but I had objectivity and intelligence on my side at all times. It got me through some very scary nights work at times by staying focused on the tasks at hand and not allowing myself to become emotional over the circumstances. Thats a throw back from the Corps days when I was a pup overseas I'm sure.
Stay safe out there.
Brownie
One thing they always got from me was respect as a person. It's an attitude thing with me. If you stay objective in your actions I found I was on terra firma in the courtroom. Their attys were not able to show any hostile attitude on my part from the scene or on the stand later.
This was really easy for me as I had been a PI for 15 years when I went to working with the two depts I worked for over 9 years.
As a PI, I have no authority or powers to coerce when approaching people. They didn't have to talk to me so if I wanted to get the informaton I had to use guile, wits, and a smile to disarm them from any attitudes they may have had when I made initial contact. That background gave me a good base with which to work with the populations/citizenry I protected while on the two depts. [ at different times ].
Though I worked plenty of cruiser shifts I was brought in as a training officer, specifically stick, knife, and h2h defense. Also was assigned [ after I received hk certifications in three venues at my expense ] to the response team on one of the depts. where we took down dealers mostly and brought contained situations to an acceptable close with a minimum of interruption to the community.
faustulus: everyone should have a good atty to represent them when they need one. The time to look for one is not from your jail cell. If my actions have been prudent, polite and can be articulated reasonably I have never had a problem in the courts.
It was a determining factor at all times for my actions. Of course I have been called in court br defense relative my actions. I've had them try to get me to become angry, beligerant, or flustered on the stand. That didn't really work with me as I had been testifying on murder and drug cases in the PI work for over a decade and actually was assigned as a state appointed PI by the courts in Sufflok county [ Boston ] to investigate for their court appointed atty.'s. I know of the games they play to get you to look bad. Keeping the objectivity on the stand and the streets keeps the defendants attys game plan off kilter. They want to portray you as uncaring and subjective in your actions. I never had that problem myself but have seem cops who have been banged away until they got mad and lost it on the stand or got belligerant. It's a game in the courtroom. I found you usually brought it about yourself if you got caught up in their game.
Actually the procedures take into account prior case historys are in flux based on a perceived need to change something as the abuses are uncovered. If you follow the guidelines and stay objective you will usually be on terra firma when court rolls around. The courts also see you often enough to know what type of cop you are by previous work and testimony before them.
I still don't see the fuss about producing an ID, and now that I'm retired from that work I have been asked for mine several times performing the PI tasks on the streets. I probably have a better understanding where they are coming from as I worked that side also. Even when they are bligerant or rude initially, if you keep your head and stay objective it usually works out. If it doesn't you have your day in court.
I never had all the answers, but I had objectivity and intelligence on my side at all times. It got me through some very scary nights work at times by staying focused on the tasks at hand and not allowing myself to become emotional over the circumstances. Thats a throw back from the Corps days when I was a pup overseas I'm sure.
Stay safe out there.
Brownie
Ol' Badger
Member
I was once checked out by a LEO on my property at night. He observed the flashlight in the back and stopped to check it out. He asked who I was and I said the owner, just looking for my Cat! He asked for ID and I told him that I had none on me, just my light. Before I could offer to go inside to get it, a neighbor came outside to check on why there were people out there at that hour. I asked him to tell the officer who I was and that seemed good enuff for him and all parties left. I kind of like to think theres guys out the doing a little pro-active Cop work!
Also like to note that the LEO had a good atitude even while making sure that he was safe.
Also like to note that the LEO had a good atitude even while making sure that he was safe.
brownie0486
Member
Ol' Badger:
And thats the way it is suppose to work.
He was diligent, polite, and questioned you looking for a cat by asking for ID.
Take that scenario and make it the BG is in the back yard with flashlight. Same question, same answer [ about the cat ] no ID to show, I would not want him walking away with that answer only and potentially not catching a BG becuase he had a reasonable story. By taking it further [ asking for iD ] and your demeanor he would have probably seen signs you were not nervous about being caught in your back yard or conversely, the BG would have likely exhibited nervousness and been questioned further to his satisfaction.
Alls well that ends well.
Brownie
And thats the way it is suppose to work.
He was diligent, polite, and questioned you looking for a cat by asking for ID.
