Powder, primer, and ammunition limits.

[CLP]

Recently two things got me thinking about the amount of primers and powder I keep on hand (in separate storage areas). First, was just a general inventory I took because of some rearranging in the man cave to accommodate a new safe. The other was a thread in legal about a guy who was arrested, after being stabbed by his wife, for having too much black powder.

So I've tried to research the applicable laws regarding powder and primer storage and transport but I want to make sure I'm not looking at old laws or have overlooked some. I don't know if the NFPA (Nat'l Fire Protection Assoc.) 495 is the law or just recommendations or what exactly, but when I see words like "prohibited", I tend to think laws. So far, the following is a summary of what I've learned from the NFPA 495; 1996:

Regarding Smokeless Powders:

- In a private vehicle you can transport up to 25lbs (in approved shipping containers which I assume are factory plastic jugs). So you can't go into a store an buy four 8lb jugs unless someone else can transport one back to your home or you make two trips- UNLESS...

- You have a "portable magazine having wood walls of at least 1 inch... thickness, in which case you can transport 25-50lb. Sounds like these can be easily fashioned with some 2x4s.

- Under no circumstances can you transport more than 50lb in a private vehicle (which shouldn't occur if one is abiding by the rules given the apparent 50lb total limit).

- "Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by U. S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations." I wonder if this applies to just during transport or also during storage while at home. I keep my powder in their original containers but know that some folks occasionally leave a hoppers filled if they're going to continue loading the following day.

- At home, I can store up to 20lb in their original containers, but to store between 20- 50lbs I need to keep them in a "wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1 inch nominal thickness"- again, appears to be something easily fashioned out of 2x4 lumber.

- An interesting one that doesn't apply to me as a homeowner is that "Not more than 20 lb of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1-lb maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments." Interesting to me because I've seen much more on display in at least one store.

Regarding Primers:

- You can't transport more than 25K primers in your private vehicle- period.

- No more than 10K primers can be stored in residences

- Again, doesn't pertain to homeowners but I'm including it because I find it interesting: Stores can't "display" more than 10K in primers. Don't know of any stores that followed that reg except during the panic- but that was but lack of supply.

- There appears to be regs on storage conditions of primers by commercial establishments (e.g. sprinkler system, fire barricades, etc) but not for homeowners/private residences.


Regarding Ammunition:

- No restrictions other than what the DOT may impose or what might be imposed based on any other hazardous materials may be present. I can't find anything about transporting ammunition in a private vehicle by the DOT. They appear to only have rules re: the import of, mailing, and bringing ammunition in checked baggage.

Misc, observations, and questions:

I can't find any gov't publication stating the oft repeated limit of 5lb for black powder, but I'm inclined to believe that to be the limit. However, I've also seen folks state that 50lb is the limit on can store in their home, which seems a bit high to me, and that the 5lb limit pertains to your private vehicle.

Also, substitutes such as Pyrodex are considered "smokeless" for the purposes of limits though I can't find that in writing anywhere. Any links of regs/documents to support this?

Does anyone know of any links to gov't publications stating limits and storage restrictions to black powder?

What about federal-level limits to storage/transport (in a private vehicle) of loaded ammunition?

It's just my opinion, but 50lbs seems a bit restrictive given that smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It's easy to reach and exceed this amount. I think reloaders tend to like to try different powders. If you're trying several different powders for various calibers in handguns and rifles 50lbs is limiting.

The 10K limit on primers is laughable. That's too few that one should be allowed to store in their homes if they're safely stored. Consider the numerous types: LPP, LPP mag, SPP, SPP mag, LRP, LRP mag, SRP, SRP mag, LRP BR, SRP BR...and you can even add in LRP and SRP for AR's (courtesy of CCI).

Since none of these regulations pertains to loaded ammunition, I would think that if you used up your components to make ammo, then those individual components are no longer included in your storage limits.

I think it goes without saying, that the aforementioned does not include any State-level laws regarding storage and transport of primers, powder, and ammunition. Which means folks need to search out what their own state's rules are for transport and storage of these components and ammunition

In Alabama, it appears I can store the following:

For both smokeless and black powder:
"...Propellants for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20
pounds (9 kg) of black powder or 20 pounds (9 kg) of
smokeless powder shall be stored in original containers in
occupancies limited to Group R-3. Smokeless powder in
quantities exceeding 20 pounds (9 kg) but not exceeding 50
pounds (23 kg) kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls
of at least 1 inch (25 mm) nominal thickness shall be
allowed to be stored in occupancies limited to Group R-3.
Quantities exceeding these amounts shall not be stored in
any Group R occupancy."

