PPU commercial ammo

[Hooda Thunkit]

I recently came in to possession of a 1926 Tula Mosin-Nagant Dragoon. As with most of these Dragoons, it has been converted to a 91/30, so I'll just call it that. I haven't fired it yet, because it's loaded with cosmoline, having never been properly cleaned.

I'm not including pics of the rifle, because, like babies, they all look alike.

I want to shoot this Tula, as it's in better shape than a 1930 Izzy that I already have. I already handload cast for the Izzy, and also for a 1942 (1898 receiver) M-39 Finn.
As luck would have it, brass fired in either the Izzy or the M39 will not chamber in the Tula. Brass fired in the Izzy and M39 also will not chamber in the other.

This means I have 3 rifles, and need to keep 3 different brass lots separate. ( Oy! I'll probably sell the Izzy...)

To this end, I purchased some PPU commercial ammo (from SGAmmo - good prices, great service). It's actually cheaper to do that, than it is to buy brass, bullets, powder individually. I don't intend to fire very many full-power loads. I want to download the ammo.
I broke down 5 of the cartridges, to see what is what.


Here's what I found -
Powder - weighed on my 505 scale
1-51.0gr
2-51.0
3-51.0
4-51.2
5-51.2 for an average of 51.08gr of an extruded something.

Projectile weight- weighed on my 505 scale
1-149gr
2-148.8
3-148.7
4-149.0
5-148.9 for an average of 148.88gr

Projectile diameter- measured by me with a 1" micrometer - sure, there may be some error, but this isn't scientific.
1- .3116"
2- .3116"
3- .3116"
4- .3116"
5- .3115"

For relatively inexpensive ammo (62 cents each i think, before freight), these sure are consistent.

I plan to chrono some full-power loads, then I'll drop the powder charge 2gr at a time, shoot them over a chrono, watching for ignition problems or odd numbers. I did the same with surplus ammo in the Izzy, and got a very efficient load that just about duplicates a 30-30.
I may shoot 100 of them, to get a batch of brass for the Tula. Or, I may just pull the bullets and sell them. Once I clean the copper out of the barrel, I plan to shoot only cast.

Either way, I'll have the leftover powder I can use.

 

[Charlie98]

Either way, I'll have the leftover powder I can use.

Maybe I'm Mr. Cautious, but I would just fertilize the yard with mystery meat powder. I know you have weights for the factory charge, but not knowing any characteristics of the powder itself... I wouldn't do it. YMMV.

I've found Prvi to be pretty decent stuff, I have quite a bit of it in .308 that I reload for my Savage 99 (cast bullets) and my M1a (jacketed bullets.)

 

[sparkyv]

I usually prefer to purchase factory rifle ammo for the brass and shoot it up rather than buying just the brass. And I too, usually segregate the brass for each rifle, even of the same caliber.

 

[Bfh_auto]

There's a reason PPU generally shoots well
I would have used it to form the brass to the chamber.
Reducing unknown powder is a dangerous idea and I do a lot of unrecommended things.
It sounds like you may have a decent Mosin on your hands.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Maybe I'm Mr. Cautious, but I would just fertilize the yard with mystery meat powder. I know you have weights for the factory charge, but not knowing any characteristics of the powder itself... I wouldn't do it.

I understand your caution, I am cautious myself. I looked in the charged case, the powder comes almost to the base of the bullet, between the shoulder rim and the base of the neck. This is a fairly slow powder.
Most of the military cartridges of this size use a powder in the range of 4895. There's a reason for that; it works very well.

Reducing unknown powder is a dangerous idea........

You are absolutely correct, especially if one is going in blindly.
However, every load in every manual has a powder charge weight range. There is room to manipulate the charge.
This powder is undoubtedly a non-cannister powder, but IME it will be in the burning range of 4895. The charge weight from the factory, along with claimed velocities, are consistent with that burning speed.
Therefore, while the powder is unknown, the characteristics are not completely opaque. A careful, experienced handloader can use the available information and interpolate.
That, along with a chrono and a love of all my digits and eyes, has allowed me to manipulate various factory powders to a certain extent.

I appreciate the warnings and concern. I would issue the same warnings to a tyro in our hobby, but I have been reloading for 30 years - since the late 1980s.

When I run these loads over a chrono I'll post my findings.

 

[Charlie98]

but I have been reloading for 30 years - since the late 1980s.

That's about my timeline... and I got you, you are probably safe in doing so. My dad was an electrician for many years, he always said that almost everything gives you a second chance... except electricity (he worked around a lot of 220v, 440v, etc industrial stuff, not table lamps.) I carry that concept into reloading. I'll get off my soapbox, now...

Let us know how they turn out. I'd be curious to see what kind of velocity you get out of the factory loading vs your knocked down charge.

 

[fpgt72]

I usually prefer to purchase factory rifle ammo for the brass and shoot it up rather than buying just the brass. And I too, usually segregate the brass for each rifle, even of the same caliber.

