Printophobia ... the unnecessary fear of those who CCW

[Zundfolge]

m39fan posted this thread: How (what) do you carry when it CAN'T show? and instead of hijacking it I figured I'd start my own thread and post an observation I've had after carrying concealed for about the last 4 years (and the fear of printing in particular).



I started carrying a concealed handgun about 4 years ago. I started out carrying a Steyr M40 (not exactly a "mouse gun") and I learned something interesting about carrying a gun over the years;

People do not see guns!

We live in the greatest age for concealed carry ... with cell phones, pagers, PDAs, Leathermen and other sundry crap people strap onto their belts it is significantly easier for someone with a gun in their pants to blend in to the populace then it would have been in the '60s (or even worse in the "skin tight designer jeans" days of the '70s).

I've read several stories in this and other forums about people who where carrying openly who where talking to some other person about guns and carry etc and the other person didn't notice the gun until it was pointed out to them.

In addition, there have been several times I've had "close calls" and I'm amazed by the fact that people will not recognize a gun when they see one (maybe its because they don't expect to see one). I've had people bump into my CCW piece and think they hit my cell phone, I've had my shirt come up and expose my piece in front of people and nobody noticed (or at least nobody said anything) I've hit door jams with my piece and it makes a distinct *thud* that nobody notices.

In short, its much easier to "get away" with carrying a firearm then most of us realize.

The first few weeks I carried a concealed handgun, I was a nervous wreck ... I assumed that every time I moved I was "printing" and everyone and their dog would recognize my gun. But its just not true.

Most people walk around in condition white ... so for those of you who are worried about being "made" or "printing"; don't. There is no need to downgrade your protection to a mouse gun or bury it so deep that you can't get it out when you need it.

Relax, the sheep are blind.

 

[Treylis]

I've read several stories in this and other forums about people who where carrying openly who where talking to some other person about guns and carry etc and the other person didn't notice the gun until it was pointed out to them.

As someone who's often told these stories, this is totally true. Worried about printing? Carry open for a while. People are utterly clueless.

 

[444]

Around here at least, people are concerned with one thing: talking on the phone.
I really don't think they do much else and certainly are not aware of anything else. This could be called condition white, but I think it actually goes beyond condtion white. Mentally, they arn't even in the present time and place. They are in the phone zone. Someimes I drive down the street and pay attention to how many cars pass me where the driver is on the phone. It isn't unusal for me to go on a streak where at least every other car has the driver on the phone. Same thing with people on the street walking. Doesn't even matter what time it is. I see people by the hundreds walking down the street at 0300 on the phone.
As a paramedic, I often find myself responding on a call and end up standing there at this "emergency" with no one to talk to because all the parties involved are on the phone. It isn't unusual at all to run a call where the party who is supposed to be injured makes a half dozen different calls one after the other.

I hardly think they would be aware if a train was bearing down on them, let alone what you have under your shirt.

 

[BeLikeTrey]

Not to hijack..

I was at work yesterday (my second job I am an Optician). I heard the darndest thing come out of someone's mouth... "Mom! Did you see that guy with the gun sticking out of his pants?"
Answer: "Yes I did, I sure hope he was a cop!"
I couldn't take it, so I had to chime in that "the general public can get a permit as long as an extensive background check is passed. Not to mention training"

They didn't take too well to it and so I left it alone not being able to push an opinion in a business I don't own.

I just don't understand... If these people trust their government so much to protect their lives why dont they trust the Govt decision to issue good citizens, permits? Isn't that a double standard? Isn't a police officer/LEO basically a permit holder as well with a few more powers? I really (when you dig really deep) see no difference in skill with said firearm. If anything I should be trusted more than some of my LEO friends. I have had to teach them skills that weren't taught in CJA. rifle skills and how to improve marksmanship. Sigh, oh well, I guess I can never understand lack of thought into why one feels the way they do. Or the false sense of security that someone gets because of a title... (LEO -POLICE -ETC)

 

[JNewell]

Worried about printing? Carry open for a while. People are utterly clueless.

I have seen this happen, literally. I am convinced that you are right, even in the paranoid northeast.

phone zone

I was thinking of it as the 'null zone' (beyond white) but too often, you are right on.

