1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pro/Anti gun arguement with a person I know

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by another person, Oct 12, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. another person

    another person member

    Oct 6, 2006
    I just want to post this arguement and see what people have to say. I dont think this is inappropriate to post, so hopefully it wont get locked. I ended up getting blocked.

    Pro: do you still think guns should be banned
    Anti: yes
    Anti: most of them
    Pro: why
    Anti: there is not purpose for them
    Pro: self defense?
    Pro: to protect your family
    Pro: yourself?
    Anti: from what
    Pro: other people
    Pro: rapists
    Anti: that won't have guns
    Pro: criminals wouldnt have guns?
    Pro: they and the law enforcement would be the onyl ones who had them
    Anti: we create criminals by making gun access so easy
    Pro: but rapists could easily overpwoer a women without a gun
    Pro: and criminals are made because of they way they are raised
    Anti: hey i am just saying
    Anti: japan
    Anti: no guns
    Anti: violence little
    Anti: canada more gun control
    Anti: violence
    Anti: little
    Anti: us
    Pro: what about switzerland and finland
    Pro: barely any gun control
    Pro: very very little crime
    Pro: and what about the UK
    Anti: hold up
    Pro: guns banned
    Pro: higher crime
    Pro wants to directly connect.
    Anti is now directly connected.
    Pro: i have graphs
    Pro: switzerland at the bottom
    Anti: dude
    Anti: let me talk for a second
    Pro: if people are raised around guns, and taught the right way, then people will be responsable with them
    Pro: ok
    Anti: i partially agree to that but
    Anti: both finland and swizterland have some of the highest GDP per capita
    Anti: as well as A large middle class
    Anti: and a very small middle class
    Anti: the lack of crime is not due to gun control
    Anti: it is due to their economic status
    Anti: people in finland switzerland have no need for crime
    Pro: why is that
    Anti: because
    Anti: they have a sick economy
    Pro: so its a coincidence?
    Anti: most people can make all the money they need legally
    Pro: what about the UK?
    Pro: crime has spiked
    Anti: yea
    Pro: after the banning of guns
    Anti: no
    Pro: yes
    Anti: no
    Anti: crime spiked
    Anti: because their economy was going down the tubes
    Anti: totally unrelated
    Pro: no way
    Anti: yes
    Anti: your taking apples and trying to make them look like oranges
    Pro: so thats a coincidence too?
    Pro: the same year they were banned, crime rate went up
    Anti: no
    Anti: the same year crime went up
    Anti: UK backed the US up on the war in iraq
    Anti: which pretty much pissed off everyone in the UK
    Anti: not to mention
    Anti: they had a huge stock market crash
    Anti: joined the EU
    Anti: as in the money system
    Anti: they were part of the commonwealth and EU long before
    Anti: but not the money system
    Pro: so things like the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust were a coincidence too
    Pro: they happened for strange reasons
    Pro: if any of those citizens had guns, they would most likely be living
    Anti: no
    Pro: look at this
    Pro: http://www.mouseguns.com/whyown/whyown.htm
    Anti: dude
    Anti: if those people had guns
    Anti: it would have not been genocide
    Anti: it would have been a mass civil war
    Anti: guns don't stop violence
    Anti: they just perpetuate it
    Anti: maybe change who gets killed and who does the killing
    Anti: guns just make it easier to kill
    Pro: and with only criminals having guns, killing civilians would be easier
    Anti: ok
    Anti: criminals
    Anti: the criminals you are talking about
    Anti: are gonna kill
    Anti: no matter what
    Anti: whether other people have guns or not
    Anti: most criminals in the United states
    Anti: are like gangsters
    Anti: and ****
    Pro: and if civilians have guns, they can protect themselves legally
    Anti: they are people that tweaked out grabbed a gun and didn't think about what they were doing
    Anti: NOOOO
    Pro: why no
    Anti: because
    Pro: theres no such thing as self defense?
    Anti: there is
    Pro: criminals will have guns no matter what, and civilians can either have guns or not
    Pro: depending on laws
    Pro: if civilians dont have guns, then criminals will be very happy
    Pro: it wopuld be easier to attack people, rob them
    Pro: loot houses
    Pro: rape women
    Anti: dude
    Pro: if you were a rapist
    Pro: woudnt you rather have your target be unarmed
    Pro: there would be so many more rapists
    Anti: no
    Anti: your thinking about it the wrong way
    Anti: your thinking about it backwards
    Pro: how so
    Anti: most rapists and criminals like that
    Anti: make bad choices
    Anti: let me ask u a question
    Pro: yep
    Anti: is it easier to A rob a covenient store or rape a woman with or without a gun
    Pro: rob a store
    Anti: no
    Anti: thats not what i am asking
