Powders you have given up on?

[BBDartCA]

I notice a few comments regarding the "temperature sensitivity" of W748. I am (and have been) using this powder for years with what I saw was success.

What happens to make this (and any other powder for that matter) "temperature sensitive" and how does that adversely effect performance?

Dan

The concept of hang fire can apply to 748 in cold temps. For example, a couple days ago in 40 degree temps, I got the infamous "click .... bang" with 748 in my Garand. Pull the trigger, hammer strikes primer .. count to one thousand one ... then the gun goes bang. Needless to say, this does not lend itself to great accuracy. Situation does not exist when its 80 outside. Hot magnum primers help lessen the hang fire problem, but the physics related cold weather are not resolved with hotter spark plugs. Physics being 748 has a high ignition temperature due to geometry and chemistry.

Ukiah ... was just hunting down there a few months ago.

 

[BBDartCA]

Completing my thought ... 748 is a cold burning powder with a high ignition temperature. As the ambient temperature gets lower, its harder to ignite. The benefit of the low flame temperature is reduced barrel and component wear. I believe polyester adipate or nitramide is the retarder, so to speak, to keep down flame temperature / inhibit ignition.

 

[bergmen]

Wow, this is just great stuff (on the W748). Frustratingly, my loads are intended to be eventual hunting loads - in cold weather, of course.

It is disturbing that this information is not readily indicated in the glossy reloading manuals. I have always been botherd by the fact that most manuals (with the one exception of Hodgdon) are published by - bullet - manufacturers, not powder manufacturers or suppliers. I am much more likely to stabilize on powder choices and go all over the place on bullets.

Bullets evolve and change on what seems like a monthly basis, powders have been stable (generally) for decades. It bugs the crap out of me to go to a manual to try to find a W231 load for a particular bullet, and it isn't even listed in the load tables, in a caliber that is perfect for W231 (9mm, .38 special). Nolser doesn't even list loads for W748 for .308 in their fifth edition manual for bullets heavier than 125 grains. I don't hunt with anything less than 150 grain bullets, do they want me to buy their bullets or not?

Is there a definitive, trustworthy, accurate resource for the fine points of powder choices other than the bullet books? Actual experience as has been expressed here is extremely valuable to me but being an engineer, researched data is a good thing.

BTW, where in Ukiah were you hunting (BLM, Mendocino National forest)? For deer? Just curious.

Dan

 

[USSR]

Is there a definitive, trustworthy, accurate resource for the fine points of powder choices other than the bullet books?

IMHO, perhaps the finest single source of load data containing various manufacturers powders and bullets, is the Lyman 49th Edition Manual.

Don

 

[zxcvbob]

That's new info to me too about 748. Maybe 4895 or AA2495 might be better in cold weather? What about Reloder 12? I have several pounds of it.

 

[bergmen]

IMHO, perhaps the finest single source of load data containing various manufacturers powders and bullets, is the Lyman 49th Edition Manual.

Don

Excellent, I will order one right away (the only Lyman manual I have is older than dirt).

Thanks!

Dan

 

[Slamfire]

I think it is the coatings on ball powders, but they are very hard to ignite in cold weather. Which is why military primers are closer to magnum primers than to standard primers.

I conducted load testing in my 35 Whelen in cold weather and had horrible hangfires with AA2520, a ball powder. When the powder ignited, the period of combustion was longer than normal. As if the powder was igniting in the barrel.

I found stick powders to be better, and in my opinion, IMR 3031 the best IMR powder for the 35 Whelen.

 

[nastynatesfish]

Hodgdons superformance.
I'm giving up on it before even starting.

 

[wanderinwalker]

:
The concept of hang fire can apply to 748 in cold temps. For example, a couple days ago in 40 degree temps, I got the infamous "click .... bang" with 748 in my Garand. Pull the trigger, hammer strikes primer .. count to one thousand one ... then the gun goes bang. Needless to say, this does not lend itself to great accuracy. Situation does not exist when its 80 outside. Hot magnum primers help lessen the hang fire problem, but the physics related cold weather are not resolved with hotter spark plugs. Physics being 748 has a high ignition temperature due to geometry and chemistry.

Ukiah ... was just hunting down there a few months ago.

