Problem with Buds Guns

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I read a post on line from an Attorney that stated a felon can buy a gun for a friend as long as they are the owner and take possession of it. There is no law according to the thread I was reading that a felon can not buy a gun for a friend as long as its not so they can get the gun for themself.
 
Maybe you missed this:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/supreme-court-tightens-definition-straw-purchase

I'm trying really hard to be civil in the face of your dogged determination to be right, but lemme say this one more time: no, you are wrong, no matter how many times you assert this.

I read a post on line from an Attorney that stated a felon can buy a gun for a friend as long as they are the owner and take possession of it. There is no law according to the thread I was reading that a felon can not buy a gun for a friend as long as its not so they can get the gun for themself
Dear lord, no!

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are...-receive-or-possess-firearms-andor-ammunition

Note the use of the word 'receive'.
 
You were right - they are wrong. Wait! On second thought I may be wrong! Gee - that's never happened before.
If you used her account, that is, purchased it by using her credit card or pay pal account, then yes it is a straw purchase. You were not the individual to whom the account, CC or PP was registered to.
But then again - I may be wrong - Gee, that's never happened before!
 
Here is where you go off the rails bad. The core issue of this case is whether Abramski or his uncle was the “actual purchaser” of the firearm at the time of the original sale. The Gun Control Act forbids sales by licensed dealers to “prohibited persons” – those with felony or domestic violence convictions, illegal drug users, illegal aliens, etc., and requires background checks on purchasers. It also requires that certain information about every sale be maintained in the dealer’s records for 20 years, restricts interstate and non-face-to-face transactions, and provides penalties for providing false information material to the acquisition of a firearm. To assist in all of this, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, or ATF, has promulgated regulations and issued forms for the collection of necessary information – particularly the Form 4473. There was no purchase of a firearm unitl the form 4477 was filled out. I filled it out and I took possession and I was the actual buyer. There ends the beg and end of the buy.
 
"I'm trying really hard to be civil in the face of your dogged determination to be right, but lemme say this one more time: no, you are wrong, no matter how many times you assert this."
I can say your wrong no matter how many times you try to assert this BS. Show me the law that says its who is on the Buds guns account or who is on the Cabelas account, not who fills out the 4477. Because you can not. Did you actually read the post you linked? It said you can buy a gun and give it to someone like a spouse or a child. The whole problem came in when someone bought a gun saying they were the actual buyer with the express intent to sell it to someone else even though they were both legal to own the gun. I was the one who paid for the gun, was going to fill out the 4477 and was gong to own the gun where is the strawman? No one would have owned the gun inbetween Buds and myself.
 
I've seen a lot of stubborn people in my life. Dude, I think you top them all. Bud's CLEARLY states you must be the purchaser. There are two boxes to check. Yes or no.

I do not agree is not an answer.

If you don't understand, go back and read rbernie's post. And read it again.

And next time, just buy it in your name from a local store.
 
Sorry redneck I just did a dry run on buds and there is no are you the actual buyer. There was is this the billing address for the credit card but not one thing are you the actual buyer. Not that it would even matter other than it may be buds personal policy but nothing to do with ATF law. More BS
 
OK, castile...

You need to understand something here. The issue with respect to whether or not this is viewed as a straw purchase is not a personal one. It's an issue of what the laws say...not what you or I WANT them to say.

We can argue that the intent of the law is to make it illegal for someone to purchase a gun for someone who is not legally allowed to buy or own one. And while this is, in fact, a true statement, it's unfortunately not the WHOLE statement.

The law with respect to straw purchases, as it is written AND enforced, does not care one wit about whether the person buying the gun and the person receiving the gun are both legal. It all revolves around who the BUYER is and who takes possession of it.

And this is where the problem lies. You did this under your wife's account. Not YOUR account. There is a big identity crisis here and this is what this all hinges on.

Picture this: You buddy wants a gun and you'd like to buy one for him. Both of you are legally able to buy/own a firearm.

Scenario 1: You and your buddy go to a gun shop. He picks out the gun he wants and pays for it with a VISA gift card you gave him. He's the purchaser, using his own money, and he's the one who fills out the 4473 and takes possession.

Done deal, right as rain, Uncle Sam doesn't care.


Scenario 2: You and your buddy go to a gun shop and you find out what it is he likes. Later, you go back and buy the gun with your money, fill out the 4473, and take possession of the gun. The gun is yours, you're the buyer and you took possession of it. You then give it to your friend as a gift.

Done deal, right as rain, Uncle Sam doesn't care.


Scenario 3: You go into a gun store with your buddy. He picks out the gun he wants and you pay for it. He fills out the 4473 and takes possession of it.

Uncle Sam steps in and arrests both of you for a straw purchase, takes you both to court and obtains a felony conviction. Now both of you can no longer own or buy firearms at all.

Why? Because YOU bought the gun, not your buddy. It was YOUR money that made the actual purchase.