    Anti: would it be easier to do both with or without a gun
    Pro: with
    Anti: ok
    Anti: now wait
    Anti: most people that rob convenient stores are below the poverty line
    Pro: and cannot afford guns
    Anti: its not like are hardcore gangsters
    Anti: part of some organized gun smuggling agency
    Anti: they may need some money
    Anti: and have a gun lieing around
    Anti: and say lets go shoot up a convenient store
    Anti: and most rape for your information
    Anti: occurs between people that know one another
    Anti: and is more of a white collar crime
    Anti: and usually is done without a gun
    Pro: but there is still times when it happens between complete strangers
    Anti: your right
    Anti: u know what
    Pro: and in either situation, a gun can easily stop the crim e from happening
    Anti: i will drop u off in northwest philly
    Anti: see how u like it there
    Anti: see if u can last a couple days
    Anti: u tell me what u think of guns then
    Pro: you wouldnt be able to do that, because i own guns
    Pro: and i could easily get by without pissing people off
    Anti: o so you might kill some one right
    Anti: if they came out
    Pro: no
    Anti: came at you
    Pro: with a weapon yes
    Pro: but i wouldnt let myself get in a situation like that
    Anti: no i am saying i would put u in a situation like that
    Pro: you cant go wandering the ghetto at night
    Pro: ok if you did
    Pro: i would use lethal force to protect my life
    Anti: and thats exactly why we don't need weapons, because they are too easy to obtain
    Anti: you don't want a bunch of people in the ghetto to have guns
    Pro: you understand
    Anti: you don't want a bunch of white kids in colorado to have guns
    Pro: that people convicted of a felony
    Pro: cant get guns legally
    Anti: your right
    Pro: and those who have been
    Pro: will get them illegally
    Pro: banning guns wont stop that
    Anti: dude
    Anti: there are soooooooooooooo many ****in guns in the us
    Pro: right
    Anti: its not hard to get them illegally
    Pro: how would you get rid of them all?
    Pro: impossbile
    Anti: if we totally ban them
    Anti: your right
    Anti: i agree
    Anti: but getting rid of most of them is best for society
    Pro: and you know that how
    Pro: japan already had almost a gun free society
    Anti: because having a gun allows people to take the horrible brutality of killing out of killing
    Pro: banning guns wont stop that
    Pro: and it also allows people to defend themselves
    Anti: to kill more people
    Pro: right, to kill the criminal scum
    Anti: u live in a video game bro
    Anti: i am sorry
    Pro: most criminals are repeat offenders
    Anti: i can't talk with you anymore
    Pro: and will always own guns
    Pro: and will always be violent
    Pro: if he comes at you
    Pro: how would you defend yourself without a gun
    Anti: you no what ryan
    Pro: you have no answer?
    Anti: i don't think i would ever have that problem
    Pro: lets hope not
    Anti: no
    Anti: i know not
    Pro: because you would be in big trouble
    Pro: you dont know anything
    Pro: you dont know the future
    Pro: and what could happen
    Anti: your right
    Pro: if it did, you would be very hurt, or very dead
    Anti: but i do know a world with less guns means less chances to pull the trigger
    Anti: and less chances for people to make mistakes they will regret for the rest of your life
    Pro: i do do know that it is a human right to defend yourself
    Pro: and i also know that its a constitutional right
    Anti: whether banning guns is the way to go i don't know
    Pro: and training will elminate many mistakes
    Anti: o my ****in god
    Pro: in the genocide situation
    Pro: would you rather die
    Pro: or fight back
    Anti: ***
    Anti: i can't listen to this **** anymore
    Pro: i woudl rather fight back and not die a horrible death
    Anti: sorry
    Anti: ok
    Anti: and live like iraq
    Anti: complete civil war
    Anti: with gun control
    Anti: done correctly
    Anti: there wouldn't be a genocide situation
    Anti: so that doesn't even work
    Pro: maybe not in iraq
    Pro: because almost everyone is armed
    Pro: people are too scared to attack eachother
    Anti: no
    Pro: unless they are willing to die
    Anti: they ****in shoooot the **** out of each other
    Pro: most want to die as a hero
    Anti: ryan
    Pro: iraq isnt a good place and we cant focus on just that country
    Anti: i seriously can't listen to this
    Pro: its a human right to be able to defend yourself
    Anti: we can't focus on any other country
    Pro: if you want to live as a slave to the government you can
    Pro: im keeping my guns
    Anti: cause all of them are in a different situation then america
    Anti: i am saying there is no ****in reason for semi automatics and sniper rifles
    Pro: in america, the armed and ready people will survive to the end
    Anti: thats why america sucks dick
    Pro: so you would rather defend yourself on the streets with a bolt action
    Pro: what if you miss?
    Anti direct connection is closed.
    Anti signed off at 10:37:37 PM.
  2. Axman

