practical .380 use?

[Fastcast]

Where did I say "all?" I didn't. A Beretta 84, dandy gun tho it may be, is pretty chunky when compared to a Keltec, Kahr or Ruger .380, among others.

In MY book, why would I carry a Beretta 84 when I could carry a more powerful gun that is smaller, thinner and lighter?

Ummmm....Maybe because it's in a different league, than those guns mentioned, as far as build quality, reliability and capacity. I also owned this gun before all the little micro .380s hit the market and it's a fine weapon, that will kill a man dead.....Regardless of what you think.

I guess if you have fat, stubby, chunky little fingers and hands, you may find the ergonomics of the 84 chunky. I don't have fat, stubby, little fingers so I don't find it chunky.

Look, you guys that want to carry a .380 or .32 or spitballs, go ahead. But don't try to convince the rest of us, as you apparently have convinced yourself, that they are "just as effective" as more powerful calibers just because you have "full confidence" in it. That just makes you look silly!

I've never said they're as effective as a .45 or other larger calibers. I'm saying if you were to take even 1 "spitball" to your vitals, someone would most likely be calling your loved ones. You're the one who comes across as a silly jackass to even insinuate that .380 is equivalent to a "spitball"......Like I said "caliber snob"......Shoot what you want, I really could care less. I haven't tried to convince anyone .380 is a .45.....I just said I'm confident I can defend myself with a quality .380 pistol.

For the record....Sergeant York's son said his father carried a .32 CZ for SD after the war, not the .45 1911.....Oh, the irony.

 

[Weevil]

I own a Beretta 84 and the pistol is a straight blow back design. The barrel is removable for cleaning (not pinned) but there is nothing tilting about it. Trust me.

I've agreed with a good part of what you've said in this thread, as far as the caliber snobs go but you're incorrect about the Beretta/Browning design.

Yes you're right!


My mistake.


It's just they're such a soft shooter and don't have the traditional fixed barrel of a typical blowback, but yes they are indeed a blowback design, but not the usual Walther PP clone.

I suspect the large size and wide grip are what contribute to the minimal felt-recoil.



I did notice the PK380 is even softer shooting although it is lighter and has a thinner grip, and it's much easier to rack the slide on than the BDA I had, that would explain why.

 

[David E]

Maybe because it's in a different league, than those guns mentioned, as far as build quality, reliability and capacity.

Back in 1976 when the Beretta 84 was new, it DID have a place in the overall scheme of things. Subcompact Glocks, Kahrs, EMP's, etc, did not yet exist. So if you wanted a mid-sized gun, a large .380 that held a lotta rounds made more sense than, perhaps, a 5-shot .38 snub. But, that was then, this is now. For the same weight, size and bulk, if not less, I could carry a more powerful caliber. My power-floor is 9mm+P JHP and there is no need whatsoever to go under it.

I also owned this gun before all the little micro .380s hit the market and it's a fine weapon, that will kill a man dead.....Regardless of what you think.

Hell, I KNOW it'll kill a man dead. That's the caliber used to kill the aforementioned Sgt. But that it can kill isn't the point. A knitting needle can kill.......so what? My goal is to stop the guy from trying to kill me. Therefore, I want something that will STOP the badguy sooner rather than later. But your goals may be different.

I've never said they're as effective as a .45 or other larger calibers. I'm saying if you were to take even 1 "spitball" to your vitals, someone would most likely be calling your loved ones.

Maybe you haven't, but some in this thread have, as have many others in threads past. No one cares how much "confidence" you may have in your gun or caliber. It's being able to put the round where it'll have the most effect in the shortest time. The smaller you go in caliber/power, the more precise you must be in placing those rounds.

You're the one who comes across as a silly jackass to even insinuate that .380 is equivalent to a "spitball"......

Quite the "High Roader," aren't you ! Look, I didn't say the .380 is equal to a spitball or vice versa (please re-read the post) I listed a spitball in addition to the .380 and .32 to include .25 acp or even .22 short, as others have stated they carry, either in this or other threads. You sure are touchy.

Like I said "caliber snob"......

With all due respect, that title belongs to you. Maybe "Caliber Elitist" might fit better, since you seem to dismiss any large caliber as overkill. Apparently, you think that only a great shot under pressure can make a .380 work for them when micro-seconds count when someone is actively trying to kill you. The lesser skilled, by your standard, must use larger calibers.....

I just said I'm confident I can defend myself with a quality .380 pistol.

Frankly, no one cares how "confident" you are with a .380. It only matters how fast you can put the shot(s) where they must go to be effective in the shortest amount of time. And, again, the smaller you go in caliber and power, the more precisely you must place your shot(s) to be to be effective. I hope you're up to the task.