The bottom line in all three scenarios above is that both of you are legally able to buy and own firearms. One would think that it wouldn't make a difference...BUT IT DOES. And that fact is the reason why otherwise decent, legal people have been hung out to dry for straw purchases by Uncle Sam.


When you went through your wife's account to make the purchase, as far as Bud's was concerned, and as far as Uncle Sam is concerned, it was your wife making the purchase. When the gun was sent to the FFL, it was sent there with her name as the purchaser, because that's the account it went through.

THIS IS WHERE THINGS WENT WRONG.

The law doesn't care that both of you are legally able to buy and own guns. It DOES, however, care a whole lot about EXACTLY how the whole purchaser/possession thing goes. Buying it under your wife's account is the killer here.


THIS IS NOT ALWAYS AN EASY THING TO UNDERSTAND because people like you and I tend to lock onto what we think is the INTENT of the law. But in a court of law, intent is most often trumped by the WORDING of the law and exactly how any given encounter transpired with respect to that wording.

"The road to H*ll is paved by good intentions", as the saying goes. As well as "the devil is in the details".


None of us here wants to see anybody get caught up in something like this, because it's truly tragic.
 
rbernie is right and the OP is wrong in the eyes of the law.
Common sense and all the facts that the OP presented say he is right but the law says otherwise. As the article stated, the purpose was to stop prohibited people from purchasing a firearm but the fact remains that is also includes situations the OP encountered and the law will win and Buds was right.

Bud's sold the gun to your wife and it was shipped to your FFL c/o your wife. Your wife did not go in to pick it up. You did. Bud's and your FFL acted in the way to legally cover their backside. You don't matter. You may be right but you are totally wrong. Accept it and move on. No matter how many times you claim you are right, you are wrong. It's how the law is worded. Common sense plays no part in this stuff. You may be morally right but you are legally wrong.
 
You are wrong because using someones account to order a gun is not transferring the gun. Your conflating the issue. A buds account is not transferring the gun. The FFL does not care a bit about whos name the account is where the gun was ordered. What they do care about is who is doing the transfer and is it the same person that is going to own the gun. Not whos name some on line shop account is in. It could be Casper the friendly ghost. No different than if I used my brothers Gun Broker account to bid on a gun and have it sent to the FFL. If I am the one who applies for and gets ownership and I am the intended owner it does not matter if his account is Omaha61 or not. Buds did not sell the gun to my wife, they sold the gun and sent it to be transferred to the buyer.
 
Scenario 3: You go into a gun store with your buddy. He picks out the gun he wants and you pay for it. He fills out the 4473 and takes possession of it.

Uncle Sam steps in and arrests both of you for a straw purchase, takes you both to court and obtains a felony conviction. Now both of you can no longer own or buy firearms at all.

Why? Because YOU bought the gun, not your buddy. It was YOUR money that made the actual purchase.

Not true. In this scenario, no crime has been committed. A straw purchase requires lying on 4473. If the person filling out 4473 is the actual *transferee* (the person taking possession) and answers truthfully, no problem.

The only way this would be a straw purchase is if the guy filling out 4473 was acting as an agent for another person to acquire the gun (for example if he was actually intending to give the gun to the guy who paid for it)
 
Not true. In this scenario, no crime has been committed. A straw purchase requires lying on 4473. If the person filling out 4473 is the actual *transferee* (the person taking possession) and answers truthfully, no problem.

The only way this would be a straw purchase is if the guy filling out 4473 was acting as an agent for another person to acquire the gun (for example if he was actually intending to give the gun to the guy who paid for it)
Exactly in a nut shell. It all comes down to is the person saying they are the actual buyer on the 4473 the person who will own the gun, does not matter if you use a friends credit card, or grandma gives you cash. Are you who say I am the actual buyer the actual buyer. Case closed.
 
Can anyone tell what the point of this thread is? Op was looking for sympathy because he used the wrong account and is not getting any so he is throwing a fit. LOL

OP thinks he was wronged by Buds, he was not, why he is continuing to argue he is right when the argument is meaningless. Buds terms of service allow them to act as they did. End of story. Nothing to see here except someone who is bend out of shape and can't see that they are in the wrong.

Read the terms and conditions and all will be clear. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/conditions.php
 
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HOLD ON A MINUTE. Let's go back to our Sticky Thread on "WHAT IS A STRAW PURCHASE?"

Frank Ettin said:
Note: The Supreme Court has issued its ruling in the "straw purchase" case, Abramski v. U. S.. Based on that ruling the following explanation of what constitute a straw purchase under the ATF interpretation reflects current law. See here for a discussion of the Abramski ruling.


sota said:
...LEGALLY (folllowing all rules and regulations) buying 2* guns in my name with the explicit intent of selling 1 of those to a friend (also following all rules and regulations regarding private transfers) can not be considered a straw purchase, ...
Wrong.

dogtown tom said:
...A straw purchase is not solely "buying for a prohibited person", but buying on behalf of ANYONE else.....from a licensed dealer.
Correct.