    Axman Member

    Sep 5, 2006
    Golden Valley, AZ

    Okay, which one is it?

    Oh, rape is more of a white collar crime? So now people are embezzling sex from women?

    Now he's backstepping!

    This next line gets me! He likes the idea of the killing to be brutal. Like it's more fun or something. What a tool!

  3. another person

    another person member

    Oct 6, 2006
    I was going to tell him to **** if he doesnt believe in the Constitution but he blocked me too fast.
  4. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Portland, OR
    I think he meant small lower class.

    I see truth in both of your arguments. That is what makes it such a difficult debate. There is no clear right or wrong answer. There is strong evidence on both sides and also stuff that contradicts both sides.

    I myself think it has more to do with the culture/economy of the country than I do with the presence or lack of guns. Guns are just a tool that the desperate and the truely bad people use to obtain an objective. Take away guns and they would use knives or clubs.

    I am not a fan of just treating the symptom (taking away guns), I would rather treat the disease (address the issues of our economy and the needs of our citizens).
  5. Handgun Midas

    Handgun Midas Member

    May 21, 2006
    Northern Kentucky
    I think the anti fared pretty well. He didn't resort to calling you names or playing pro-gunners off as ignorant rednecks.

    However his perspective, and the crux of many anti's I imagine, is based the concept of a gun being removed from society. Of course this is a fantasy; guns are here to stay, it's just a matter of who has them.
  6. Axman

    Axman Member

    Sep 5, 2006
    Golden Valley, AZ
    Penguin, if they took the guns away someone would make zip-guns out of pipe and stuff, and they do. I recall a guy I went to high school with who made a shotgun out of galvanized water pipe and a few pipe fittings. All it needed was a stock to hold the thing and there you have a homemade gun. I didn't hang around much with that guy he was a little nutty. He ended up in prison for armed robbery.
  7. Handgun Midas

    Handgun Midas Member

    May 21, 2006
    Northern Kentucky
    He's talking about the difficulty of killing. Specifically the act of killing being detestable and mentally difficult to a civilized person.

    Again, it assumes humans can live in a world where everybody plays nice all the time, even though history has proven that there have always been those who have had no difficulty in killing no matter the methods.

    The gun, of course, is the most effective tool yet invented for the protection of anyone against those who have no qualms about murder.
  8. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Portland, OR
    Yup, even if someone beats you to death with a rock you are still just as dead as if he used an .44 magnum wheelgun.