For the record....Sergeant York's son said his father carried a .32 CZ for SD after the war, not the .45 1911.....

So? I've long held that any gun with you beats any gun not. If you'll carry a .380 or .32 or even .25 acp, then that beats the .45 acp you left at home. Maybe it'll be enough to get you back there.....

 

[Weevil]

Frankly, no one cares how "confident" you are with a .380. It only matters how fast you can put the shot(s) where they must go to be effective in the shortest amount of time.

Exactly and that is why very few people carry a .44 magnum for SD purposes.

It's certainly a manstopper that has your common pistol calibers beat eight ways to Sunday, but with that power comes fierce recoil and muzzle-rise making it difficult to shoot quickly and accurately especially in any sort of CCW size weapon.


So at what point do we stop sacrificing power for control???

9mm?

Come on we all know 9mm is a wimpy round and is not as effective as a .45 or even a .40, and 10mm beats them all.

So why carry some wimpy 9mm when you could be carrying a real man's caliber, even with +P ammo it's still not the most effective.

And, again, the smaller you go in caliber and power, the more precisely you must place your shot(s) to be to be effective. I hope you're up to the task.

Me too!!!

 

[David E]

So at what point do we stop sacrificing power for control???

9mm?

At least one in this thread draws their line at .32 acp.

Some in other threads draw their line with 2 shots of .22 rimfire in a High Standard derringer. (double )

Come on we all know 9mm is a wimpy round and is not as effective as a .45 or even a .40, and 10mm beats them all.

So why carry some wimpy 9mm when you could be carrying a real man's caliber, even with +P ammo it's still not the most effective.

My carry gun right now is a compact, lightweight .45 acp. It's small and light enough for me to carry comfortably and I shoot it fairly well. But I've carried a small, light 9mm before and would do so again. For me, there is no reason to go below 9mm Parabellum power, ever.

The best defensive use for the .380 caliber is two fold:

1) In pocket guns, ideally as a backup.

2) The larger guns like the Beretta if someone can't handle anything larger. (altho this is usually, but not always, a matter of technique, or lack thereof)


a

 

[Weevil]

At least one in this thread draw their line at .32 acp.

Some in other threads draw their line with 2 shots of .22 rimfire in a High Standard derringer.

Well for a round to be effective you of course need good shot-placement and also penetration to hit those vital organs you're aiming at.

The problem with a .22 or a .25 is that they lack the power and bullet weight for adequate penetration, heavy clothing, bone, or even an obese attacker, can cause them to come up short.

A .32 also suffers from a lack of power and having a light bullet with very little momentum to carry it deep into the target and the added drawback of a semi-rimmed case that can cause feed problems.

.380 with an FMJ is my own minimum. With an FMJ the .380 gets decent penetration through light clothing, but it really doesn't have the power or bullet weight to drive an expanding bullet deep into a target.

My carry gun right now is a compact, lightweight .45 acp. It's small and light enough for me to carry comfortably and I shoot it fairly well. But I've carried a small, light 9mm before and would do so again. For me, there is no reason to go below 9mm Parabellum power, ever.

Well that's my gripe with small .45s I can shoot them "fairly" well too, but not as quickly or as accurately as I can with a smaller less powerful caliber in the same sort of small lightweight pistol.

So it goes back to do I want a potent caliber I can shoot "fairly" well or a lesser caliber that I can shoot really well.


To me personally there is no magic power level that suddenly and abrubtly stops at 9mm.

9mm is simply the smallest caliber that will reliably expand a hollow-point in service size pistols, and even then the penetration can be a bit lacking. That's why we have +P ammo to give the expanding bullet from a 9mm HP better penetration.

Of course if you use FMJ this is not an issue and the 9mm will have plenty of penetration, and with good shot placement it will be lethal as proven on many a battlefield over the last century.

Well a .380 is the same exact diameter and while not as powerful it will with FMJ have good penetration and with proper shot-placement will also be lethal.


Now I would agree that 9mm is the bare minimum for using HPs but let's keep in mind HPs are notorious for not expanding. I don't have a link but as I recall even premium HPs only expand roughly 70% of the time. They have a bad habit of clogging up with clothing and failling to expand thus acting like FMJ anyway. And let's also keep in mind that out of the short barrel of a CCW type pistol there will be even less velocity to expand the HP.

And let's say they do expand what is it you gain over FMJ?

A slightly more severe wound?

Yes you will increase wound volume with an HP but unless it's in a vital area this isn't gonna help much.

