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Poll on teachers carrying guns
- Thread starter gopguy
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StuckInMA
Member
I don't think we should allow teachers to carry. I think we should allow everyone to carry by eliminating the "Gun Free Zone."
I don't think we should allow teachers to carry. I think we should allow everyone to carry by eliminating the "Gun Free Zone."
Well, that's what Oregon did -- at least by state law. CCW holders are allowed to carry in Oregon schools.
You know who's not allowed to carry in Oregon schools? Teachers. At least, they'll lose their jobs if they do carry, in many or most districts.
That's what the whole Shirley Katz case is about. Local school board is bullying her by applying rules to teachers that are in conflict with state laws, and without statutory authority. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Meanwhile, some of the "pro-gun" people on this thread suggest that a teacher with a valid carry permit, in a state where everyone else is already allowed to carry on school grounds, should have to jump through additional hoops just to carry as a normal citizen would and does. I don't get that.
pax
Grizzly Adams
Member
I agree that if you are trained in the proper use and handling of a weapon and are not prohibited for some reason from owning a firearm there should be no reason you can not carry one anywhere! As has been said here by others if I can't trust a teacher with a pistol I sure can't trust him/her with my child or grandchild!!
Buel
Buel
Aguila Blanca
Member
Please show me the clause in the 2nd Amendment that discusses school systems asking for volunteers among teachers and then training them.hokkmike said:As a teacher of 33 years in a faculty of 32, I would say that MOST could handle ok. I suppose that it would be incumbent on the school system to train and accept volunteers from teachers to carry.
I never cease to be absolutely gobsmacked at the number of supposed pro-RKBA people who nonetheless don't seem to understand that "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed." No matter how "reasonable" a restriction or a requirement may seem to one group, it will seem equally UNreasonable to another ... but the bottom line is, ANY restriction or requirement is an "infringement."
cambeul41
Member
While I would prefer an unadorned Second Amendment, we still have to play the hands that we have been dealt. In most places that means that to legally carry one must have a license or permit. In Michigan, that is called a Concealed Pistol License.”
I think that I, a CPL carrying community college "professor,” should be allowed to carry in class as I can on campus. If the school offered extra training, I would be most happy to receive it. I can always use more training; and, although I do not think it should be required, its being available and even encouraged might do wonders toward calming the nerves of the tremulous.
If the school were to offer CPL training to those not already licensed but who wished to be, that would be splendid, too.
What is wrong with providing either basic or advanced training to those who wish to have it, to volunteers?
I think that I, a CPL carrying community college "professor,” should be allowed to carry in class as I can on campus. If the school offered extra training, I would be most happy to receive it. I can always use more training; and, although I do not think it should be required, its being available and even encouraged might do wonders toward calming the nerves of the tremulous.
If the school were to offer CPL training to those not already licensed but who wished to be, that would be splendid, too.
What is wrong with providing either basic or advanced training to those who wish to have it, to volunteers?
I doubt any school would advocate someone carrying on their property, rather, I think the best we could hope for is that they'd simply allow it as an acknowledgment of someones rights.
I think a lot of the people suggesting that are suggesting teachers with their CCW be allowed to carry onto the property is more for the purposes of putting the directors/board members -- whomever is voting the decision -- in a position of ease by saying, "We're willing to make this trade-off in order to be given the permission to carry on your property."
I know that some local laws are different with regards to gun free school zones, but in a good deal of the US, that Federal law still stands.
I think a lot of the people suggesting that are suggesting teachers with their CCW be allowed to carry onto the property is more for the purposes of putting the directors/board members -- whomever is voting the decision -- in a position of ease by saying, "We're willing to make this trade-off in order to be given the permission to carry on your property."
I know that some local laws are different with regards to gun free school zones, but in a good deal of the US, that Federal law still stands.
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Nor do I, but it sure seems to be the "conventional wisdom" of many (whether "gun owners," "fence-sitters," or CCW licensees alike) who have no or would rather not take the time and effort to think through the big picture of rights and responsibilities.Meanwhile, some of the "pro-gun" people on this thread suggest that a teacher with a valid carry permit, in a state where everyone else is already allowed to carry on school grounds, should have to jump through additional hoops just to carry as a normal citizen would and does. I don't get that.