If you can find it I agree....with 54R it is pretty easy.

 

[fpgt72]

Maybe I'm Mr. Cautious, but I would just fertilize the yard with mystery meat powder. I know you have weights for the factory charge, but not knowing any characteristics of the powder itself... I wouldn't do it. YMMV.

I've found Prvi to be pretty decent stuff, I have quite a bit of it in .308 that I reload for my Savage 99 (cast bullets) and my M1a (jacketed bullets.)

I kinda agree here....not knowing what the powder is I would not want to down load it.....you do know what the factory charge is so just put them back together and away you go.

 

[fpgt72]

I agree with one thing....it is nice to see what factory numbers are....then when you work up your stuff you have a base line to work from.

 

[Random 8]

I believe the powder is in the range of R17/IMR 4350, and likely a RUAG subsidiary manufactured equivalent, possibly Swiss surplus. PRVI acquired most of RUAGs large caliber tooling and materiel' in the early 2Ks after the Swiss phased out some obsolete cartridges from production.

PRVI is very good ammunition across the board. You should be safe dropping charges slightly and making "mexican match", but I wouldn't go below 90% of full charge average with a powder in this burn range. Personally, I would just slip on a sissy pad over the stock and fire them as-is rather than going through all the hassle of pulling down and reloading high quality ammunition.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Please don't talk yourself into believing it's safe to download those factory rounds with the powder that came with them. Yes there is a charge range but you have no idea if that ammo is already at the low end of the powder used. You also don't know how that non-canister powder will react to downloading.

Reassemble the ammo with H4895, Varget, BL-C(2) or something similar. If you really want to download use the reduced pressure formula for H4895 and call it good. (and safe)

Just curious, is that Finnish M-39 chambered for a .308" bullet, most are?

 

[Charlie98]

I believe the powder is in the range of R17/IMR 4350

Oddly, I was kind of thinking the same thing.

 

[Random 8]

Oddly, I was kind of thinking the same thing.

I had a lengthy conversation with RUAG, the Swiss equivalent of the CMP, and PRVI regarding Swiss GP-11 ammunition some years ago. The physical correspondence contains proprietary information, so please do not ask me to share the email texts. To summarize, RUAG was no longer capable of producing new Swiss GP-11 as they sold tooling to PRVI. In talking with PRVI, their 7,5 Swiss fmj loading IS essentially GP-11 loaded in a boxer case with a NATO spec jacket material rather than the proprietary Swiss military material RUAG used in GP-11. The bullet is made on RUAG tooling formerly used to make GP-11 projectiles. They indicated it was loaded with a Swiss made bulk equivalent to R-17 remaining in inventory from the RUAG purchase, and the same powder would be used going forward as stores of the surplus were depleted and is identical to the Norma made powder of the same designation. I would assume, based on your charge weights that this same powder is used in their 7.62x54R ammunition, as well as likely 6,5 x55 where it is milspec for Swedish M41 and likely other medium bore cartridges.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Okay folks, OP here. I downloaded and fired some ammo over the chrono.

I want to stress, this is an advanced handloading exercise, not to be taken lightly by someone new to the game. I've been involved with this hobby for 3 decades. Playing around with gunpowder is not to be done on a whim. A little knowledge can be dangerous.

I pulled 15 rounds. I weighed the charge from the factory, and came to an average of 51.08gr of powder. For ease of use, I'll call it 51gr.
I reloaded 5 each with 48gr, 45gr, 42.5gr of the factory powder. This morning I fired them out behind the barn. I realize it's a tiny sample, and can't be regarded as a full-blown test, but here is what I got.

I measured the OAL of 10 factory loads, and set my reloads at the midpoint of the readings. I used a mild crimp, as the factory did also.

These numbers will be the average of 5 shots. About 82 degrees, about 55% humidity.

51.0gr (factory load) 2868.5 fps, Spread 49 fps, SD 23.1
48.0gr (4gr download) 2555 fps, Spread 3 fps, SD 1.5
45.0gr (6gr download) 2438 fps, Spread 46, SD 20.3
42.5gr (8.5gr download) 2324 fps, Spread 56, SD 21.3

Here's some of my thoughts.
-It's obvious the 48gr load was the most efficient, at a crazy low deviation. Perhaps it was a fluke, I don't know.

-The velocity didn't drop as fast as I expected, at least after the initial 4gr powder download. This is a vivid reminder that the burn/pressure of these powders is not linear to charge weight.

-Even with a 17% powder reduction (51.0 to 42.5) the SD and ES were comparable to factory. I see no ignition problems.

- There has been some speculation on this thread about the burn speed of this factory powder. I still don't think it's as slow as a 4350 powder. I looked in my manuals (most admittedly not a comprehensive collection) and I just don't see 4350/RL17 burn speed with 150gr bullets and the velocities claimed by the factory (and verified by my chrono). I think this powder is in the 4895/Varget range.

