Power VS Accuracy ?

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Alan Fud

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Everyone says that being able to put the bullet on target is important and that is fairly obvious because a hit with a .25ACP will do more damage than a miss with a .45ACP but what about if the difference in accuracy is only marginal?

Suppose you can hit the 10-ring with a 9mm and the 9-ring with a .45ACP or suppose you can hit the 10-ring with a .38special and the 9-ring with a .357magnum -- in these type of situations where the accuracy is only MARGINAL, is a person better off with a powerful caliber or with the weaker caliber that they can shoot better?
 
As long as the caliber is adequate for defense, I believe power takes a back seat to accuracy.

Having said that, the difference in accuracy to the level you're indicating isn't likely to manifest itself in a shootout. For most people in situations such as that, they'll be lucky to shoot half as good as they do at the range.


Sticking with the original question though, I'll generally put my money on accuracy.
 
Well, in my mind the whole thing is predicated on a fallacy, i.e. that more powerful calibers are less accurate. Of course, some shooters get nasty accuracy decreases with more powerful calibers due to wildly flinching, but that is usually a short-term training issue unless we are looking at .50 AE or something nuts like that. People being inaccurate with their more powerful guns is usually a problem of practice, not making the right/wrong hardware choice per se... if I can take you to the range and make your .45 ACP flinch go away in an afternoon, the problem isn't really a question of accepting less accuracy to get more power.

I'd characterize the "problem" a little differently. What you are really choosing is power vs. accurate rate of fire. Because no matter how good you are, as the cartridges get more powerful, the increasing recoil forces put a physical limit on how rapidly you can shoot with accuracy. At a given skill level with comparable guns, you will always get more hits in a given time with 9x19 than .45 ACP. The question then becomes, which is better? More hits or harder hits?

To know the answer to that, you have to know how much the bigger boomers slow you down, and how much you are really gaining per hit from the bigger boomers.
 
The question is a little vague and missing much needed context of the shooting circumstance.

Each caliber behaves a little differently and each has certain subtle advantages and disavantages if you are shooting that well. The differences are likely not going to be terribly substantial if what you are talking about is a 1" difference in POI...or so I would think.

With that said, I think what you are looking for is the end result of the shooting. Is a slight difference in accuracy going to make a difference in the fight, right? That is where it gets gray. .45 acp, 9 mm, and .38 special all behave a little more differently. For the 9 and .38, if you are using expanding ammo, they likely aren't going to expand to being much greater in size than the .45 is unexpanced, but they may penetrate deeper. All you can hope for is to land shots where you think they need to land on the outside of the target and hope they continue inward to do the desired damage on tissues you really want to damage. Nobody wants to shoot a person in the center of the forehead, for example. They want a brain shot. Center of chest shots are with the hopes of hitting blood vessels, lungs, heart, etc., not damaging skin in the center of the chest.

The bottom line here is that chances are, 1" or so difference in POI isn't going to make an IOTA of difference in you being able to knowingly hit the internal targets you desire to hit (as in the chest). Heck, the trejectory of your round might be such that it would miss the heart and yet it hits a rib and changes trajectory and goes right into the heart. You can't control that.

I took a class from a guy named Steve Moses here in North Texas who put a phrase name to a concept I like and have felt that make very good sense. People love harping on a slow hit beats a fast miss or as Alan Fud noted, a hit with a .25 beats a miss with a .45. Folks at Thunder Ranch would rather see you shoot slow and make a ragged hole than to have a larger group size. Basically, the concept is that you shoot as fast as you can while landing GOOD hits on target. What is fast and good will be determined by situational context. I feel very comfortable with being able to land 3 hits at 7 yards in a 5-6" pattern quicker than my partner at TR could get off his first shot that landed perfectly in the center. If he were my adversary, I would guess that his delay would not be to his advantage as he would not be able to make that perfectly lined up shot while being impacted by incoming rounds. Given aim and a certain amount of random chance, one of my 3 shots may also be exactly in the center as well. I think I read somewhere about being combat accurate and combat effective. That's all I am talking about. Few have the time and convenience to make sniper shots.