Certainlly not penetration as the expanding bullet acts like a parachute that slows and stops the bullet as it travels through the target. Many of the early HP designs for 9mm were woefully inadequate when it came to penetration, so choose your ammo wisely and stick to modern premium HP bullets and in a CCW pistol you might want to consider using ammo specifically designed for short barrels.


Psychological?

This is perhaps an HPs greatest advantage the ability to let an attacker actually know they've been shot. It hurts more to get hit by one. This is also most likely the reason a .45 is a better "stopper" HP or FMJ, it's a big slow moving bullet that hurts like the Dickens as it grinds through your body. But still you can't count on psychological effects on a truly determined or intoxicated attacker who's so pumped up on adrenalin or dope that they feel no pain.


Now if we look at it from a purely lethal, stop them by death point of view, all that's really gonna work is shot placement and penetration.

So if a smaller caliber than 9mm can be shot accurately and has adequate penetration to hit vital organs why should we scoff at it and doubts it's abilities to be lethal???


Not just trying to argue but I don't really understand why you have this line in the sand you're drawing at 9mm?


Why not go below 9mm "ever" if the caliber will give adequate penetration?

 

[David E]

Well that's my gripe with small .45s I can shoot them "fairly" well too, but not as quickly or as accurately as I can with a smaller less powerful caliber in the same sort of small lightweight pistol.

So it goes back to do I want a potent caliber I can shoot "fairly" well or a lesser caliber that I can shoot really well.

This is a matter of technique and practice. Let's define "control" and "fairly well," as these terms mean very different things to people. Here's what I did recently with my Kimber 4" Compact Aluminum stainless loaded with FMJ equivalent ammo:



Range was 5 yds, start position was hand on holstered gun. I used a shot timer, not a stopwatch. At the random signal, I drew and fired 5 rounds. (I was comparing to a 5-shot snub) The 1.35 means I reacted to the beep and fired those five shots on paper in 1.35 seconds, total elapsed time.

But let's define "fairly well" as being able to put 5 rds on a sheet of typing paper in 2 seconds or less, starting at high or low ready. (I'll leave out the draw, here)

Maybe we can define "really well" as firing 6 rounds on a sheet of typing paper at 5 yds, from the holster, hands starting at sides. (if I use this definition, then I must confess that I actually shoot that Kimber "really well.")

These skill levels can be acheived with 9mm or larger, by anyone willing to learn the proper technique and put in a bit of practice.

If anyone would like to offer their idea of these skill levels, please present it.

To me personally there is no magic power level that suddenly and abrubtly stops at 9mm.

There is that thing known as foot pounds of energy. The best .380 load churns up all of 220 ft lbs, while a 9mm more than doubles it at 466 ft lbs. (Corbon 90 grain .380 vs. Corbon 115 JHP) Using your preferred FMJ load, however, the foot pounds drops to 192 or so. You might add some to the .380 from a longer barrel and subtract a touch from a shorter 9mm, but never the twain shall meet. The 9mm will always be ballistically superior to the .380

My modest testing of this Corbon 9mm load has shown me that it'll expand just fine, even thru multiple layers of denim. One thing I'll gain over fmj (which I'm not a fan of) is more transfer of the energy into the target. In addition, a bigger, badder hole which to bleed more from.

So if a smaller caliber than 9mm can be shot accurately and has adequate penetration to hit vital organs why should we scoff at it and doubts it's abilities to be lethal???

No one is arguing lethality. it IS lethal. But I want more than having the guy die in the parking lot after chopping me up into little pieces with his machete. You see, I want a better chance at stopping him before he completes the act I'm shooting him for. Now, I understand that "stopping power" is largely a myth, but I want to stack the deck in my favor as best I can.

Placement is key, as even a .25 acp in the eye will stop most any fight. But what about when you're shooting center mass and he moves, you move and your shot hits 3" wide of your mark? I doubt that many people would argue an FMJ with less than 1/2 the energy of a JHP will be "just as effective" as the JHP that has more than twice the .380 energy.

why not go below 9mm "ever" if the caliber will give adequate penetration?

First of all, I don't agree with your premise that a .380 DOES have enough power for "adequate penetration" in all plausible defense scenarios.

Second of all, why would I want to carry a .380 when I can carry a 9mm/.40 that's the same size and weight, if not less?

 

[David E]

A .32 also suffers from a lack of power and having a light bullet with very little momentum to carry it deep into the target and the added drawback of a semi-rimmed case that can cause feed problems.

Hey.............wait a minute............ what if the .32 carrier has "full confidence" in it? Does that change the power, momentum and penetration issues?

 

[huntsman]

Second of all, why would I want to carry a .380 when I can carry a 9mm/.40 that's the same size and weight, if not less?