    I think society would be better served if people stopped debating the inherent evil nature of inanimate objects and started address "why people commit crimes", "how best to prevent this need", and "what to do with the ones that cannot be deterred".

    When an anti makes a silly comment like "evil guns" I always make a joke about my guns being "good guns that are kind to their mothers and donate time reading to the elderly" just to illustrate how truely stupid that sounds.
  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

    Jan 1, 2003
    DFW Area
    First of all, I gotta object at being subjected to a transcript like that--there's a reason I don't spend my time wading through that stuff by choice.
    I could make a single-shot gun in an afternoon in my garage.

    With a little more time--maybe a few days--I could make a full auto if I could get my hands on a magazine. Making a semi-auto would be a good bit harder.

    With several hundred bucks, I could buy some used machining equipment and make some really nice guns.

    People who honestly think it's possible to prevent criminals from getting guns are terribly uninformed. Even without the black market, it's pretty simple to make functional guns.

    And regarding the black market--we've all seen how easy it is to prevent illegal drugs from being brought into the country. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, after shoveling through a bit more of the 'saga', I see that the anti started arguing that it was soooo easy to get guns illegally.

    It's pretty hard to win an argument with someone who'll argue both sides of a point.
  10. joab

    joab Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    Ocoee, Fla
    I usually take a different approach than the "criminals have guns so me must" argument.
    Mine is more along the lines of without guns we are at the mercy of the stronger criminal element and hold up examples such as Troy Victorino . I also will use Bernie Goetz if I feel the person can separate his personality from his actions.
  11. White Horseradish

    White Horseradish Member

    Jun 28, 2004
    You have succeeded, but not in the right thing. You have made him run from the argument.

    A better thing to go for would be to try and make him think. You do not give him a chance to do that, you just beat him over the head with you information. The trick to making someone think is to have him give you the answers, not shove them down his throat.

    Try making him answer a question posed before posing one of his own.
  12. Axman

    Axman Member

    Sep 5, 2006
    Golden Valley, AZ
    I just wanted to give a little more detail of the workings of that homemade shotgun the nut I knew in HS made. It was a length of pipe about two FEET long. It was just large enough to slip a 12 ga shell into yet the rim kept it from sliding in. A pipe cap was center drilled then screwed over the shell. The trigger mechanism was a crude combination of a finish nail and a carburetor return spring. A small wire was attached to the nail and firing was accomplished by pulling the wire and quickly releasing letting the point of the nail strike the primer. It was a bit scary knowing that it actually functioned.

    Wait, you say since guns are banned so would the ammo? I've got you covered! A small length of pipe fitted with a ball valve and a small airtank made from a disposable propane tank (the type made for torches) can be charged with air and made to launch a projectile with enough lethal force to become a gun of sorts. A cylindrical projectile with the tip machined into a point so it resemble a conical bullet, maybe? I think of those air cannons made for throwing "punkins". There are other ways, heck, a pistol crossbow would be just as deadly. Killers wouldn't need guns!

    *edit* that was to be 2 feet long not 2 inches! Sorry for any convenience this may have caused.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2006
  13. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

    Jul 28, 2005
    Lewisberry, PA
    Me, too. You only have to go to the end of a pointless conversation like that to see someone's thoughts. This one being no different:

    another person - How much time did you spend in that argument?
  14. Cromlech

    Cromlech Member

    Feb 20, 2006
    England, U.K.
    Wow, I had no idea that the economy here in the U.K is going down the pan.

