Private Sale Missing?

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eixid

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A few years ago I privately sold a gun to a friend of mine. After catching up with him the other week, I asked him if he still had it and he responded that he thought so, but hadn't seen it in a while and figured one of his friends borrowed it. He runs a hunting camp in Georgia and often loans guns to members and friends there.

It bothers me that a gun with my name on it cannot be accounted for. Especially since the gun has a negative stigma associted with it (it's a semi-auto AK-47).

I purchased the gun from a dealer and sold it to him without paperwork. What legal or documentative steps should I have taken? What can I do now?

Thanks for the advice.
 
I'm curious whether your name is still "attached" to it. Unless they can find the dealer it was sold by and link the serial number to sales records he might have on file, I don't think they can call up your name from any sort of database.

The NCIS check supposedly is not recorded permanently or linked to a serial number I don't believe...

That said, you should check a legal expert. I'm not necessarily sure anything illegal was done though; nor could you be tracked to the gun.
 
alexd-the manufacturer has records- they start there and trace it to the distributor then the dealer... the dealer is rquired to keep the 4473 federal form if he goes out of business they get sent to the batf. It is not "registered" to an owner but it definately makes a trail to the first buyer. While it is not illegal to sell or not have a reciept for the sale or purchase of a second hand or private sale the trail will lead to you at least if you were on a 4473...

and while there are laws against the gov makin a list- I would not bet that there is not one- or three :( I mean after all SS #'s are illegal to use for ID too huh...
 
If you'd spent the $20 to transfer it thru an FFL at the time of sale, you sure wouldn't be having this stress right now, would you? Although private sales are perfectly legal, the last thing I want is my name connected to a gun that I no longer own. Think how many times a gun could be transferred over it's life time. What if no one in the line ever went thru an FFL? That gun will always come back to you, if you are the original owner.

Do the right thing for your own peace of mind, and spend $20 and transfer all guns thru an FFL.
 
If you'd spent the $20 to transfer it thru an FFL at the time of sale, you sure wouldn't be having this stress right now, would you?
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That's a little dramatic ... write up a bill of sale, have both parties sign it and photocopy the CCW, drivers' licenses, FOIDs, whatever the state in question uses as ID.
/Bryan
 
Posted by Linda:
Do the right thing for your own peace of mind, and spend $20 and transfer all guns thru an FFL.
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Voluntary gun control for your own piece of mind...
usa00000.gif



It reminds me of the LEOs that tell of the calls from residents wanting to register their firearms (for their own piece of mind)... They are baffled when they are told that there isn't a registry and that they are perfectly legal having these "un-registered" firearms...

My advice is; don't sweat it... You followed the letter of the law. Your friend is the one that lost a firearm. He should be the concerned one.
 
A private seller can require the buyer to complete a Form 4473 just like an FFL can.

That's what you should have done IMHO.

What Canuck said is good also IMHO.

You can have your friend sign a statement now also.
 
It reminds me of the LEOs that tell of the calls from residents wanting to register their firearms (for their own piece of mind)... They are baffled when they are told that there isn't a registry and that they are perfectly legal having these "un-registered" firearms...
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New York City based cop television programs will do that to the unwashed masses.

Pilgrim
 
I'm pretty sure the record keeping requirement for FFL holders is to retain the Form 4473's for five years, after which the older ones may be destroyed. If it's been more then 5 years, and your dealer is like mine, it's not around anymore - don't sweat it.
 
Happened to a friend of mine - where a gun used in a crime was traced back to him. He had sold the gun at a gun show. I forget who called him (police, FBI?), he answered a few questions and that was the end of the matter. He's the kind of guy who will go through more than a dozen guns to find one he likes. He buys, goes to the range, and if he really likes something it goes into the keeper category, otherwise it's for sale and he's out looking for something else.
 
It bothers me that a gun with my name on it cannot be accounted for. Especially since the gun has a negative stigma associted with it (it's a semi-auto AK-47).

I purchased the gun from a dealer and sold it to him without paperwork. What legal or documentative steps should I have taken? What can I do now?
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Forget about it.
You are no more responsible if that gun is used illegally than if a car you sold is used in a crime.

I've been selling and buying guns since the late 1950's. Of all those sales I only know about five of the people I sold the guns to, or bought guns from. I will not give out any information when I buy or sell a gun and I want no information. If I don't like the guy's looks I don't deal with him.

Some years back a Detective traced me 1,500 miles and called me asking about a gun I had bought from a dealer. The gun had been used in a killing.