 

[hillbilly]

I teach CCW and do CCW renewals in the state of Arkansas.

I teach on my own property, with a range in my own backyard.

Not always, but often I carry a Russian Makarov in my jeans pocket when I'm on the range with armed students.

I follow NRA guidelines and don't have any ammo in the classroom, but when students get their own ammo, I usually pocket the Makarov.

I don't put the Mak in a holster, either.

No, I don't think I carry on my own range because of paranoia. It's because the Mak is cheap and makes for a great class example piece to demonstrate concepts with....like how easy it is to conceal a gun.

Students are invariably surprised when I pull the piece out of my pocket, always on cue when they ask me what I like to carry.

The Mak prints like crazy in my pocket...remember, no holster at all....just loose in my pants pocket.

But when a student asks me what I carry, I smile, and reach into my pocket and say "One of these." And they never see it coming until I've got it in my hand.

Of course, I maintain muzzle control and my finger is never on the trigger.

Folks don't notice guns loose in pockets.

Only trained people who are actively looking for signs that you are carrying a piece will "make" you.

That means about 99.9% of the population will never have a clue.

To be completley honest, even if I were actively looking for signs that folks were packing, if anyone really tried at all to conceal it from me, I'd probably never know either.

hillbilly

 

[Zundfolge]

To be completley honest, even if I were actively looking for signs that folks were packing, if anyone really tried at all to conceal it from me, I'd probably never know either.

Good point.

For fun I've sat on a park bench downtown or someplace where there are a bunch of people and start looking for people packing ... I almost NEVER see anything that I think might be a gun ... and have only been more then 80% sure someone was packing a couple of times (and one of them was a plainclothes police officer at a grocery store who reached up to a top shelf and I didn't really see his gun, just the clip of his holster and his badge ... and it was the badge that attracted my attention).

 

[magsnubby]

Zundfolge,
I've noticed the same thing myself. If anyone even happens to notice a slight bulge they most likely think it's a pager or cell phone.

I work in the down town area where there is several different law enforcement agencys. Some open carry and some don't. It's just amazing how many people don't realize they're standing in line next to an LEO who's carrying open.

One of my favorite pass times is wondering around on my lunch break and trying to spot some one carrying. It's not as easy to spot a person carrying as you would think.

 

[Ex-MA Hole]

This summer I attended the Boston Pops for there Ex-CIA and FBI night (no, I am not one of either group). My wife and I got there early and sat on the steps. She looked at the evening gowns, I looked at the people trying to make them. I'm going to assume that a large part of them were carrying. Out of the 200 or so people, I made 1. He reached into his pocket to get something, and he was carrying OWB a large silver 1911 type. Past that, I made no one. These people were 2 feet away, and I was sitting at waist level. Nothing past that one. And I was looking. Most people don't look, and will never see.

M

 

[Warren]

I'm not going to worry about it.

If it is concealed I am within the law and someone somehow makes me and has a problem in their cowardly little head about it I'm not going to give a ?????.


As Bender would say "They can kiss my shiny metal as$"


If I'm still in the area if and when the cops show, they will see my permit and that will be that.

Hoplophobes make me ill.

If someone sees the bulge and asks what it is I'll just say it is something I wear because of my recent traffic accident.

 

[m39fan]

You are correct on the sheep usually being blind. As a perfect example, I once had someone come up to me trying to sell me some weed. As he spoke he kept looking around. When I asked him what he was looking for, he replied he was keeping an eye open for the cops. The funny thing? I had this HUGE bulge on my side from my Beretta 96FS in a pancake. How big was the bulge? Big enough to make the t-shirt ride up showing the badge on my belt! It took two other officers to convince the guy that I really was a cop.

However, DO remember that there ARE times you can't afford to take the chance i.e places that guns are VERBOTEN (banks, post offices, churches in some states, job site...) and that was the case with my post Z mentioned. I volunteer somewhere that ministers to "down and outers". In spite of several close calls, they're as scared to allow their people to carry as they are of someone coming in and shooting up the place. Discovery would likely mean my family and I would be told to take a hike and not come back. Not what I think God wants for us right now. I occasionally find leadership checking out my clothing to see (I think) if I have one of those NASTY things on me. Since everyone knows me as the resident gun nut, I get examined a little more.