Hmmm... I've never experienced a 748 hangfire at 40 degrees. And that's just not that cold. But maybe because I use it primarily in .223, so the charge weights just aren't very high like in a .30-06 case. To be fair, I can't remember if I tried my 748-.30/30 loads in freezing temperatures. (Scratch that, I did spend a day last winter ringing the 200 yard gong with the .30-30 running some 748 loads. Again, not as much powder to ignite as in the '06, but I was using standard primers.)

I like to use 748 in .223 with 52gr match bullets (and magnum CCI primers) for 100-yard practice in the winter. I'll do this with temperatures down into the 20s.

My 748 temperature-sensitivity experience went the other way: I started piercing primers in .223 loads when over 80* in July. They weren't even very hot loads, I think 69s at 2600-2700 fps from my 20" AR. Switched to Varget stick powder and haven't looked back; consistent from sub-freezing at home to 100+ at Perry and more velocity.

 

[BBDartCA]

wanderinwalker, weight and case fill could be something to do with it. You were probably running 33 ... 37g in the 30-30. I was running 50.5g and the case fill was not near complete. Perhaps position sensitive too. Certain hot primers covered up the problem while other mags did not. I still have some rounds sitting around. Maybe I'll video tape it.

 

[wanderinwalker]

wanderinwalker, weight and case fill could be something to do with it. You were probably running 33 ... 37g in the 30-30. I was running 50.5g and the case fill was not near complete. Perhaps position sensitive too. Certain hot primers covered up the problem while other mags did not. I still have some rounds sitting around. Maybe I'll video tape it.

Sorry, I didn't mean that to come off as doubting your results. I just thought it was interesting. And yes, I had visions of a charge of 748 basically "getting lost" inside a .30-06 sized case after thinking about it. It does sound like a case-fill and powder position difference. If I remember right, my .30-30 loads were right around 35gr of 748.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

What strikes me in this thread is that it has to do with the techniques you use loading and your calibers. Powders are not good nor bad, just some don't work with our technique or our calibers. I shoot a lot of 38 caliber lead loads. Unique works well for that. Lil-gun (for example) is real hot and leads a bunch. oould I fix the problem? Probably with some change but why?

 

[atvalaska]

i tossed out blue dot......w296 is fast in my .44 but dirty ...still in the air

 

[WVRJ]

I've been trying to limit the number of powders I use.Varget does well in .204,.223,.308 and.35 Rem.4350 is good in .25-06,.280,.300 Win mag.2400 works good in the heavy 44 loads.Most of my loading is done with these 3 powders and they do very good.748 and 760 have proven time and time again to be somewhat fickle in most of my experience,I have some of each on hand,but when they're used up,they hain't a-gonna be no more.Powders are like women-some are wonderful and trustworthy,others are dangerous.The fun's in tryin to figure which ones are which.

 

[Watergoat]

One of the most interesting and informative threads I have ever seen on the net. I find it odd that no one has mentioned WST and WSF. My go-to powders in 9, 40, and 45 lead loads. Now, if I could find a use, or better yet a sale, for the cans and cans of powder that never gets used anymore. H450, H870, Herco, various Alcan numbers, W630, W680, it goes on and on.............

 

[zxcvbob]

One of the most interesting and informative threads I have ever seen on the net. I find it odd that no one has mentioned WST and WSF. My go-to powders in 9, 40, and 45 lead loads. Now, if I could find a use, or better yet a sale, for the cans and cans of powder that never gets used anymore. H450, H870, Herco, various Alcan numbers, W630, W680, it goes on and on.............

If you're using WSF in .45 ACP, you should be able to use Herco in the same loads. It will fill the cases more but other than that will be almost identical. (it's too bulky to effectively use in 9mm, I don't know about .40)

 

[243winxb]

H450 Hodgdon gave up on it also. Discontinued. H380 should follow. IMO.

 

[gilgsn]

Anybody has had a good experience with Blue Dot?
I am thinking about the .45 Colt...

 

[USSR]

Anybody has had a good experience with Blue Dot?
I am thinking about the .45 Colt...

I have had good luck with 2400 with the .45 Colt.