-The factory round was fairly well centered at 50 yds, with the sights at 100. As I went down in velocity, the rounds started going to the right several inches. I reset the front sight to compensate. Then the rounds started hitting higher and higher. I eventually had to aim about 6" low to hit 2" above the X. I saw no indication of the bullets being unstable. All the holes were round.

- The 42.5gr round was by far the most accurate. I wasn't really shooting for groups, mostly trying to not hit the chrono, but still the lowest velocity was the most accurate. Just for grins, a pic of the 42.5gr target. 50 yds, 60 year old eyes, iron battle sights. POA was the bottom of the orange circle. That's 4 in 1 3/8".

 

[fpgt72]

I don't want to poo poo the OP, but just bringing this up as a question:

What did you learn from this that will help you going forward, you said the 42 grain was the most accurate.....so can we infer (I don't think so) that your gun likes to fling bullets at around 2300 fps. I don't think we can make this claim. You don't know what the burn rate, how fast, how slow the factory powder is, so if you mix up a batch with (pick your powder) to fling the bullet at 2300 It could put you in the ball park....but then again it might not.

In my playing I have found some guns like Varget, some 4895 and others 3031.....my model 8 & 81 love 3031 and will fling them all over the paper with the two other (common) powders....and this is with bullets shot at the same speeds....no idea why it is what it is. Most of my old military rifles will eat both 4895 and varget with no real care....both about the same.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

What did I learn from this ? Well...

I have 600 rounds of the PPU factory ammo. I need some brass for my recently acquired rifle. I don't want to buy it if I already have it. I also don't want to shoot 2800+ fps ammo at a club military match.
I wanted a way to download the factory ammo, and have dedicated brass for this rifle.
I learned a way to do that.

Also, I learned that even as this is a forum for discussion of handloading and reloading techniques and practices, there are some who aren't interested in what I'm doing.

That's fine. Just read it and move on. Or don't read it.

 

[Charlie98]

I thought it was interesting how far the drop off was in velocity with the initial 4grn drop, after that they were pretty much linear.

 

[fpgt72]

What did I learn from this ? Well...

I have 600 rounds of the PPU factory ammo. I need some brass for my recently acquired rifle. I don't want to buy it if I already have it. I also don't want to shoot 2800+ fps ammo at a club military match.
I wanted a way to download the factory ammo, and have dedicated brass for this rifle.
I learned a way to do that.

Also, I learned that even as this is a forum for discussion of handloading and reloading techniques and practices, there are some who aren't interested in what I'm doing.

That's fine. Just read it and move on. Or don't read it.

So you are going to pull down 600 rounds, pile all the boolits in one pile then all the powder in another pile and remake all of it again to what you want.

My time is worth the cost of buying just brass and bullets.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

My time is worth the cost of buying just brass and bullets.

And powder. Don't forget the powder.
45 grains x 600 rounds is over 3.75 pounds of powder that you'll need to buy. At $20/lb, that's almost $80.

Please, do with your time as you see fit. I'm merely showing what is possible. One needn't be trapped into shooting factory velocities, even if all one has is factory rounds.

There are many facets to this hobby, I think there's room enough for us all.

I just came into a 6.5x55 Swede, a M96 from 1900. The Swedes load their 140gr military rounds to ~2350 fps.
The factory rounds I can find are loaded hotter, to 2600+ fps. I don't wish to shoot those hotter rounds in a nearly 120 year old rifle, even if the rifle can take it.

I think I'll do a little chrono work, and reduce the factory powder enough to get what I want. I have 200 to work with.

 

[fpgt72]

Hay if you enjoy this more power to you.....just one question do you love trimming brass.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

So you are going to pull down 600 rounds, pile all the boolits in one pile then all the powder in another pile and remake all of it again to what you want.

My time is worth the cost of buying just brass and bullets.

My time is worth more than the cost of bullets and Brass as well. However maybe the OP is retired or filthy rich and doesn't have to work. Reloading is just as much of a hobby to me as shooting and there's definitely enough room for all of us in this hobby. While I would advise him to be very careful with reducing charges in Factory ammo, he seems to be going about it the right way and isn't displaying any outwardly unsafe reloading practices so more power to him.
Personally I would pull them and just dump the powder but I see nothing wrong with the way he's doing it.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I am not retired, I am a blue-collar working stiff, although I am self-employed.
And, I can assure you, I am not filthy rich, or even rich. My income is below the median in even my relatively poor state. I would qualify for rent subsidies, if I chose to live in the crime infested city.

I will say that, after many years of reloading, one can tire of banging out the same rounds to shoot in the same guns.
Experimentation can bring new life in an old hobby. New viewpoints, new loads.

As long as safety protocols are followed, I see no harm. I am not using any new techniques. I am following established, albeit advanced, procedures.

And, I'm enjoying it.