It kinda goes further than even concealed carry in schools when you look at the results Jack Rumbaugh, Suarez International instructor, got when he set up some scenarios at The Warrior's Forge in Manassas, VA, after Virginia Tech.
From the article in "Concealed Carry Magazine:"
But guns aren't necessarily the only way to deal with school violence:
We have schools teaching children and young adults to cooperate in their own victimization. When one school in suburban Fort Worth tried to teach children and teachers to fight back against classroom invaders instead of cowering and waiting for death, public outcry and official disapproval forced them to drop the program.
I am the weapon. My pistol is just a tool.
Before we can get the professional sheep to allow guns, maybe they first have to get past mandatory hunker-down-and-die.
From the article in "Concealed Carry Magazine:"
We will be running the drills through several variations in two strings. String one assumes that the classroom being attacked is the first classroom the shooter enters. The students and faculty only have a split second to realize they are under attack and to respond. String Two will assume that the classroom is being attacked after the first classroom has been attacked. There will be a short time to prepare a defense against the active shooter. Each string will consist of three or four iterations from these possibilities: armed faculty, armed student or students, unarmed active resistance, or a combination of these. To further enhance the realism, the person passing through the classroom door may be instructed not to shoot, but to simply sit down and join the class like any other student. We can only do so much to simulate the element of surprise. The best way to accomplish this is by introducing a random element of some sort into the scenario. Also, to keep the scenario as real as possible, I disqualified myself from participating as one of the players. I chose to act as the proctor and videographer in this instance. Having someone with my particular skill set in a college classroom would be highly unlikely. We want to replicate what would be most probable; a concealed carry permit holder with some basic level of training.
But guns aren't necessarily the only way to deal with school violence:
The fourth round was active unarmed resistance. I instructed my students to use "improvised weapons" that I provided. We used tennis balls to simulate anything that can be thrown, training knives, and padded kali sticks to act as contact weapons, and some were to rely only on empty hands. In reality, this situation would deteriorate quickly into a WWF Royal Rumble with anything that was not bolted to the walls or floor being thrown at the shooter. We specifically used items that would not permanently damage our shooter, but would definitely take his mind off of what he was planning to do. I went outside and made sure my shooter was ready. I took my place inside the room and started the scenario. The shooter entered and got two or three shots off before he was pummeled by tennis balls, book bags, and the padded sticks. He managed to continue the fight and took a continuous barrage of improvised weapons. He was driven to the ground and I called an end to the fight. We again gathered to debrief the scenario. The shooter had to duck and cover because of the incoming junk, which gave the students time to attack with other weapons. Several students took superficial wounds before and after the initial attack. None of the wounds would have been fatal. The shooter would have sustained a number of serious impact injuries, which may have rendered him unable to continue the fight. At the very least it caused the shooter to go to ground allowing the rest of the class to overpower him.
We have schools teaching children and young adults to cooperate in their own victimization. When one school in suburban Fort Worth tried to teach children and teachers to fight back against classroom invaders instead of cowering and waiting for death, public outcry and official disapproval forced them to drop the program.
I am the weapon. My pistol is just a tool.
Before we can get the professional sheep to allow guns, maybe they first have to get past mandatory hunker-down-and-die.
wellarmedlamb
Member
I suggest we allow all staff, faculty, visiting parents and in the case of college, students, who have concealed carry permits to bring their handguns to school.
Carrying concealed has many advantages. Concealed guns cause no disturbance or apprehension because no one knows they are there. Concealed guns are always under the control of the adult with the permit; no inquisitive child will find one in a teacher's desk, in a locker, on a table.
Concealed guns make everyone safer. No one can tell who is armed and who is not. A person enterring the school with evil intent must consider every adult to be a possible problem to him.
I would never ask anyone to use deadly force to defend herself or others. I just ask that each of us be given that choice.
We have a right to life; a right to defend that life and the lives of those around us; we have a right to the means to do so.
Our schools are targets because they are vulnerable. We must change that.
Carrying concealed has many advantages. Concealed guns cause no disturbance or apprehension because no one knows they are there. Concealed guns are always under the control of the adult with the permit; no inquisitive child will find one in a teacher's desk, in a locker, on a table.
Concealed guns make everyone safer. No one can tell who is armed and who is not. A person enterring the school with evil intent must consider every adult to be a possible problem to him.
I would never ask anyone to use deadly force to defend herself or others. I just ask that each of us be given that choice.