    Can anyone lend me a fiver, before the great depression sets in? :(
  15. razorburn

    razorburn member

    May 16, 2006
    When he said it was because of their economic status, I would've said yes, then he also acknowledges crime has much more to do with social and economic situations than guns. And there's no reason to relinquish any freedom or create arbitrary legislation against anything without a strong reasoning against it. But that's just me. I personally believe that guns don't affect crime much one way or the other. There's places with lots of guns and very little crime, places with lots of gun control and a lot of crime, places with lots of guns and lots of crime, and places with little guns and little crime. I'd also have pointed out that Canada has nearly twice the overall violent crime as the U.S.
  16. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

    May 8, 2003
    Reno, Nevada
    I couldn't follow

    wierd argument
  17. Phil DeGraves

    Phil DeGraves Member

    Aug 24, 2006
    The way you stop crime is by eliminating the criminals. 10% of the criminals commit 90% of the crime. Eliminate the habitual offenders and we immediately reduce crime significantly.
  18. another person

    another person member

    Oct 6, 2006
    BullfrogKen: 40 minutes.

    I was getting mad that he kept saying "no" after I made a point. Kinda like lard ass Rosie O Donnell.

    Phil DeGraves: Thats what I said, but apparently "guns create criminals."
  19. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

    Jul 28, 2005
    Lewisberry, PA
    You might have had a better use for those 40 minutes than bantering with an unreasonable person.
  20. Wesker

    Wesker member

    Mar 14, 2006
    Your anti friend is an idiot. His entire argument is based on hear-say, hypothetical situation, and 'what-if' statements. No points he brought up could be defended with numerical, factual evidence.

    Yea, your friend sounds like the usual anti-dummy.
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

    Mar 30, 2006
    Rocky River, Ohio
    There is NOT a "strong argument" on the other side. There are just rationalizations, evasions, juvenile chest thumping and deceit.

    Anti-gunners almost invariably show the following, often in combination:

    Racism - They're often not afraid of guns, but of non-White people with guns. They view all non-Whites as criminals or potential criminals.

    Misogyny - They would rather see a woman beaten, raped and murdered than to see serious harm come to a rapist. Totally without supporting evidence, they assert that when faced with violence, a woman will GIVE her gun to an assailant instead of using it on him.

    Irrational Fantasy - In one breath, they hysterically proclaim that women shouldn't be allowed to have guns for self-defense because they'll just be "taken away", while in the next they claim that women don't NEED guns because they can defend themselves with the martial arts. If women enjoy this alleged physical parity with men who outweigh them by 100lb.s, HOW could someone take a gun away from one? Hint: Xena, Warrior Princess is NOT a documentary.

    Nihilism - They actually appear horrified at the idea that somebody might not just resist a violent attack, but might even prevail. They often refer to robbery as a "tax". If so, what is RAPE?

    You can argue in favor of repressive gun controls, just as you can argue in favor of slavery and deny the Holocaust... you just can't do it without lies, deception and malice. The leaders of the gun control industry are the moral equivalents of the David Dukes and David Irvings of the world, evil charlatans with a mendacious agenda of of oppression and destruction.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2006
  22. highlander 5

    highlander 5 Member

    Sep 15, 2006
    question..... if economic conditions cause crime then did crime go up in USA during the Great Depression ?:what: :what: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
  23. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Portland, OR

    Actually when you have a rational argument there are good facts on both sides. I just think that the people on the other side want to deal to much with the symptom and not the real problem.

    When you try and say their side are racist, misogynist, or just wrong you are generalizing and that is the quickest way to negate your side of a debate. Especially when alot of them are the most non-racist, free loving people you will ever meet.
  24. romma

    romma Member

    Jun 28, 2005
    No winning an argument of this type with someone that has "The Cloak Of Ignorance" wrapped tightly around them. That doesn't mean they are stupid,,, just ignorant.
  25. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Portland, OR
    I may be naive but I see these types of arguments as a good thing and not a waste of time. He may have been reluctant to yeild during the confrontation but if he is a true free thinking liberal he will continue to consider every point you made long afterwards.

    He will then be forced to find facts to counter your stance or be forced to alter his own opinions. Even if he slightly alters one opinion it is progress.
    Either way it is good because, even if he comes back with counters, that will force you to reinforce your argument and the cycle continues.

    This is how people are converted. I just have to look at how much my own personal opinions have changed in the last year for proof of that.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page