For primers:
"Small arms primers. No more than 10,000 small
arms primers shall be stored in occupancies limited to
Group R-3."


Pretty restrictive IMO.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I can't remember where I'd read all that. I do remember my eyes starting to glaze over after the drool got cold.

I do ponder the "rules", the posibility of restrictions other than fire safety. I've been listening to a lot of Coast to Coast AM lately tho!

 

[Potatohead]

Man, I wish i had that problem of having to try and transport that much powder home!

 

[emptybrass]

The NFPA publishes recommendations which are more often than not accepted as enforceable code by jurisdictions. Georgia is a NFPA state so I am more familiar with them, but there are other organizations that provide recommendations and some governments have their own codes separate from those of private organizations like the NFPA. I think Washington state, for one has their own standards, many of which are almost identical to NFPA. The best way to be sure as to what code you fall under is to contact your local fire marshal's office which is most likely the "authority having jurisdiction" and enforces the fire code in your area.

 

[suemarkp]

Localities choose what rules to adopt. NFPA 495 is one of the many code sets available from the NFPA. The national electric code is NFPA 70. Here in WA, NFPA 70 is adopted state wide. Some states don't adopt NFPA 70 at all, and have no electric code in certain areas (typically rural). I have no idea if NFPA 495 has been adopted in WA. If a state doesn't adopt it, and doesn't have their own rules, then you need to check at the county level and then the city level.

I'm also unsure who DOT rules apply to. I've never seen the diamond shaped signs indicating what kind of hazardous chemicals you are carrying on a private vehicle, including company minivans. But I see them all the time on freight trucks and tanker trucks. Certainly, interstate commercial vehicles need to comply. Whether federal DOT road rules have been adopted to state and local roads is also most likely state specific.

I also wonder if shippers like UPS know the content of all the ORM-D or other hazmat items on a given truck and have to limit the total quantity. You could order 20K primers and so could the guy down the street. The UPS guy may have 40K primers on his truck. I've ordered powders and primers through the mail, but never seen the quantity contained on the box anywhere.

 

[CLP]

Alabama is a NFPA state to, at least according to the code I read (it was cited repeatedly), but there were differences in the amount of smokeless powder (5lb less than the NFPA), but allows up to 20lb of BP (which doesn't appear to be addressed by the NFPA).

Forget the UPS guy on the delivery end- what about the one on the pick-up end??

So, to be clear, if one happened to inadvertently exceed these limits they would be "code violations", right? Can be given a fine, etc? But not criminal violations?

 

[MikeS.]

Over the limit could also cause problems with your fire insurance carrier.

 

[oneounceload]

You also need to read your homeowner's policy as they might have imposed even greater restrictions

 

[LeftyTSGC]

I found these online.

 

[grubbylabs]

UPS,and fed ex are only allowed to carry so much haz-mat on their truck at any one given time. The nightmare for ems, and firefighters is that they can carry such a mix of stuff.

I talked to a local fire department where I previously lived, they looked at my like I had a second head. Their response was that there was no way I could ever get enough into my house to cause them a problem. I don't think they know me very well.

But I do see this as a significant problem. We do not need a bunch of insignificant little agencies running around trying to implement laws and regulations. We have enough problems with the morons that get elected by all the other morons.

As long as your not storing your powder in something that is going to create pressure, you don't really have a problem.

 

[spitballer]

Interesting to note the 20lb limit of 1lb containers for retail establishments. I, to, have seen more. Perhaps this means a window display or something. Probably not a good idea to have a large quantity behind a display window.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Shouldn't this be in Legal and not Reloading?

 

[konertjm]

HUH

11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be
transported in a private vehicle.
11-5.4 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be
stored in residences.

You can transport 25K in your car, but can only store 10K in your home?

OMG, My first post on this forum.

 

[grubbylabs]

Welcome to the forum

 

[Midwest]

Regarding the closed thread about the situation about the stabbing victim in NJ who had his firearms and powder confiscated...according to this...the law in NJ regarding the storage of powder says

"21:1A-133A – No permit shall be required for the storage, transportation or use of smokeless powder which is used by private persons for the hand loading of small arms ammunition and which is not for resale. For this purpose not more than 36 lbs. of smokeless powder and not more than 5 pounds of black powder shall be stored or transported without a permit."

