Practical SBR

[regal]

I guess what I like about my Colt M&P AR over my AK-74 is the lightweight ergonomics. But the 16" barrel just seems odd, I mean for ammo I can afford the barrel length isn't giving me any real range improvement. Thinking it would be neat to have a short pencil barrel AR.

Been kicking around the idea of getting an SBR for collection but I like my rifles to have practicality even if they will never see real duty.

Now I look at the Mk12 concept, `10" barrel with a big suppressor. Not really what I want as far as ergonomics, weight, or manuvueability. And I guess a 10 to 12" barrel 5.56 isn't practical as the percussion is so bad that a CQ SD engaguement would leave one deaf dumb and blind.

Plus I am not into spending $1 per round for bonded hp .223 rounds.

So for practicallity, I was thinking of building a 9" or so 9mm AR. I want to avoid the whole silencer hassel. Also wanted an semi MP5, this seems like a decent alternative, but how reliable are the 9mm AR's ?


The other option would be an SBR 14.5" pencil barrel with break, mid legth gas for low recoil/muzzel climb. Could be pretty darn light weight and quick to target aquisition. Not sure if the barrel is "short" enough to justify the stamp and CQC advantage, but it would be fairly versatile. Keep it light weight with a little 2oz tijjicon reflex. Very ergonomic all round - practical purchase. But may need a silencer indoors if I made it my goto HD gun ?

Last I say screw it and get an AMD-65 with a tax stamp, much better ballistics out of a short barrel than the AR alternatives. Reliable as hell (these things are being imported from Hungary with orig receiver and barrel.) But probably forget a reflex sight due to the poor ergonomics, and the weight is around 7 lbs, which is a lot for a SBR CQC and I am sure the percusion blast would paralyzing.

Last I see these G17 to SBR drop-overs. They give you a stock, rails for a reflex, vfg. But there is a lot of bad press on them. To me they seem practical as heck, but the cost is more than a 9mm AR.

Is there really a practical SBR?:banghead:

 

[LiquidTension]

I don't understand why you would go through the NFA process for an SBR but think that the same process for a silencer is a hassle? IMO, you SBR an AR specifically so you CAN run a suppressor on it and have it the same length as a 16".

A 14.5" barrel with a brake permanently attached to make the whole thing 16" doesn't require a stamp at all.

 

[regal]

A suppressor is a hassel because it weighs a ton, adds length, dirties the chamber, and they wear out. Which is why I question not just using a 9mm upper in the first place, the ballistics of a 10" .223 are very much not arguably better than a 9mm JHP moving at 1500ft/s.

A short barrel rifle isn't just for silencers, there is something called manuverability.

 

[LiquidTension]

If you want maneuverability you can't beat a pistol. If you're going to go with something shoulder mounted the 5.56 is the way to go since it has what, double the muzzle energy of a 9mm? I'm not going to look up the charts, you can do that. You seem to be set on a 9mm AR. That's fine. I'll have one some day as a range toy, but I'm not going to be using it for HD - that's what I have a suppressed 11.5" AR for. Regardless of what you get, a silencer is a wonderful tool if you ever have to fire a gun indoors. Yeah they're heavy and add length. As to your other points, guns can be cleaned and you're not likely to wear out any decent suppressor in your lifetime unless you abuse it.

 

[regal]

A pistol is actually not as manuverable as an MP5, the stock actually keeps the end of the weapon closer to the shooter than holding a pistol at arms length. Plus you can't put a red dot on a glock. Reddot/reflex optics increase manuverability considerably.


I'm not dead set on the 9mm. But a suppressed AR is really not an SBR, I mean they weigh more than a 16" carbine and are just as long. Velocity of a .223 out of a 11" barrel are so low you are relying on expensive HP expension, which really can't be more than a 9mm jhp expanded.

The whole switch from MP5 to mk18 by our public servants never made a lot of sense to me, I think it was more politcal than anything, also you really need the fed or win FBI 5.56 loads for these mk12 clones and those rounds are unobtainium.

 

[LiquidTension]

A pistol can be close to the body, fully extended, or anything in between depending on the environment. I've had to clear areas so tight that it would be impossible to navigate with an MP5 mounted, but a pistol held close to the vest works. Ever had to clear a small camper? I have. If you're only worried about clearing your own home and you have enough room to maneuver a long arm then by all means that's what you should use, but a blanket statement saying an MP5 is more maneuverable than a handgun just isn't true.

For me, once the jump is made to a shoulder fired weapon I prefer to have 30 rounds of 5.56 over 30 rounds of 9mm.

ETA: Ammo cost is only a big concern if you practice with nothing but your expensive stuff. Most people practice with cheap stuff.