This stuff never ends.

I'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .380acp is just to piss-off all those who think I shouldn’t.

 

[Fastcast]

Back in 1976 when the Beretta 84 was new, it DID have a place in the overall scheme of things. Subcompact Glocks, Kahrs, EMP's, etc, did not yet exist. So if you wanted a mid-sized gun, a large .380 that held a lotta rounds made more sense than, perhaps, a 5-shot .38 snub. But, that was then, this is now. For the same weight, size and bulk, if not less, I could carry a more powerful caliber. My power-floor is 9mm+P JHP and there is no need whatsoever to go under it.

For the record....The 84 is my wife's (I have to admit carring it at times) and she's very efficient with it. As a matter of fact she was the best shot of 16 people at the CC course, with her 84. Most of guys just rolled their eyes at her golf ball size, ragged hole. The instructor even said, "gentleman you wouldn't want to mess with this lady".......It may be outdated and insufficient to you but I can assure you anyone that messes with her will regret the 285gr. (95gr X 3) burst that suddenly has ruined their day.

With that said, you're correct the 84 is large by today's standards, for a .380 and she has had her eye on the LCP for summer. We just picked one up Tues. but she claims she's still going to carry the 84 in winter.....We'll see.

Hell, I KNOW it'll kill a man dead. That's the caliber used to kill the aforementioned Sgt. But that it can kill isn't the point. A knitting needle can kill.......so what? My goal is to stop the guy from trying to kill me. Therefore, I want something that will STOP the badguy sooner rather than later. But your goals may be different.

What?.....York was never shot and killed with .32 or .380.

"The last ten years of Alvin York's life were spent in bed or occasionally in a wheelchair for short periods of time. These were years of pain and suffering, but he maintained a keen interest in his world until the end was near. For more than ten years his body had been wracked with pain and he was virtually blind. His doctors agreed that the complications which he suffered would have killed a man of lesser fortitude long before they killed Alvin York. He was hospitalized ten times in the last two years of his life. Finally the old soldier just faded away for "old Soldiers never die; they simply fade away." The end came for Sgt. Alvin C. York at the Veterans Hospital in Nashville, Tennessee on September 2, 1964, at the age of 76 years. "

With all due respect, that title belongs to you. Maybe "Caliber Elitist" might fit better, since you seem to dismiss any large caliber as overkill. Apparently, you think that only a great shot under pressure can make a .380 work for them when micro-seconds count when someone is actively trying to kill you. The lesser skilled, by your standard, must use larger calibers.....

Did you fall and hit your head?.....I never said such non-sense. I love the .45 too and have it as well and still do carry .45 sometimes, just not always.....I believe I can get the job done, no matter what I carry, you don't. That's the difference between you and me. Confidence in MY ability, not the caliber I carry.

Frankly, no one cares how "confident" you are with a .380. It only matters how fast you can put the shot(s) where they must go to be effective in the shortest amount of time. And, again, the smaller you go in caliber and power, the more precisely you must place your shot(s) to be to be effective. I hope you're up to the task.

So it sounds like you're NOT confident in your own ability to place accurate shots under pressure so you compensate with a larger caliber. Sounds like insecurity to me and I know these types all too well. Back a many of years ago when I was heavily into sports, there was always the guys that were unsure of their ability and they were always the ones who couldn't get the job done. ....... Confidence inspires greatness!


I really have no desire to carry on this conversation with you.....It's obvious you lack confidence in your ability to get the job done with anything but the largest of calibers so you have a false sense of security that you'll wound them more with a bigger slug so they'll just give up.....LOL....As someone else said, it's about accurate shots to vital areas, not big holes in arms, shoulders or shins.

We have a philosophical difference and I doubt we'll ever agree but go ahead and continue to blather on. I think I've made my point and I understand yours quite well.....Good day and God Bless.

 

[Holgersen]

My advice would be to use the money that you will save by NOT getting a .380 and get a nicer gun in a better caliber.

Seriously. I just can't think of a real reason to buy a .380 anymore. I think the gun magazines have people brainwashed. Three years ago you couldn't give .380 away where I live and now you can't find it.

I don't have the time or the money to run around looking for it. If you do than you can afford something nicer than a Bersa .380.

 

[christcorp]

A .32 also suffers from a lack of power and having a light bullet with very little momentum to carry it deep into the target and the added drawback of a semi-rimmed case that can cause feed problems.