In a hand to hand fight, being able to draw and land shots anywhere on the guy fighting you and doing so very quickly beats the hell out of waiting for the opportunity to bring your little .25 up to shoot him in his right eyeball. You may be dead long before you ever get that chance for that eyeball shot. In contrast, at 25 yards, you have a little time and security to line up a shot (assuming you aren't fighting a guy with a rifle).

In both cases, you want to achieve a 'stop,' whether it is by changing his mind or by incapacitation of some sort. What is good enough shooting to make that happen is going to be quite variable depending on target and circumstance.
 
Great post Sean.

I choose to carry a lightweight commander sized 1911 stoked up with .45 Hydrashocks even though I own more accurate pistols. I also know I can shoot my 9mm a bit faster on Mozambique drills, Bill drills, etc., but I chose to discontinue carrying a 9mm in favor of a .45. I guess a person just needs to decide how much speed and control they are willing to give up for carry comfort and the perceived tactical advantage gained my a more potent round.
 
Alan . . .

I am with Sean on this question.

I know of absolutely no reason why a larger caliber handgun is inherently less accurate than a small caliber sidearm.

Further, let’s not confuse caliber and recoil; to illustrate, standard pressure .45 ACP loads (230 grain FMJs, for example) produce about 355 pounds muzzle energy, while standard pressure 9x19 rounds (124 grain FMJs, to keep the comparison close to “apples to applesâ€) also provide approximately 355 pounds muzzle energy. Therefore, Newton’s “opposite reaction†is essentially identically, and the recoil is likely less, since a MilSpec 1911A1 is normally a larger and heavier weapon than a full-size 9x19mm.
 
"Power VS Accuracy?"


:confused:

False dichotomy.

Get a pistol chambered in 10mm AUTO and have both. :)

:cool:
 
you will always get more hits in a given time with 9x19 than .45 ACP.


Given identical pistols in every regard but caliber, I would concur. I think that's why the times are faster in IDPA shooting an ESP pistol than they are when shooting CDP. :)
 
Sean,

Your 9mm load (124gr@1200fps) is a +P load or at least a bit on the hot side. You don't often see 1200fps out of even a 115 grain bullet in standard pressure 9mm ammo.

On the other hand, I believe the .45 load you listed is standard pressure.

Apples to apples is probably a better comparison.

RWK,

Recoil is a function of momentum, not energy. Momentum is the product of mass and velocity while energy is the product of mass and velocity squared. While energies are similar in standard pressure 9mm and .45, momentum is significantly higher in the .45.
 
Here, you can have both with this!

049455.JPG
 
Hehe, I want a nickel Desert Eagle in .50 caliber AE so much!!!!!! :D :D :D

Of course it costs as much as 2 mint Belgian Browning Hi-Power T series...or a million other guns I want, so it's going to have to wait a little while. :( :( :(
 
JohnKSa,

You may be right, but I am not yet convinced.

Newton’s First Law suggests that the “equal reactions†will be essentially the same for both the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP (in my earlier post), since their muzzle energies were virtually identical. Isn’t recoil is a direct function of that equal reaction, in fact the absorption of that energy (by springs, firearm’s mass, body parts, and so forth). After all, that “equal reaction†energy has to go somewhere and has to be consumed by something(s). My point is simple: since the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP have the same energy, should they not have the same recoil?
 
JohnKSa:

Those were both book loads from the Accurate load manual. And even if you consider the 9mm load "hot" for some reason, it just proves the point that 9mm has less recoil than .45 out of comparable platforms, even if you make allowances for people using hotter 9mm loads.

RWK: No.
 
Physics be damned, perceived recoil is the key to how the load effects your ability to shoot fast and accurately. My goodness, the same bullet weight, loaded to the same velocity, with different pressures (powder burning rate, seating depth, etc.), when shot out of the same firearm can result in a difference in how soft the gun shoots and how the sight tracks.