Out in public is a different story. As a final point, and to get this thread back on track so I don't hijack Z's thread, I once stopped in at a Stop & Rob in a neighboring town with my Blackhawk on my belt for all to see (I'd been deer hunting). Although I was in there for 10min wandering around looking for food, the clerk never saw it. My friend was two people behind me in line and she saw his and freaked. The difference? She picked up his nervousness and then, looking for what was wrong, found the gun. Moral of the story? Conceal as you are able and act as if everything's normal. Most won't be the wiser!

HTH,
Mike

 

[Standing Wolf]

Nobody's ever noticed any of my concealed guns, the most frequently carried of which is a pre-agreement Smith & Wesson model 60. Nobody's ever noticed any of my openly carried guns, the most frequently carried of which is a Colt Python with a four-inch barrel.

 

[Old Dog]

Zundfolge, no argument from me ...

About ten years ago, I pretty much came to the same conclusion you did ... to test it, I carried a Beretta 92 in an old Galco pancake strongside -- this was in the summer -- for a whole weekend under untucked lightweight shirts, everywhere I went in public, downtown ... Didn't get a hint anyone even looked twice, although to me, it felt like I had an bowling ball strapped to my side. Now, when I carry a "little" gun like a Commander-size 1911 in an IWB, I sometimes panic and check to see if I've still got it on ...

 

[Bulldozer]

Carry-age in Upstate NY

I carry a 3" M-66 daily in Central and Western NY. Usually IWB or OWB, sometimes in a Thunderwear setup. Nobody much notices or cares. I used to be a bit paranoid, given that this is one of the most anti-gun states, but as long as it is concealed, we are fine. Open carry is not allowed in NY, even if you have a pistol permit.

I think it's only a bit natural for newly minted CCW permit holders to be a bit nervous about that new part of them. The truth is that the public at large is oblivious and has zero situational awareness beyond the conversation blaring through their cell phone pasted to their ear.

On a funny aside, one of my police officer buddies was recently married and the entire gang (12 - 15 guys) got together for the event. During the cermony, one of them arrived late and sat down quickly, "THUNK". I was up at the front of the church. I saw about half a dozen guys smirk a bit but that was the only response. Later during the photos, all of us had a group shot done of "the boys". As we scooched together for the shot, everyone was trying to find out where the other was carrying. I shudder to imagine what people thought if they were behind us for the shot.

 

[Mixlesplick]

I try to spot people carrying but only did once. A guy was at the counter at a gas station and pulled a bunch of change out of his very large front pocket. He was trying to hide it but I saw about an inch of a black single stack magazine in one hand. I never made the gun though. I figured if he wasn't waving the gun around I didn't give a bleep . I would expect the same courtesy if the roles were reversed.

 

[BHPshooter]

As we scooched together for the shot, everyone was trying to find out where the other was carrying. I shudder to imagine what people thought if they were behind us for the shot.

THAT is classic!!!

I'll probably be really self-concious for a while after I get my permit, so this is good stuff to hear.

Wes

 

[P95Carry]

My lightweight ''Smith & Alexander'' vest is my norm for summer ... on the bike or not .. and it does a fine job of covering ''Mr SP'' .. however I am aware that when I bend forward ... like picking something up ....... the vest gapes (always unbuttoned) - and all that is there, sitting at 3.30 is shown ... well, seems that way.

Yet however to find any ''funny looks'' so yeah .. I think the vast majority are oblivious to any ''belt paraphenalia'' ... and so I just keep on as normal and act normal .... seems to work!

Just remembered .... last hunting season ... had my ''mega rig'' on with Raging Lunatic (.454) in place and showing .. open for hunting is the deal .... almost no reaction from anyone ..... no different probably from having a rifle slung over shoulder. Mind you - this is a good area for gun awareness and relative low paranoia quotient!

 

[crucible]

P95-how do you like that vest? The pic they have on their site is small and I cannot seem to find any others or find folks who have them.

How does it fit, color, concealability, can it be worn and not suick out like it's a CCW vest ala 5.11, etc. Any comment appreciated-thanks.

Cruc

 

[P95Carry]

P95-how do you like that vest?