 

[jmorris]

Practical depends on your use. I wanted a rifle that I could take a quick shot with and not damage my hearing further and wanted it to fit in my over head rack ready to go.

 

[wally]

Plus you can't put a red dot on a glock.

Huh?

Burris FastFire, Trijicon RMR.

 

[regal]

Ok a SBR 9mm isn't "practical" as a 9mm pistole is a better choice.

But an AR loaded with .223 from a 10.5" barrel at 2200fps muzzel vel with a 6" 1lb can isn't a SBR rifle, its a suppresed AR thats 16" from breach to muzzel and heavier than an M4.

So back to the original question what is a practical SBR?

Maybe I should consider one of the Glock conversion packages? A stock and rails can be very "practical" if the thing isn't junk, I ave no experience with them.

Or the Or the SBR AK's?

 

[dogbaloo]

Please don't be offended...but it seems you haven't a clue as to what you want. You seem to argue with yourself over the topic. "Should I or shouldn't I?" You say it's not for duty work...then who cares what caliber? Why be hung up on ballistics at all? SBR's are loud, but silencers are heavy and long...

Red dot's on pistols aren't practical, SBR's aren't practical....silencers aren't practical.

Get a German Shepard. I've got two of the long coated varieties. They are quiet when they need to be, they're heavy but I don't have to carry them, I don't need a tax stamp for them, and even though they're not intended for "duty use" they certainly will work...

 

[Al Thompson]

So back to the original question what is a practical SBR?

What are you planning to do with it that 4.5 inches will make a difference? I run 16 inch midlengths just fine. Very not worth (IMHO) the 3 month wait and 200 dollar tax stamp just to get a slightly shorter and much louder rifle.

According to this graphic Jerkface posted, the velocity drops you fear are not that bad. The 14.5 barrel of an M4 still breaks 3,000 FPS at the muzzle.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7568752&postcount=5

 

[jmorris]

But an AR loaded with .223 from a 10.5" barrel at 2200fps muzzel vel with a 6" 1lb can isn't a SBR rifle,

I wish you worked for the NFA branch, you could save a lot of folks money on what they call SBR's.

The point is to have a rifle that is hearing safe and shorter than a pool stick.

The topic was specific on SBR's but there is another way to arrive at the same goal. If you weld the can to a short barrel and wind up at 16" in the end you can save one stamp. Here is one of my 9mm AR's done that way.

 

[jmorris]

Maybe I should consider one of the Glock conversion packages? A stock and rails can be very "practical" if the thing isn't junk, I ave no experience with them.

You might just have a SBR in your future. If you put one of those kits on your glock you make it a rifle. If you convert it back to the original configuration you now have an SBR.

 

[LiquidTension]

I think the OP meant that when a can is attached it might as well not be considered "short" anymore, not that it wouldn't legally be an SBR. The conversion kits require SBR registration before installation, they're not rifles since they don't have 16" barrels. That's assuming the OP was referring to the Roni and HERA style conversions, not a Mech-Tech.

 

[RAINS]

Sbr's are great but a pain in the rear due to nfa rules. How about a bullpup??? Check out the link picture! Really makes you think... HUMMM.

http://onpointsupply.com/cart.php?page=microtech_small_arms_research_msar_stg_556

 

[Girodin]

the stock actually keeps the end of the weapon closer to the shooter than holding a pistol at arms length. Plus you can't put a red dot on a glock. Reddot/reflex optics increase manuverability considerably.

Who walks around with the gun at arms length all the time, a compressed ready is shorter than an MP5. That said I don't find a proper long gun to be a huge burden in terms of maneuverability.

One certainly can put a RDS on a glock

or an M&P

or a FN

etc etc.

As to the practicality of given items, what practical or desirable depends largely on the intended purpose. .

FWIW, 7.62x39 loses very little velocity with shorter barrel. It is a couple hundred FPS difference between a 16" barrel and an 11" barrel. Putting a suppressor on there makes it longer again but it is shorter than 16" would be with a suppressor.

For an AR, why not get a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash hider/adapter and then put a surefire micro on there? You add very little weight or length and gain the many advantages of a suppressor.

I always wonder what a glock SBR will do that a sub 2K wont? For serious tasks I'd rather have a proper long gun.

 

[Taurus44]

I think you need one of each... An 11.5" 5.56 AND a 7.5" 9mm!



That pic shows my 9mm in pistol configuration, but I have since SBR'd it as well.

And, by the way, an SBR just isn't right until it's got a can on it!

 

[zignal_zero]

I'm filling out my form 1 to SBR a firearm of mine. I was really really thinking about a 9mm Shorty upper for my M4 but then decided to go off in a "trailer park gangsta" direction LOL I got a MPA 9mm sidecocker. After my form 1 comes back, I'm putting an Ace stock and a very grip on it. Compact, shoulder fired, high cap, pistols caliber. Seems practical to me

 

[boricua9mm]

The 9mm blowback AR feels like it has more recoil than a DI 5.56 carbine. A lot of people don't realize this until they shoot one. This makes the roller-locked MP5 feel like a pussycat.