Just go try the 9mm vs. .45 debate for yourself. Take two Springfield Loaded 1911 pistols, one in .45 and the other in 9mm. Then shoot some of the readily avaiable personal defense loads through each gun. Then come back here and honestly tell me the .45 is as controllable and as easy to shoot fast and accurately as the 9mm. A little reality and common sense has to enter into the equation.
 
Physics explained

RWK said:

"Newton’s First Law suggests that the “equal reactions†will be essentially the same for both the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP (in my earlier post), since their muzzle energies were virtually identical. Isn’t recoil is a direct function of that equal reaction, in fact the absorption of that energy (by springs, firearm’s mass, body parts, and so forth). After all, that “equal reaction†energy has to go somewhere and has to be consumed by something(s). My point is simple: since the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP have the same energy, should they not have the same recoil?"

No. You need to understand the difference between the two concepts of "conservation of energy" and "equal and opposite reaction." Equal and opposite reaction means the bullet and powder exiting the barrel in one direction are matched by by the gun recoiling in the opposite direction, and the MOMENTUMS (mass times velocity) are the same, as stated by the earlier poster. If the energies were the same, your pistol would have over 350 ft.-lbs. of recoil. I assure you it doesn't.

What about the whole"conservation of energy" thing, you ask? Where does the bullet get all that energy?

It received the stored POTENTIAL ENERGY of the powder. A child's dart gun dart receives the stored potential energy of the compressed spring when it releases. When you throw a baseball, the kinetic energy of the moving ball comes from your muscles, fueled by the energy released by the breaking of the carbon-hydrogen bonds of the food you've eaten.

Climbing a ladder carrying a 16 lb. bowling ball and placing it on a shelf expends more caloric energy than just climbing the ladder emptyhanded. Where did that extra energy go? It in now stored as potential energy in the bowling ball. Nudge it with a finger and the ball will roll off the shelf and accelerate downward through the air at a rate of 32.2 feet per second squared until it hits the floor. Assuming you picked it up off the floor initially, the kinetic energy it has the instant before it strikes the floor is exactly the same as the extra energy you expended putting it on the shelf, over and above the energy used to get your bodyweight up the ladder.

Make sense?

Getting back to guns, if two loads have equal muzzle energy (Mass x Velocity x Velocity), the one using the heavier bullet will have greater momentum (Mass x Velocity), and hence create more recoil if both are fired in guns of the same weight.

JR
 
A little reality and common sense has to enter into the equation.

And note that the (simplified) calculations of recoil I posted support the commonsense view of things. Even a "hot" (boo hoo!) 9x19 load has about 1/2 the recoil energy of GI ball from the same weight of gun.
 
Power is useless without accuracy.
You should use the biggest (meaning most power) that you can handle - handling meaning your ability to shoot accurate with it.

Personally I can shoot accuratly with a .45... My pics of the CZ-97 I had shows this. But I can hit FASTER with a 9MM.
In a gunfight - follow up shots are not as important as that first shot. If you are accurate - the need for more shots goes down. As such being FASTER with a 9MM does nothing for me outside of timed pistol competitions that I am not even doing anymore.
I'm packing a 5 shot .44 Special that I can make a fast and accurate first shot with. I only have 4 follow up shots, and while I'm not as fast with these others - I'm confident I'll be able to do the job just fine.

I'm living right next to an Indian Reservation, but I am not worried about any George Custer situation... 5 shots is enough for me. Considering the last 2 times I had to slap leather, no shots were fired at all.
 
In a real gunfight you'll be lucky to land one, two shots on target, anywhere. That would seem to suggest using the most damaging round possible, assuming you can handle it. I think 9mmm +P qualifies but I prefer .45acp myself, and I seem to shoot .45 better too. (Right now it's moot as I can't carry here.)
 
I'm confident I'll be able to do the job just fine.

Bingo, now that's really what it's all about isn't it?

In a real gunfight you'll be lucky to land one, two shots on target, anywhere.

I don't believe that at all.
 
Sean,

I agree with you, I was just pointing out that your 9mm load was a bit on the hot side. Using a standard pressure load would show even more dramatically the difference in recoil between the .45 and the 9mm.

RWK,

Newton's first law isn't about energy.
 
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