Cruc .. well, I have a pic somewhere of vest when new bit not sure where it is right now. If you want I will find it - or take a fresh pic. (Note - I am outa town Weds pm thru midday Fri)

I do find it excellent - I gotta say. My first one I got a bit too large and got another 2" smaller. That is just right.

I am not concerned whether it gets seen as CCW gear ... to heck with that! It does tho do everything I want and .. even in hot weather does not add much to over heating. Actually - it looks more ''biker gear'' than CCW - well, IMO!

Mine is blue denhim .. ideal for me. When undone (usual unless actually riding) ..... it hangs well and even if windy, an elbow strong side keeps it from flapping open. I keep cell phone right pocket and speedloader left - the weight of these keeps it hanging nice.

 

[TonyB]

I wear the smith and alexander every day...I like them because they don't look like the "johnny tactical" vests....mine is black and size 3x.....I like the fact that they make them big(being fat)...I have 2 actually..an everyday one,that's getting pretty beat,and a good one......I plan on getting a few more in different colors....I too carry the SP and no on ehas made me yet(to my knowledge)
If anyone ever did,I'd say..oh it's my insulin pump.....or even better colostamy bag...should shut them up pretty quick..
BTW,if you're an IDPA member there is a discount at S+A...

 

[Rugertommy]

same here

I just gotta say that I have been carrying concealed for a year now and haven't been "made" yet (that I know of). Which kinda suprises me as I only carry (and own) full sized handguns. I usually switch back and forth between a Glock 21 in a IWB and a Ruger GP100 4" in a OWB. When I first got me carry permit here in VA I thought about getting a compact just becouse of the whole printing issue but never found one that I really liked. So I ended up just toting around one that's full sized. I 've stood between LEOs in lines and had my shirt ride up exposing my piece when I got out of cars and all of that and not once has anyone seemed to notice. I don't wear any special garments to help conceal or anything like that. Just untucked shirts. Usually a tee shirt or a polo. There are a number of people that know now due to the girlfriend telling friends we would go out with " Did you know Tom has a gun?" But that ended after we had a talk about how some things are best left unsaid.

Sometimes I wonder if the whole printing issue is a part of the "guns are evil" mentality. It seems to me that society in general thinks that if you have a gun on you (even legally) that you are up to no good. Many people like myself went a number of years not armed in public and even with the understanding that it's usually the person that creates the problem and not the gun we are still kinda thinking that we are somehow pushing some boundry or blurring some line between what's right and wrong when we act within society. I dunno. Just a simple observation from a simple person.

I do recall that when I went to the courthouse to pay for my right to bear arms that the clerk that helped me was rather "pro carry" and even made the comment that she wished more people would apply for concealed carry permits. I asked her if she had many people applying and she said " a few, but not many" kinda sad considering how many people I see at pistol ranges or at the counter at gun shops. I imagine that if all those people went and got a permit to carry and did that it would become more the norm and more acceptable by the general public.

 

[armoredman]

Only time I was ever "made" was by a clerk at a gunshop, who asked if I had a permit. I showed my badge and ID. Now that was an IWB rig, so I get a little nervous about my new paddle rig, but I don't have an IWB for the CZ PO1 yet. I carry under loose t-shirts all the time - vests and open flannel shirts over t-shirts don't work well in AZ during the summer. Everyone knows you're hiding something!

 

[jason10mm]

Most of the people I work with know that I carry and they still don't notice anything. I routinely carry a 642 in a pocket holster. It prints badly, but just doesn't look like a gun. Hell, I've had women sit next to me, RUBBING THE HOLSTER IN MY POCKET (through the shorts, of course and still not realize what that hard thing in my pocket is. Naturally I try to keep dates on my weak side to prevent this. I've even taken the damn thing out to store it and they don't realize what it is. Something about an exposed weapon inspires fear, but one in a holster is totally overlooked.

 

[Island Beretta]

In my neck of the woods, folks tend to assume your packing once they seen any bulge until you prove otherwise. Even LEOs will stop you to enquire as to the printing at your side..

Me: Oh, mr. officer it is my cellphone..

LEO: Okay then slowly and gently remove it so I can see it, I am warning you, any sudden movement and you may be shot..

 

[TonyB]

OTOH..when I see a guy with a fanny pack...I assume he's carrying......especially if he's got short cop like hair..I know I'm profiling