Gotta love ignorance and double-speak. So, the FBI's recommendation of penetrating at least 12" is good for other calibers, but NOT for the 32acp??? Hmmm; so, when the AVERAGE FMJ 32acp penetrates 14-15 inches, "That's not good"??? When they make HP ammo that can penetrate 10-12", "That's not good"??? When companies like Buffalo-Bore make rounds that are even hotter, "That's not good"???

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm

I love how people rationalize. If it isn't what you shoot, or it isn't what you spent your money on, and it doesn't coincide with your opinion to make you appear to be an expert on the subject; then it MUST BE WRONG. Whether it's a 32acp for self defense, or a Hi-Point pistol compared to a glock. Hate to tell some of you "Experts", but the 32acp "Can" be a very effective self defense cartridge. I say "CAN", because there are variables and limitations. I never said there weren't. E.g. I would not use my 32acp in the middle of winter when my potential target is most likely wearing a very heavy parka type winter coat. Where I live, it easily gets below 0 degrees. However, in the summer, when people are wearing no more than a t-shirt or wind-breaker, I have total confidence in the 32acp.

And while we're at it, the people who say a 380acp is only really good as a "Backup" gun. If that isn't the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard. People dog the 380 crowd because they say that you can easily get a 9mm pistol that's the same size and such as a 380. Well, if that's true, and they're carrying the smaller 9mm being talked about, then why not have the same type of pistol as a backup? If a gun/caliber is good enough to be a backup, it's good enough to be your carry weapon. If you think it has limitations for carrying, then you shouldn't be carrying it even as a backup.

And hell, I'm pissed and on a roll, might as well get the "We are equal to Police" crap out of the way too. No, as a civilian "Potential Victim" you do NOT have the same threats against you or the same similar scenarios that police, military, and other similar agencies have against them. Those people are in positions of authority. Their mere presence alone instills people to automatically become defensive in nature. Even criminals. And it's not uncommon for a criminal to respond defensively towards police and authorities. But these law enforcement type agencies are openly and offensively entering into a situation. Yes, it can be defensive in nature by shooting back at someone, but it isn't like the criminals are going around trying to Rob, Mug, Rape, etc... police officers. Which leads to the common "victim" and why we conceal carry. These criminals have accessed you as their target. They do not believe that there is a good chance that you are armed or that you will even try and fight back. If they were confident that you might, they would almost definitely choose an easier and more likely victim/target. These criminals are definitely offensive in nature. And the minute you present a firearm, this is NOT what they expected. That alone will eliminate the threat more than 95% of the time. Even none monetary crimes where the bad guy KNOWS the victim. They are not expecting the victim to be armed and willing to draw and fire that gun. Sorry, but the scenarios and situations of a typical civilian/potential victim is NOT the same as the local police, sheriff, military, or other similarly related agencies.

 

[David E]

Weevil asked: Not just trying to argue but I don't really understand why you have this line in the sand you're drawing at 9mm?

David E replied: Second of all, why would I want to carry a .380 when I can carry a 9mm/.40 that's the same size and weight, if not less?

Huntsman states: I'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .380acp is just to piss-off all those who think I shouldn’t.

1) The post to which you refer was my response to him asking why _I_ draw the line at 9mm.

2) I don't care what you carry!

3) Reading the posts in sequence and context might help in understanding them....

 

[pockets]

I'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .380acp is just to piss-off all those who think I shouldn’t.

Amen.

 

[FLAvalanche]

This stuff never ends.

I'm starting to think the best reason to carry a .380acp is just to piss-off all those who think I shouldn’t.

In the eternal words of Cousin Eddie...BINGO!

 

[David E]

David E wrote: I KNOW it'll (the .380 caliber) kill a man dead. That's the caliber used to kill the aforementioned Sgt.

What?.....York was never shot and killed with .32 or .380.

I never said York, nor was I referring to him. I was referring the the Sgt in our department that was killed that I mentioned in post #125. Did you even read it?

I believe I can get the job done, no matter what I carry, you don't. That's the difference between you and me. Confidence in MY ability, not the caliber I carry.

Yeah, but will that "confidence" carry you thru.....when you get hit with a harsh does of reality?

We've all seen the "Yeah, I can do that with one hand tied behind my back, faster and better than you, etc, etc, etc." types. They always have one thing in common: they're a legend in their own mind.

Some try to BS their way thru, hoping you'll buy their line, but deep down, they know it's a line they're trying to sell. These guys usually shut up when you compare skills and best them, but not before the excuses start. ("the sun was in my eyes, I wasn't ready, you cheated," etc, etc)

But some.......some of them actually believe the line they're selling. You'll never hear the end of how good or "confident" they are, since they are soooo much more skilled than the next guy...maybe specifically you. But try and get them to show off that skill! Oh, no, they have "no need to showboat," or company rules prohibit them from showing off their skills. (I've actually heard these excuses) Regardless, they assure you (and mostly themselves) that they are, indeed, very highly skilled.