The conversation was simple.
I said I sold the gun and had no idea where it went.
The Detective said, OK.
The end.
 
I think the "Bound Book" lasts forever, and has to be sent to the ATF if a dealer closes.
All I've ever done for a FTF sale was copy the FOID card. Haven't done one since I moved to Indiana, but I would prolly just scan or photocopy his Carry Permit or D/L and call it a day.
 
I'm pretty sure the record keeping requirement for FFL holders is to retain the Form 4473's for five years, after which the older ones may be destroyed. If it's been more then 5 years, and your dealer is like mine, it's not around anymore - don't sweat it.
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Uhhhh, there's more to it than a 4473. Dealers, and collectors for that matter, keep a bound book. That's where the acquistion/disposition info goes. The 4473 doesn't matter. If he doesn't have it in his bound book, your dealer is doing business on borrowed time.

eixid, why you worried about it? What you did was legit...
 
I am not filling out the Micky 4473 if I am doing a FTF purchase of a privately owned firearm. There is no law that says I have to and there is no law that you have to do any more than what you did to sell the firearm.
If someone insists I fill out some piece of paper they can keep their gun.

I will follow all laws on gun sales to the letter but I ain't doing anything over that. You shouldn't either.
 
"If someone insists I fill out some piece of paper they can keep their gun"

Then I'd be keeping mine because I have a self devised form that we complete that documents the transfer of ownership and how I determined that you were qualified to posses said firearm..... I've been down this road before when the cops call me and ask about a gun that they have recovered that comes back to me. I have a folder full of information that I can provide on the purchaser..... Maybe it's just me....... I don't like feeling strong breezes on my behind.....
 
What you should have done was to get a written bill of sale when you sold the gun. Nothing fancy, just a piece of paper saying "I, Joe Smith, sold to John Doe one <make, model> handgun with serial # xxxxxxxx" and signed by both people.

What can you do now? Not much. You might ask the guy to sign a bill of sale now after the fact, but he'd be an idiot to do it. I wouldn't accept responsibility for a firearm I can't locate.
 
Bailey Boat reflects one of my concerns:

Then I'd be keeping mine because I have a self devised form that we complete that documents the transfer of ownership and how I determined that you were qualified to posses said firearm..... I've been down this road before when the cops call me and ask about a gun that they have recovered that comes back to me. I have a folder full of information that I can provide on the purchaser.....
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I bought and sold many guns FTF (Face To Face) sans documentation before the dot-gov in its various manifestations got all paranoid about it, and I wonder how that would be handled nowadays, since I can't prove I disposed of them. (Yeah, yeah, "innocent until proven guilty"... sure.... yeah, yeah.)

And I can't cop the "tragic boating accident" plea, since I never owned a boat. :)

So now what?

I bet on the New England Patriots yesterday?

Cleaned me out?

------------------

Edited to Add:

Lest any anti-gun legislators leap upon the above statements to "prove" that improvements are necessary and require that forms be filled out for FTFs, I point out that the best "improvement" would be to have firearms owners fill out the same kind of forms that people do in buying a set of dishes.
 
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Ill second the notion atleast for myself with the crazy MA gun laws that it is just easier to use an FFL for any transfer.
 
You sold a gun without going through the unnecessary governmental quasi-registration of decentralized 4473s. Good for you! Please pay no attention to those who say you should have done it anyway.

The fact that we (in free states) may and do sell firearms without the government knowing effectively cripples any future confiscation. . Government registration records are used to round up citizen owned firearms. It happened in the UK and Australia. They are also used by foreign invaders for the same reason.
 
I'm pretty sure the record keeping requirement for FFL holders is to retain the Form 4473's for five years, after which the older ones may be destroyed. If it's been more then 5 years, and your dealer is like mine, it's not around anymore - don't sweat it.
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Actually, I believe this is 20 years. And if the dealer goes out of business, or the name on the license changes, or in other cases, then the records go to the ATF. This virtually guarantees that the 4473 will never be destroyed, and is why I call it quasi-registration.
 
Anyone foolish enough to do the "documentation" on a personal sale that doesn't cross state lines is contributing to the ultimate confiscation of all our firearms. As long as you "voluntarily" do this the law makers will soon say "they are doing it anyway so lets make it universal" and bam no more private sales. If you don't think the firearms dealers would support this, think again. The big houses like Gander mtn, Cabellas and so on would support this in a heartbeat as it would contribute to their bottom line. Sell to private parties whenever you can as the more of us who do it the more muddled the records become and it becomes increasingly difficult to track down privately held weapons. That is a good thing.:D
 
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