Powders & Loads for 158gr LSWC @ < 800 FPS in a 357 case

[Livin_Cincy]

Hello,

I am looking at joining a local club.

• The club is about 50' Bullseye shooting.
• It is an indoor range with a max velocity of 800 FPS & Lead or PC bullets. You cannot shoot jacketed, plated or faster bullets.
  
• I asked if 800 fps was correct and it was confirmed.

I have 357 magnum revolvers and brass.

• I read that 38 cases & lead can leave an annoying cleaning problem in 357.
  
• I also have a 3" 38 that I would not want to load to hot so the 357 cases protect me.
• I load Speer LSWCHP & PC bullets typically at above 38 Special +P and below 357 powder charges. I am essentially shooting hot 38's.

I always guessed I was in the 900-1000 fps range with my loads. I just laddered the loads until my group is the best. I do not have a chronograph.

I have many pistol powders on hand from Western, Hodgdon, & Alliant. I enjoy the load development aspect of the hobby. I shoot a lot of 'Trailboss' in my 38 since it is the "Preferred Powder of Outlaws & Sheriffs." It is also slow and soft so new shooters enjoy shooting them.

Load data is always skewed as they use barrel lengths that are not common. They also assume your shooting 357 to get 1100 fps as a min. The 800 is a really slow velocity from what I see in manuals.

Any ideas ?

 

[WrongHanded]

I don't shoot .38 velocities from my .357s, but my wife does.

4.0gr of WST under a coated 158gr LSWC in a .357 case is very mild, and seems quite accurate. And if you check the .38 Special data Hodgdon has for WST you'll see a 7.7" test barrel, 158gr LSWC, and 3.7gr of WST gets 770fps. So I'd guess the extra case length and 0.3gr more powder in a short barrel won't be breaking the 800fps limit.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

There is no reason to why away from .38 Special brass because of the carbon ring it can produce. I Whitmore 38s in my .357 than I do magnums and never have a problem. Clean the cylinders after each match and you will never have a problem.

Guards and you can easily use .357 Magnum brass at .38 Special pressures. When I do load them I usually use the manax.38 Special charge in rheumatism brass and check the velocity. You can adjust up or down from there.

I use 158gr LSWC over W231 for this application and it works well for me. Again, I do this rarely because its better to use .38 Special brass IMO.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

From my 4' barrel Taurus Model 66, 4.1 gr of HP-38 (Win 231) under a MBC 158 gr coated LSWC averages just under 800 fps. I'm in the process of transitioning to just using .357 brass for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads, just because, so I happen to have the data. If you are using a longer barrel or want a little more leeway from the range rules, going down to 3.9 gr would do it. My previous equivalent load of 3.7 gr in .38 Special brass gives me just under 700 fps in the same gun.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

From my 4' barrel Taurus Model 66, 4.1 gr of HP-38 (Win 231) under a MBC 158 gr coated LSWC averages just under 800 fps. I'm in the process of transitioning to just using .357 brass for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads, just because, so I happen to have the data. If you are using a longer barrel or want a little more leeway from the range rules, going down to 3.9 gr would do it. My previous equivalent load of 3.7 gr in .38 Special brass gives me just under 700 fps in the same gun.

Thank you !

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

BTW, Universal powder at the same weights will give you essentially the same results, if you happen to have it instead of HP-38. I've used Trail Boss at between 3.8 and 4.1 gr under LSWC and think it would chrony just a little slower than the HP-38 at the same weights but I don't have data either in .38 or .357 brass (I could never keep my Taurus Model 65 from leading so I've switched to either coated or plated bullets for both the 65 and 66 and never went back to chrony my early loads with Trail Boss).

 

[Walkalong]

4.0gr of WST under a coated 158gr LSWC in a .357 case is very mild, and seems quite accurate

Another vote for WST (Or its close cousin Competition) for pushing a 158 Gr bullet <800 FPS from .357 cases. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.8 to 4.0 Grs should get you where you want depending on the bullet type and barrel length.

I shoot the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC with either powder at around 725/750 FPS from 6" barrels.

 

[WrongHanded]

Another vote for WST (Or its close cousin Competition) for pushing a 158 Gr bullet <800 FPS from .357 cases. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.8 to 4.0 Grs should get you where you want depending on the bullet type and barrel length.

I shoot the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC with either powder at around 725/750 FPS from 6" barrels.

Walkalong is the one who convinced me to try WST for the load I listed up-thread.

 

[FROGO207]

Our club has similar rules for the 50 foot indoor range. We shoot 1000 FPS max and lead projectiles only. No jacketed, plated, or coated. Also no magnum cases as in use 38 SPL and 44 SPL brass only. I use a lot of Promo (red dot weight data) for my accurate ammo with 158 grain SWC. This all happened after some idiot used armor piercing rounds on the soft steel bullet trap at 50'.

 

[brewer12345]

I would actually suggest that at that range and application you get some DEWCs and try them over bullseye or HP38/Win 231. I use 4 grains of HP38 in 38 special cases and get very good accuracy at my range's 12.5 yard pistol range (spitting distance from you 50 feet).