I posted a picture of what I did with a compact lightweight .45, detailing the parameters as to how I did it. (I even had a witness) Where is their picture? Where is their proof? Exactly. Don't hold your breath waiting for it. Why go out and perform a simple drill when blustering arrogance might suffice online?

So it sounds like you're NOT confident in your own ability to place accurate shots under pressure ....

Wow, that's so me. How about we agree on a plausible self defense scenario that has the gun starting in the holster, hands at sides.

I'll pose this one: 3 IPSC or IDPA targets placed at 5 yds, one foot apart from each other, edge to edge. Using a shot timer, at the random signal, draw and engage each target with 2 shots each. Add 1/2 second to the time for each point dropped.

If your range facilities don't make that feasible, then let's do 6 shots on ONE 5 yard target. Again, gun holstered, hands at sides.

A shot timer must be used. Surely, a serious handgunner such as yourself either owns one or can borrow one.

If you don't have access to those targets, staple sheets of typing paper to some cardboard at chest height.

Now, if I use a more powerful caliber than your .380 and beat your time, what would that tell you?

Let me be blunt: I highly doubt you can beat me, regardless of caliber. Use a .22 if you wish, it won't matter. I'm not suggesting the "challenge" to represent an "I'm better than you" kind of thing, I'm issuing it hoping you'll do it and discover where your actual abilities really are. I suspect they're not where you thinkthey are. Maybe you'll practice some more and improve your skill level, no matter where it is. I'd call that a "win-win."

So, if I can remove any pressure and get you or anyone else to do it, that'd be great!


I just hope the excuses don't start. ("I'm too busy, I already know what I can do, I have no need to show off," etc, etc, etc)

 

[Weevil]

This is a matter of technique and practice. Let's define "control" and "fairly well," as these terms mean very different things to people. Here's what I did recently with my Kimber 4" Compact Aluminum stainless loaded with FMJ equivalent ammo:

Range was 5 yds, start position was hand on holstered gun. I used a shot timer, not a stopwatch. At the random signal, I drew and fired 5 rounds. (I was comparing to a 5-shot snub) The 1.35 means I reacted to the beep and fired those five shots on paper in 1.35 seconds, total elapsed time.

But let's define "fairly well" as being able to put 5 rds on a sheet of typing paper in 2 seconds or less, starting at high or low ready. (I'll leave out the draw, here)

Maybe we can define "really well" as firing 6 rounds on a sheet of typing paper at 5 yds, from the holster, hands starting at sides. (if I use this definition, then I must confess that I actually shoot that Kimber "really well.")

These skill levels can be acheived with 9mm or larger, by anyone willing to learn the proper technique and put in a bit of practice.

If anyone would like to offer their idea of these skill levels, please present it.

Well that is some good shooting but come on Dave do you really consider that big ol' honkin metal and wood pistol a small thin lightweight CCW pistol???

Seriously it's just a bobbed version of a full-size pistol. If I was gonna carry something that big and heavy I'd want a .45 too!

There is that thing known as foot pounds of energy. The best .380 load churns up all of 220 ft lbs, while a 9mm more than doubles it at 466 ft lbs. (Corbon 90 grain .380 vs. Corbon 115 JHP) Using your preferred FMJ load, however, the foot pounds drops to 192 or so. You might add some to the .380 from a longer barrel and subtract a touch from a shorter 9mm, but never the twain shall meet. The 9mm will always be ballistically superior to the .380

My modest testing of this Corbon 9mm load has shown me that it'll expand just fine, even thru multiple layers of denim. One thing I'll gain over fmj (which I'm not a fan of) is more transfer of the energy into the target. In addition, a bigger, badder hole which to bleed more from.

Yes the 9mm is a more potent round but once again that power comes with a price, that being less control in a "small" pistol of the same size and weight.

In a big service size pistol that gives good control for the caliber there is no doubt you're better served with the 9mm.

However in a small lightweight pistol the 9mm is difficult to control and shoot effectively, so do we stick with a the more powerful round even if we are sacrificing control??

To be effective we must be able to actually hit the target who like you say may well be moving as you may well be. Do we want to try and hit that moving target with a pistol that's difficult to shoot just because the rounds have more power???

Remember we're talking small lightweight CCW pistols not big ol' metal and wood compacts.

No one is arguing lethality. it IS lethal. But I want more than having the guy die in the parking lot after chopping me up into little pieces with his machete. You see, I want a better chance at stopping him before he completes the act I'm shooting him for. Now, I understand that "stopping power" is largely a myth, but I want to stack the deck in my favor as best I can.