This information was found at http://njgunforums.com/forum/index....acked-his-guns-confiscated/page-2#entry902027

.

 

[HankB]

I'd be curious if the recommendations on storage of various quantities of powder, primers, etc., carry a statutory penalty if they're not adhered to . . .

 

[CLP]

I'd be curious if the recommendations on storage of various quantities of powder, primers, etc., carry a statutory penalty if they're not adhered to . . .

This is what's unclear to me. Of course, there are state laws that apply as well.

 

[GlowinPontiac]

If your house burns down how would anyone ever know how much powder you had stored? It would have all burned up in the fire taking the plastic containers with it. I also doubt anyone is going to sift through the ashes to find if you had more than 10k primers that cooked off in there.

As to the 20lb limit on powder displayed at retail stores, Almost every gun store I have been in has MUCH more than 20lb on display. Granted its 75% 50BMG powder that nobody really buys but they do have around 50+ pounds on the shelf at any given time. Sometimes 10x that amount if they just got a delivery.

 

[AlexanderA]

Blank ammunition

This thread appears to be talking about limits on bulk powder and primers; loaded ammunition doesn't seem to be subject to such quantity limits.

Back when I was involved in WWI/WWII reenacting, I found myself storing thousands of rounds of G.I. blanks at home.

This has me thinking. In a fire, it seems that blanks would be more hazardous than bulleted rounds, because the powder is held in the case by a mere paper wad, and thus is more exposed. Not only that, but the powder used in blanks is extremely fast burning. (EC Blank Fire powder was used to fill grenades in WWII.)

What would be the recommended (or mandated) methods of storing large quantities of blanks? Would regular metal ammo boxes be sufficient? What about an overall limit on quantity?

 

[CLP]

If your house burns down how would anyone ever know how much powder you had stored? It would have all burned up in the fire taking the plastic containers with it. I also doubt anyone is going to sift through the ashes to find if you had more than 10k primers that cooked off in there.

As to the 20lb limit on powder displayed at retail stores, Almost every gun store I have been in has MUCH more than 20lb on display. Granted its 75% 50BMG powder that nobody really buys but they do have around 50+ pounds on the shelf at any given time. Sometimes 10x that amount if they just got a delivery.

The wording is hazy... says not more than 20lbs in containers of a maximum 1lb capacity... So can they display 80lb in 8lb jugs and 20 1lb jugs? Again, I've seen numerous places displaying much more (not recently, but not too long ago)

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Maybe that's all King George III was trying to do - trying to reduce the storage of too much black powder in one place...

Apply that to the state of affairs in this country and around the world. (Have you heard of anyone's house being leveled because there was "too much powder" or "too many primers" stored in their homes?)

A large store of fireworks is much more dangerous than powder and primers.

Woody

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

The store where I buy powder, the shelves only display empty containers. Maybe that's all you are seeing is empty containers on display in those stores with "more than 20 pounds" on display.

Woody

 

[C.F. Plinker]

The original post referenced the 1996 revision to NFPA 495. The NFPA standards are up for revision every three years so this could be 5 or 6 revisions old. IIRC the 2011 revision allows up to 20 pounds of black powder all of which are to be in the manufacturers containers which are stored in a 1" nominal thickness wooden box, up to 20 pounds of smokeless powder stored in the manufacturers containers, up to 50 pounds of smokeless powder with the amount above 20 pounds stored in the manufacturers containers which are stored in a nominal 1" wooden box, 10,000 primers in the manufacturers packaging and up to 150,000 primers if they are stored in DOT approved shipping containers.

If someone has access to the current NFPA 495 perhaps they could summarize the portions of it. NFPA seems to be very protective of their copyrights and does not publish their standards in media that are available at no cost.

 

[ljnowell]

It would be hard to only display 20 one lb containers when a shop carries around twice that many kinds of powder.

 

[scottishkat]

I notice in the Virginia Uniform Statewide Building Code VUSBC sets the limit at 20 pounds of smokeless powder stored in original containers over 20 and less than 50 in a wooden box with 1" walls per previous. The limits of black powder are lower. Commercial use is significantly higher. There's plenty of info in the construction code. I think I might need to think about incorporating a box under my bench probably a little over the 20 limit.

I would think that most states have something similar. I am a building/elect inspector and had some required certifications. I don't seriously think there is much of a concern in a conditioned space.

The VUSBC is the document published in Virginia which tells us which codes to follow in our case it is the I Codes International Building Code etc.

Good luck and shoot straight.

Bob