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree with Archangel, the Horrors of Specials in a Magnum seem exaggerated to me.

If I were shooting Bullseye at 50 feet, it would be .38 Special with a wadcutter and some fast powder - I load most non-magnums with HP38 - for 700-750 fps. That has worked fo a long time, why reinvent the wheel?

 

[cfullgraf]

Agree with Archangel, the Horrors of Specials in a Magnum seem exaggerated to me.

I agree.

But, I shoot 357 Magnum cases in my 357 Magnum guns and 38 Special cases in my 38 Special guns (There is something special about shooting 38 Special ammunition in a gun chambered for 38 Special). It is one of my idiosyncrasies. Since I have both 357 Magnum and 38 Special revolvers, I have a reason to segregate the cases.

That said, I do not shoot top power 357 Magnum ammunition these days, one of the factors of getting old. I load 158 grain SWC bullets to about 950-1000 fps these days in 357 Magnum cases and I'm happy. I'd have no problems dropping the charge a little if my range required it.

I use Unique but might switch to something like HP-38/W231 for lighter loads. Bullseye would be a good choice for target level velocities.

My 38 Special loads are mostly 148 grain wadcutter target level loads and are primarily for plinking and informal target use.

 

[Jim Watson]

Lacking that idiosyncrasy, I shot PPC with .38 wadcutters for several years, then IPSC Revolver with sub-magnums. There was no carbon ring resistant to regular cleaning and no visible erosion of the .135" band between Special and Magnum.
I was working on .38-44 to use cheap Special brass but discovered the joys of clipped .45s.
Didn't wear out the famously delicate Python action, either.
My revolvers don't get out much these days, just when somebody issues the occasional Revolver Challenge for a club IDPA or USPSA match.

 

[Walkalong]

Our club has similar rules for the 50 foot indoor range. We shoot 1000 FPS max and lead projectiles only. No jacketed, plated, or coated. Also no magnum cases as in use 38 SPL and 44 SPL brass only.

Why do they care what case you use as long as the other criteria are met? Just curious.

 

[Walkalong]

I agree.

But, I shoot 357 Magnum cases in my 357 Magnum guns and 38 Special cases in my 38 Special guns (There is something special about shooting 38 Special ammunition in a gun chambered for 38 Special). It is one of my idiosyncrasies.

Me too, and has nothing to do with worry about the "dreaded ring of crud". It's not that bad and cleans out easily.

 

[Toprudder]

I just checked my load data, and I've never loaded 357 for anything less than about 950fps. I guess "go big or go home" has been my philosophy there. If I wanted less, I went with 38spl cases and loads.

Having said that, if I were to approach this situation, I would probably start with Trailboss in 357 cases. I might try 148gn wadcutters as well, with one of the fast burning powders that are not position sensitive, like Titegroup or Clays.

 

[Blue68f100]

3.8gr of WST behind a 158gr LSWC-coated (MBC) yields 766 fps, SD 13, out of my 6" python using 357 Brass. This was tested in Feb of 2017 with a temp of 55F. Remember WST is reverse temp sensitive.

 

[Jim Watson]

. No jacketed, plated, or coated. .

Why no coated bullets? It's just paint over lead. Can't hurt even a "soft steel" (Soft steel???) bullet trap and prevents lead fume.

 

[anothernewb]

Trail boss and a 158 boolit in a 357 case are tailored for exactly what you're looking for.
My local range has similar rules. 800fps.

 

[WrongHanded]

3.8gr of WST behind a 158gr LSWC-coated (MBC) yields 766 fps, SD 13, out of my 6" python using 357 Brass. This was tested in Feb of 2017 with a temp of 55F. Remember WST is reverse temp sensitive.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but it occurs to me that I don't know much about temperature sensitivity in powders. Is it typical that the higher the temp, the lower the pressure? Or is it the other way around?

 

[Walkalong]

Is it typical that the higher the temp, the lower the pressure? Or is it the other way around?

Other way around.

I have read where WST is reverse temp sensitive (Slower when it is hot), but I guess I never noticed it. I could test a batch here as it is in the 90s now, and save half for when it is "cold" here.

 

[WrongHanded]

Other way around.

I have read where WST is reverse temp sensitive (Slower when it is hot), but I guess I never noticed it. I could test a batch here as it is in the 90s now, and save half for when it is "cold" here.

That sounds like a fine idea. I'll be interested to read your findings.

 

[Walkalong]

Only issue with that is I don't have any right now. When my pound of WST and pound of Competition ran out WST was nowhere to be found (During the craziness), so I bought a four pounder of Competition. I need to pick up some WST.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.

 

[FROGO207]

Reasoning behind the brass size and bullet coating is someone that is shooting with you might possibly think you are shooting full magnums or copper colored=jacketed ammo and say to themselves "if they can do it I am going to do it". If nobody does it then it'll be easy to spot the rule breaker. And our 1/2 inch thick mild steel backstop can't take that abuse for an extended period. We already found that out the hard way.