Placement is key, as even a .25 acp in the eye will stop most any fight. But what about when you're shooting center mass and he moves, you move and your shot hits 3" wide of your mark? I doubt that many people would argue an FMJ with less than 1/2 the energy of a JHP will be "just as effective" as the JHP that has more than twice the .380 energy.

Well I define "stopping power" as the ability to stop an attacker without necessarily killing them, and there is no doubt that larger more powerful calibers are more effective at this.

You will indeed lose this ability with the smaller caliber and have to rely on precise and lethal hits and you may well wind up battling it out hand-to-hand if that fails. Being fit and healthy and knowing how to fight are also good skills to posess. It doesn't hurt to have a pocket knife either.

If you want better odds carry a full-size service pistol in a potent caliber on your hip and not some itty-bitty little CCW pistol in your pocket.

First of all, I don't agree with your premise that a .380 DOES have enough power for "adequate penetration" in all plausible defense scenarios.

Second of all, why would I want to carry a .380 when I can carry a 9mm/.40 that's the same size and weight, if not less?

No .380 does not work for "all plausible defense scenarios" that's why I only use it for CCW in small lightweight pistols.

I carry it because I can control it better in these type of "small" pistols.

It's not the best caliber for all situations but it does offer a good balance of power and control in small lightweight CCW type pistols.

 

[easyg]

And hell, I'm pissed and on a roll, might as well get the "We are equal to Police" crap out of the way too. No, as a civilian "Potential Victim" you do NOT have the same threats against you or the same similar scenarios that police, military, and other similar agencies have against them.

What?!?!
You can't be serious.


It is true that the military, DURING COMBAT, will face threats that the average citizen will never face (artillery barrage, hand grenades, RPG's, roadside bombs, crew served weapons fire, sniper fire, chemical attacks, etc...whatever).


But the police don't face any threats that the average non-cop doesn't face.
The self defense needs of the cop are no greater than the self defense needs of the non-cop.
And when faced with a deadly threat you can bet that the cop wants to stop that threat ASAP.
This is why they carry firearms.
And when the average non-cop is faced with a deadly threat you can bet that he too will want to stop that threat ASAP.


As we all know, handguns are a compromise....we all want something that is powerful enough to stop a threat, yet controllable enough for accurate and quick shooting.
Luckily, others have already paved the way for us in discovering what calibers are controllable, yet consistently effective....and the .380 aint one of them.


There is a very good reason cops today don't rely upon .380 pistols, and even weaker handguns, to quickly stop threats....
Policing today is the result of knowledge garnered from centuries of prior police work.
And over the years it has been learned that the .380 (and weaker calibers) perform very poorly at quickly stopping human threats.

If you want to carry a .380, that's fine with me.
But don't come on a forum and make statements that might mislead a novice to shooting....
Statements declaring that the .380 is just as effective as a 9mm (or more powerful caliber) for self defense.
It just aint true.



Easy

 

[Holgersen]

Does anyone else think it's funny that this is like a 9mm vs. .45 thread but with .380 vs. everything else?

I still think .380 is too expensive to be worth it. At least for me.

Why are we arguing about this when we could be spending so much more constructive time arguing on the thread about Stephen Kings Dark Tower series and whether he has any idea what he is talking about when it comes to guns?

 

[easyg]

However in a small lightweight pistol the 9mm is difficult to control and shoot effectively, so do we stick with a the more powerful round even if we are sacrificing control??

What small light-weight 9mm pistols are you referring to?

I have never shot any small light-weight 9mm pistol that was any more difficult to control, or shoot effectively, than the average small light-weight .380 pistol.
And some small 9mm pistols (like the Glock 26) are very easy to shoot effectively and accurately.

 

[FLAvalanche]

But the police don't face any threats that the average non-cop doesn't face.

I had to quit reading there. You don't honestly believe that do you?

Sorry but when was the last time you pulled over a car full of thugs willing to protect the $100,000 worth of heroin in the trunk? When was the last time you were called to a domestic dispute on the wrong side of town? When was the last time you had to serve a warrant to a 3rd strike felon who is going to do anything in his power to keep from going to jail.

I'm not a cop. I've never done any of that...Saying that civilians face the same threats as cops just deserves the BS flag run up the pole.

 

[easyg]

Sorry but when was the last time you pulled over a car full of thugs willing to protect the $100,000 worth of heroin in the trunk?

The average cop will make his entire career in the force and never see that.
And they have the means to run the tag which can often give them a heads-up about what they might be facing.
And some of us live in neighborhoods where we encounter thugs everyday.