Take that scenario and make it the BG is in the back yard with flashlight. Same question, same answer [ about the cat ] no ID to show, I would not want him walking away with that answer only and potentially not catching a BG becuase he had a reasonable story. By taking it further [ asking for iD ] and your demeanor he would have probably seen signs you were not nervous about being caught in your back yard or conversely, the BG would have likely exhibited nervousness and been questioned further to his satisfaction.
Alls well that ends well.
Brownie
BrokenPaw
Member
A friend of mine had just bought a house, a couple of years back. The house had been empty and unoccupied for several months before she bought it, and so when the neighbours (who didn't know the house had been bought) saw people moving around on the property that night, they called the local PD and asked them to check it out.
A cruiser came by, and the officers went to the door (since everyone had gone inside by that time). When they knocked on the door, my friend (who was expecting it to be other friends) answered the door. With almost nothing on.[0]
The officers explained why they were there, and she told them that she was the new owner. Because she looked so young, they didn't believe her, so she produced ID (not carried on her person, one might add) that showed she was who she said she was. They still didn't believe that she owned the place, because public records hadn't been updated (she'd only closed on the property that day) and still showed the prior owner's name. She ultimately had to produce a copy of the newly-signed deed and other closing documents to convince them.
In all fairness to the responding officers, she's such a flake that her story probably didn't sound all that convincing, so their request for further documentation wasn't unreasonable under the circumstances.
Also, if I was a cop, and had been confronted with that girl, in nothing but underwear, I myself might have been inclined to draw out the investigation as long as possible.
-BP
[0] It should be noted at this point that the girl in question has a spectacular figure, and was 19 at the time, but looked about 16. She's never been particularly modest.
A cruiser came by, and the officers went to the door (since everyone had gone inside by that time). When they knocked on the door, my friend (who was expecting it to be other friends) answered the door. With almost nothing on.[0]
The officers explained why they were there, and she told them that she was the new owner. Because she looked so young, they didn't believe her, so she produced ID (not carried on her person, one might add) that showed she was who she said she was. They still didn't believe that she owned the place, because public records hadn't been updated (she'd only closed on the property that day) and still showed the prior owner's name. She ultimately had to produce a copy of the newly-signed deed and other closing documents to convince them.
In all fairness to the responding officers, she's such a flake that her story probably didn't sound all that convincing, so their request for further documentation wasn't unreasonable under the circumstances.
Also, if I was a cop, and had been confronted with that girl, in nothing but underwear, I myself might have been inclined to draw out the investigation as long as possible.
-BP
[0] It should be noted at this point that the girl in question has a spectacular figure, and was 19 at the time, but looked about 16. She's never been particularly modest.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Back 30 years ago I rode "Buddy Patrol" with the Austin, TX PD. Texas law sez an LEO can stop somebody and ask for ID. This is commonly only done when a pedestrian is in an area where walking around is unusual, and commonly only late at night. The LEO commonly makes a note of the name, time and place of the encounter; rarely is further action taken.
During my six or eight months of riding Friday nights on the 3PM-11PM shift, we stopped maybe four guys. One turned out to be wanted for murder in Wyoming; seemed like a nice kid, though--clean, polite...
Overall, even working the rougher part of Austintatious, there was a heckuva lot more observing than "bothering".
Art
During my six or eight months of riding Friday nights on the 3PM-11PM shift, we stopped maybe four guys. One turned out to be wanted for murder in Wyoming; seemed like a nice kid, though--clean, polite...
Overall, even working the rougher part of Austintatious, there was a heckuva lot more observing than "bothering".
Art
Terry v. Ohio from 1967 addressed whether this is allowed or not if anyone cares. It was determined to be okay for the safety of the officer.
http://www.fordhamprep.com/socstud/Cases/terry.htm
BINGO!!! Someone on this board recently pegged me as being a little more biased than I thought regarding LEOs. You bet I am. I have friends in LEO that are like brownie, not like other LEOs that have been in the media lately. My friends (and I'd bet brownie as well) have never been in the media. Why? Because they are reasonable folks and don't go off half-cocked with an attitude all the time.
GT
GinSlinger
Member
In Texas one must have a state issued ID and at least $7 on them or be subject to vagarency laws. Other states have a simular threshhold. Just a word of caution to some of you who don't carry their ID except when driving. I know of one non-vagarent detainment/identification under that statute.
GinSlinger
GinSlinger
- Status