Don

 

[bergmen]

I've been trying to limit the number of powders I use.Varget does well in .204,.223,.308 and.35 Rem.4350 is good in .25-06,.280,.300 Win mag.2400 works good in the heavy 44 loads.Most of my loading is done with these 3 powders and they do very good.748 and 760 have proven time and time again to be somewhat fickle in most of my experience,I have some of each on hand,but when they're used up,they hain't a-gonna be no more.Powders are like women-some are wonderful and trustworthy,others are dangerous.The fun's in tryin to figure which ones are which.

I'm still fiddle-dinking around with W748 (as mentioned in earlier posts). Zero problems to date in both of my 30-30's but they are not considered tack drivers, just medium range brush hunters and can bouncing plinkers. I was looking towards it for .308 in my Browning X-Bolt but the jury is still out on that one. Also for my M1A loads that I am still studying before cranking the handle.

OTOH, W760 has been stellar in my Browning A-Bolt in .300 WSM, extremely consistent and breathtaking, reliable accuracy (I can cover three holes at 100 yards with a quarter, and not just once). I truly never knew a rifle could be so incredibly accurate. I don't have a hunting role for this rifle anymore but it will live in my safe forever because of this amazing performance.

So, who knows. I may dump W748 after all and go hunting for a good, reliable, consistent powder for the 30-30, .308 and 7.62.

Dan

 

[zxcvbob]

Anybody has had a good experience with Blue Dot?
I am thinking about the .45 Colt...

Yes. .45 Colt +P is the only thing I found that Blue Dot was good for. I was using 255 grain cast bullets.

 

[zeke]

"Great idea. I use an RCBS Uniflow and I think RCBS makes a baffle for it, although I don't have one."

Powder baffles work, can't believe everyone doen't use them?

748 usually appreciates magnum primers, and am using CCI 34's, which produce higher velocitys than the Fed 215's in the 308 loadings tried. Am shooting in temps down to 10-20 degrees up here, no hangfires yet. Use it in 223 (rem 7 1/2 pimer), 30-30 (standard primer), 307, 300 savage and 308. Mostly it fills up the case in these calibers. It may be faster burning than desired in 30-06, especially if loading at 30-06 military semi-auto pressure levels. On the other hand, am not in hot weather country.

Have quit buying the following powders, but that doesn't mean they aren't good powders or wouldn't fufill other's purposes.

Bullseye-never got the accuarcy from it, too fine/fast.
AA-2-see above
2400-didn't suit my purposes, but am not a moderate to heavy velocity cast bullet loader.
imr-3031-had to individually weigh charges, but produced ex accuracy and velocitys in some loadings
Lil-gun-unless i can find some more Speer 170 jfps for the 357 carbine. It produced very rapid top strap erosion in Ruger 32 mag .
AA-5-use V V powders instead
titegroup-too fast, too fine, too hot

Will never quit buying unique, 231/hp38, 748, rl 22, h4350, h4198, vv-n350, vv-n110, 1680

 

[chrt396]

Ya know...all the powders will fire a bullet with reasonable accuracy...however the ones that I have settled on that are the best in MY guns are : Tite Group & Bullseye for .45, Tite Group for 9mm AA#5 for .40 cal, 2400 for .357 magnum, Varget & Imr 4064 for ..223 and .308.

The powders that are left in the cabinet..not being used are IMR4895, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, W231 & HP38
The ones in the cabinet that I use sporadically are: AA#2, AA#7, AA#9, WSF, N320, N310 & N350.

I'm trying to thin out my powder selection and get it to the point where I can use just a handfull of powders instead of having such a big inventoey.

 

[chrt396]

One of the most interesting and informative threads I have ever seen on the net. I find it odd that no one has mentioned WST and WSF. My go-to powders in 9, 40, and 45 lead loads. Now, if I could find a use, or better yet a sale, for the cans and cans of powder that never gets used anymore. H450, H870, Herco, various Alcan numbers, W630, W680, it goes on and on.............

I've had good luck with WSF in 45 & 40 cals. Pretty accurate stuff!! Tite group soes just as well..plus I bought some in large quantities. If I ran out of Tite Group..WSF would be a great substitute.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Blue Dot works great in 10mm with 180 grn JHP's. Excellent combination. As I remember about 10 grns gives me 2" 50 yrd groups.