When was the last time you were called to a domestic dispute on the wrong side of town?

Heck, I've been IN a domestic disturbance on the wrong side of town!

When was the last time you had to serve a warrant to a 3rd strike felon who is going to do anything in his power to keep from going to jail.

And how often do they send a lone cop to serve such a felon?
When the cops think they are likely to encounter strong resistance, they always bring back up.

I'm not a cop. I've never done any of that...

I also bet you don't wear ballistic armor like cops do.
And I'll also bet you don't have a radio that you can call for back up when you encounter trouble....you can always call 911 and take your chances on how long it will take them to get there, but the cop in distress gets number one priority.
Maybe you just live in a very safe place or grew up with a sheltered life?

I don't have any beef with cops, but it aint like the movies, they don't really face any threats that the average Joe doesn't face.
Who do you think is more likely to get shot, a cop, or a third shift 7-11 store worker?

 

[David E]

Well that is some good shooting but come on Dave do you really consider that big ol' honkin metal and wood pistol a small thin lightweight CCW pistol???

The slide width, the part that goes inside my pants, is .920" thick. The grips are 1.056", so yeah, it's thinner than the 84, which comes in at 1.4" thick. It weighs about 27 oz, or only 3.7 oz more than the Beretta 84. It's just an inch longer than the 84 and it's a touch shorter height-wise than the 84.

Remember we're talking small lightweight CCW pistols not big ol' metal and wood compacts.

It appears we have different ideas of what "small, lightweight and thin" mean.

The Kimber Compact is merely the gun I'm carrying now, I wasn't really trying to compare it directly to the 84, altho it looks to compare quite favorably. The gun I would compare directly is the Kahr P-9. That gun is significantly lighter, shorter both in length and height and is thinner. And while it holds fewer rounds, each round has more than twice the energy of the .380. The Springfield EMP also compares quite favorably to the 84.

Seriously it's just a bobbed version of a full-size pistol. If I was gonna carry something that big and heavy I'd want a .45 too!

If I was going to carry a gun as big, heavy and as thick as a Beretta 84, I'd want it to at least be a 9mm. But that's me.

Yes the 9mm is a more potent round but once again that power comes with a price, that being less control in a "small" pistol of the same size and weight.

I'm glad you agree that it's a more potent round. Not everyone in this thread would acknowledge that fact!

As far as "control," I will put my "lighter-than-your-84 Kahr P-9 up against your Beretta on the above suggested drills anytime. In fact, I should be able to set it up this weekend, if not Friday. I'll post my results. What gun(s) would you like me to try?

However in a small lightweight pistol the 9mm is difficult to control and shoot effectively, so do we stick with a the more powerful round even if we are sacrificing control??

For purposes of this discussion, I defined a skill level ("control") threshold in a previous post:

But let's define "fairly well" as being able to put 5 rds on a sheet of typing paper in 2 seconds or less, starting at high or low ready. (I'll leave out the draw, here)

Maybe we can define "really well" as firing 6 rounds on a sheet of typing paper at 5 yds, from the holster, hands starting at sides. These skill levels can be acheived with 9mm or larger, by anyone willing to learn the proper technique and put in a bit of practice.

Let's use meaningful numbers instead of vague references.

With your 9mm, what are you shooting at, how far and how fast? How big is the group? How much better are you doing it with your .380?

I've said over and over, if a .380 is the largest caliber one can control, then it's a good choice for that person. It clearly beats a .32, "confidence" notwithstanding.

Weevil, I appreciate your civility in this discussion!


f

 

[Weevil]

What small light-weight 9mm pistols are you referring to?

I have never shot any small light-weight 9mm pistol that was any more difficult to control, or shoot effectively, than the average small light-weight .380 pistol.
And some small 9mm pistols (like the Glock 26) are very easy to shoot effectively and accurately.

The Kel-Tecs like the P11 and PF9 or the Rohrbaugh R9, pistols that have generally been .380 or .32 calibers in that size but are now being offered in 9mm.

A Glock 26 is just another bobbed version of a full-size pistol and certainly not a drop in your pocket type CCW.

 

[David E]

The Kel-Tecs like the P11 and PF9 or the Rohrbaugh R9, pistols that have generally been .380 or .32 calibers in that size but are now being offered in 9mm.

I have the P-11. I don't like the trigger pull, so I don't carry it. It does have its place in my modest collection, so I won't get rid of it, but it's not a gun I recommend to many.

But certainly the Kahr P-9 falls within your parameters. Being thinner and lighter than the P-11, it should be even harder to shoot, right ?