As for the "it's still just a pistol round" argument, one needs to realize that something like a shoulder-fired MP5 SBR is easier to shoot under stress, is much faster to shoot under stress, and will therefore result in a higher hit % for most shooters. With an MP5, show me a silhouette at 25 yards and I can triple tap it in ~ 1 second. With a pistol, slim chance matching the speed and accuracy. That's a measurable and significant advantage to me.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Taurus44, what are the specs on that 9mm AR of your's? Who makes your 9mm AR? It looks like an awesome setup and something I'd like to mimick. Also, how well does the YHM suppressor work? How quiet is it compared to a MP5SD? Thanks.

 

[Taurus44]

Taurus44, what are the specs on that 9mm AR of your's? Who makes your 9mm AR? It looks like an awesome setup and something I'd like to mimick. Also, how well does the YHM suppressor work? How quiet is it compared to a MP5SD? Thanks.

I built it myself. The dedicated 9mm lower is made by DDLES, the upper is RRA, the barrel came from Spike's and it's a Troy rail.

Here's a link to my build thread @ AR15.com: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_15/4...ress_Report___DONE___Pg_4_Update_051410_.html

The can is an older YHM Wraith QD that I already had. It's not the quietest 9mm can in the world (the newer YHM 9mm cans are quieter), but with 147gr subsonics, it's pretty good.

I've never seen an MP5SD in real life (fired or otherwise) so I couldn't tell you how it compares.

 

[regal]

As for the "it's still just a pistol round" argument, one needs to realize that something like a shoulder-fired MP5 SBR is easier to shoot under stress, is much faster to shoot under stress, and will therefore result in a higher hit % for most shooters. With an MP5, show me a silhouette at 25 yards and I can triple tap it in ~ 1 second. With a pistol, slim chance matching the speed and accuracy. That's a measurable and significant advantage to me.

This is exactly why I started the thread , the issue is compounded 10 fold as one gets older with arthritis. I am no longer "comfortable" with my ability with a pistol, yet am still good with a rifle and one that is light weight and can be swung to target quickly is a huge advantage.

The issue with SBR's is noise, but what I have learned is any centerfired weapon unsurpressed is going to damage ones hearing. Something we don't think about, but a pair of muffs should be right next to a person's SD gun.

I looked hard at the new .300 blk ar. Great ballistics with a 9" barrel and the supersonic ammo, however the smallest can adds over a pound and at least 7"s, all the cans are designed for 7.62x51 NATO, so you really gain little as far as CQB. Now the ~220g subsonic ammo could probably be used with a smaller 9mm can, but the bullet doesn't expand, how the hell is this better for SD than a 9MM HP ? It isn't, its for "discrete hunting"?.

So that leaves me looking at an 10.5" AR with one of those M4-S reflex cans which give a 13" length. But this can is possibly not available, Ops-inc is replacing it with another huge can that kills the SBR advatage. There is a real shortage of reflex cans on the market.

How about a 7.62x39 M92:



But with a practical can (unobtanium in the USA):



Now we have great SBR ballistics (7.62x39) with a barrel + can around 14".

But there are no USA small reflex cans for the AK, or the Blackout, and only one soon to be obsolete for the 5.56.

So in summary, practical SBR = MP5 clone, mk18 clone (without all the heavy rails/assosories.), or a ~10" AK. But all with a pair of ear pro muffs and NO suppressor. Now looking around it seems the Draco Ak conversion is probably the most practical as they are sold out across the country!

We can wait and maybe one day the USA will see practical reflex suppressors for 5.56,7.62x39/.300 blackout. Until then have the ear-pro racked and ready:banghead:

 

[JustinJ]

Just get a USC/UMP conversion and SBR it.

 

[scramasax]

I went old school. No SBR tax stamp needed and versatility. C&R Inglis with shoulderstock. Shorter than converted carbine with some history. 20 round mags.
Note: When you shoot with the stock afixed it will impact lower than without. If I decide to pay for a SBR it will have a perminatly affixed suppressor. yes I also have aritis problems, shoulder,back and TRIGGER FINGER.

Good luck, cheers,

ts

 

[Girodin]

So that leaves me looking at an 10.5" AR with one of those M4-S reflex cans which give a 13" length. But this can is possibly not available, Ops-inc is replacing it with another huge can that kills the SBR advatage. There is a real shortage of reflex cans on the market.

Aside from the fact they cost more, is there a reason you can't use the Surefire micro or the ACC mini 4?