We have a right to life; a right to defend that life and the lives of those around us; we have a right to the means to do so.
Our schools are targets because they are vulnerable. We must change that.
My girlfriend has worked in a number of the local elementary schools.
I also know many of the teachers in other schools personally.
Those I know I would trust with her life, my own, or our future children's.
Many of those she works with, I would not trust with the life of my lizard.
As we cannot be assured our future progeny would have teachers like those we know, we have already decided our children will be homeschooled. I would not trust our children to a lottery of teachers.
However, given this low view of the public school system, I would STILL prefer teachers to be given the option of being armed. I may not trust them to care for my children, but I believe their own self-preservation instinct would serve to protect more than just themselves.
This is all beside the point that "the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Few things we made so clear: people have a God-given right to protect themselves. Even beyond that, it is also better to allow them that right. (Funny how the right thing is also the best thing to do, too?)
I also know many of the teachers in other schools personally.
Those I know I would trust with her life, my own, or our future children's.
Many of those she works with, I would not trust with the life of my lizard.
As we cannot be assured our future progeny would have teachers like those we know, we have already decided our children will be homeschooled. I would not trust our children to a lottery of teachers.
However, given this low view of the public school system, I would STILL prefer teachers to be given the option of being armed. I may not trust them to care for my children, but I believe their own self-preservation instinct would serve to protect more than just themselves.
This is all beside the point that "the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Few things we made so clear: people have a God-given right to protect themselves. Even beyond that, it is also better to allow them that right. (Funny how the right thing is also the best thing to do, too?)
karz10
Member
I'm all for anyone w/ a permit to CCW on school grounds, I wish as a parent I could legally do so picking up and dropping of kids at school, and I'd feel better if those that chose to do so legally were able to in my absence.
I gotta tell ya though, it may not be without some pain in the process. Teachers are human too, and anyone choosing to take on this responsibility to CCW in a school has to know that they will be held to a higher standard. Any mistake they make will hurt them, the CCW in school cause, the CCW cause, and firearms rights in general.
We see threads all the time, especially in Strategies and Tactics, about all kinds of scenarios, and when the local / state laws allow the use of deadly force, and how those laws may be applied in individual cases. We hear all the time of citizens w/ a good shoot getting anal probes from the local DA, and questionable uses of deadly force. It's one thing to hear about a citizen on their own property shooting a would be robber, and how that state's law may apply, some may be justified to shoot for a property crime, some may still have to be in iminent danger of death in the process of being attacked before their state calls it a justified shoot.
Some schools are rough places, sometimes teachers get assaulted, but may or may not be in danger for their life. Can you imagine the backlash if a teacher makes a poor decision, even against someone that may have brought it on themselves, if I was a teacher that was going to CCW in school, I'd probably sign up for a prepaid legal plan or something, in case the SHTF. And going back to the scuffle situation, now there's a gun that could come into play.
Then there's the ND, it's one thing to hear about some guy having a ND in the local box store restroom, or an LEO having one and no one getting hurt, but can you imagine the 24 hr news machine getting ahold of a story where someone legally carrying in a school has a ND?
It wouldn't matter if any given situation was statistically insignificant compared to the rest of the general population, or the LEO community, it would only matter that something negative happened in a school related to a legal CCW.
Most schools don't allow teachers to punish students in hardly any way, let alone a physical way, especially public schools. If they won't let em have a paddle, wouldn't it be ironic if they were allowed to CCW. I think people (general public, politicians and school boards) will have to realize that there's a difference between school endorsed punishments carried out by teachers, and life and death decisions and the right of teachers or other authorized CWP holders to defend themselves and those around them, under state and federal law of course, and somehow ensure that the schools won't be held liable for actions of an individual. I think that's an unfortunate reality that some communities will have to overcome to get the schools to allow this.
Take Virgina for example, it's one of the states that actually allows CCWs in schools, but VT had a policy against it. So there's a couple issues here, the state law that needs to be written right if it's not already, and then getting the individual institutions and state schools to not write up harsh policies against it.
Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying this responsibility or concern over the worst case scenario isn't worth the very important right to bear arms in more places, including schools. However, if and when this does become possible in more areas where it previously wasn't common practice, I pray that the people taking on this responsibility take it upon themselves to get additional training, above and beyond any local CCW requirements, to make the most of their newly reinstated rights, so to speak.
I now take the safety of myself and those around me seriously, and have taken it upon myself to get additional practice and training to ensure my proficiency in a SD situation. I'm sure I could do more, and will, but I take steps to get better, and in less than a year of handgun ownership and being a valid CWP holder, I'm confident in my skills, enough to know my limitations and to expect the unexpected and a little faith and situational awareness go a long way to avoid many negative situations.
I'm pretty sure any reaonably responsible adult w/ a minimal amount of training and a firearm could be a formidable opponent for a lone gunmen coming through the classroom door after shots have already been fired to alert someone to the potential threat. But I think someone should take it upon themselves to get some real training and practice to defend themselves in close distance, weapon retention, and accuracy, if they're gonna carry in a school day to day, and I'd hope that people in the industry would help those interested in getting the word out about affordable programs to help get them started down the right path...
Just thinking out loud.
Regards,
Karz
I gotta tell ya though, it may not be without some pain in the process. Teachers are human too, and anyone choosing to take on this responsibility to CCW in a school has to know that they will be held to a higher standard. Any mistake they make will hurt them, the CCW in school cause, the CCW cause, and firearms rights in general.
We see threads all the time, especially in Strategies and Tactics, about all kinds of scenarios, and when the local / state laws allow the use of deadly force, and how those laws may be applied in individual cases. We hear all the time of citizens w/ a good shoot getting anal probes from the local DA, and questionable uses of deadly force. It's one thing to hear about a citizen on their own property shooting a would be robber, and how that state's law may apply, some may be justified to shoot for a property crime, some may still have to be in iminent danger of death in the process of being attacked before their state calls it a justified shoot.
Some schools are rough places, sometimes teachers get assaulted, but may or may not be in danger for their life. Can you imagine the backlash if a teacher makes a poor decision, even against someone that may have brought it on themselves, if I was a teacher that was going to CCW in school, I'd probably sign up for a prepaid legal plan or something, in case the SHTF. And going back to the scuffle situation, now there's a gun that could come into play.
Then there's the ND, it's one thing to hear about some guy having a ND in the local box store restroom, or an LEO having one and no one getting hurt, but can you imagine the 24 hr news machine getting ahold of a story where someone legally carrying in a school has a ND?
It wouldn't matter if any given situation was statistically insignificant compared to the rest of the general population, or the LEO community, it would only matter that something negative happened in a school related to a legal CCW.
Most schools don't allow teachers to punish students in hardly any way, let alone a physical way, especially public schools. If they won't let em have a paddle, wouldn't it be ironic if they were allowed to CCW. I think people (general public, politicians and school boards) will have to realize that there's a difference between school endorsed punishments carried out by teachers, and life and death decisions and the right of teachers or other authorized CWP holders to defend themselves and those around them, under state and federal law of course, and somehow ensure that the schools won't be held liable for actions of an individual. I think that's an unfortunate reality that some communities will have to overcome to get the schools to allow this.
Take Virgina for example, it's one of the states that actually allows CCWs in schools, but VT had a policy against it. So there's a couple issues here, the state law that needs to be written right if it's not already, and then getting the individual institutions and state schools to not write up harsh policies against it.
Dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying this responsibility or concern over the worst case scenario isn't worth the very important right to bear arms in more places, including schools. However, if and when this does become possible in more areas where it previously wasn't common practice, I pray that the people taking on this responsibility take it upon themselves to get additional training, above and beyond any local CCW requirements, to make the most of their newly reinstated rights, so to speak.
I now take the safety of myself and those around me seriously, and have taken it upon myself to get additional practice and training to ensure my proficiency in a SD situation. I'm sure I could do more, and will, but I take steps to get better, and in less than a year of handgun ownership and being a valid CWP holder, I'm confident in my skills, enough to know my limitations and to expect the unexpected and a little faith and situational awareness go a long way to avoid many negative situations.
I'm pretty sure any reaonably responsible adult w/ a minimal amount of training and a firearm could be a formidable opponent for a lone gunmen coming through the classroom door after shots have already been fired to alert someone to the potential threat. But I think someone should take it upon themselves to get some real training and practice to defend themselves in close distance, weapon retention, and accuracy, if they're gonna carry in a school day to day, and I'd hope that people in the industry would help those interested in getting the word out about affordable programs to help get them started down the right path...
Just thinking out loud.
Regards,
Karz
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