The actual offense is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer), and has nothing to do with the ultimate recipient being a prohibited person.

See the ATF publication Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, 2005, at page 165 (emphasis added):
15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms...

So, if --

  1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or whenever else].", or

  2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."
or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Some more examples --

  • If X takes his own money, buys the gun and gives the gun to someone else as a gift, free and clear without reimbursement of any kind, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun honestly intending to keep it for himself and later sells it to another person, X is the actual purchaser; and it is not a straw purchase.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun intending to take it to the gun show next week to see if he might be able to sell it to someone at a profit, X is the actual purchaser; and it's not a straw purchase. He may, however have other problems if he manages to sell the gun at the gun show, and the transfer there isn't handled properly. He might also have problems if he does this sort of thing too frequently, and the ATF decides he's acting as a dealer without the necessary license.

  • If X takes his money and buys the gun with the understanding that he is going to transfer the gun to Y and that Y is going to reimburse him for it, X is not the actual purchaser. He is advancing X the money and buying the gun for and on behalf of Y, as Y's agent. So this would be an illegal straw purchase.

Whether or not a transaction is an unlawful straw purpose will often be a question of intent. But prosecutors in various situations can convince juries of intent, often from circumstantial evidence. A slip of the tongue, posting something on the Internet, tracks left by money transfers have all, in one way or another, and in various contexts, helped convince a jury of intent.




So? It seems clear that if the wife (or her account) purchased the gun then the wife had to be the one to fill out the 4473. Now, there's all sorts of grey painted all over who used who's account to make the purchase and proving anything definitive there would be an exercise no one is going to try and undertake.

But what a dealer needs to do is do their level best to have the buyer match the person filling out the transfer paperwork, and see that nothing else raises a red flag that would make the sale seem hinky.

NO DEALER EVER IS REQUIRED TO SELL YOU A GUN. They can deny that sale for any reason, or no reason. And if you come in to pick up a gun and your wife's name is on the sale but you try and fill out the paperwork that would be an instant rejection to almost FFL.
 
first of I never said Buds had to sell me the gun. I had requested buds to take the gun back as they were not going to honor the price match. I was fine with that from the get go, it saved me around 80 bucks on the same gun. Its the idea that I used a credit card in my name to buy the gun, and was going to be the owner fill out the 7743 and now its a straw purchase? There is no third party. None nada.
 
I don't think you broke the law and attempted to commit a straw purchase.

I COMPLETELY understand why the dealer and seller would reject the sale.
 
I just did a dry run again at Buds and nowhere does it say are you going to be the actual buyer of this gun. I only asks if the billing address is the one on file.. Again I think a lot of gun owners are afraid of the their shadow. ATF sure has done a good job in making people scared.
 
6. Why does my Customer and Billing information have to match?
Due to firearm regulations the Customer name must match the Billing name, and this person must be the intended recipient of the firearm, meaning no one can pick up the firearm but you--the actual purchaser. If this information doesn't match, your order can be delayed or canceled with fees. Simply put, no one can order, pay for, or accept transfer of a firearm except you, the actual buyer.

If you would like to purchase a gift for someone, please purchase a gift card from our website. You will be able to access a printable copy from your Bud's account or email it directly to your intended recipient. Then, the person you are purchasing the gift card for can apply the gift card code to their account, under their name.
last updated - 03/11/2014

FAQ #6 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/faq.php

The name on your order, your wife's because you used your account, did not match the payment or the person transferring the firearms. Clear as day end of discussion. You can huff and puff all you want but you are wrong. You made a mistake man up and move on life it too short.
 
Dealer was fine, I am not even sure Buds said it was wrong we mainly had a problem that Buds did a price match and would not honor it. I gave them the choice to either refund my entire purchase price or I would dispute the charge on my credit card which I did anyway just in case or they can refund the amount of the price match they did not credit to my purchase.
 
Dealer was fine, I am not even sure Buds said it was wrong we mainly had a problem that Buds did a price match and would not honor it. I gave them the choice to either refund my entire purchase price or I would dispute the charge on my credit card which I did anyway just in case or they can refund the amount of the price match they did not credit to my purchase.

So then what was the point of this thread?
 
WV I am not even talking about Buds rules, but ATF. I never read that BS anywhere. Not saying its not there somewhere as a kind of disclaimer but its not ATF law that I can find. If it was big on buds list of thing it would be there when you check out. I think its more disclaimer BS than anything else.
 
WV I am not even talking about Buds rules, but ATF. I never read that BS anywhere. Not saying its not there somewhere as a kind of disclaimer but its not ATF law that I can find. If it was big on buds list of thing it would be there when you check out. I think its more disclaimer BS than anything else.

But almost everyone in this thread has point out multiple times in multiple ways how the ATF could view this as a straw purchase. You are simply refusing to accept that your interpretation might be wrong.

This type of scenario has been hashed out here so many times. Many of the people who have built the consensus opinion illustrated in the sticky are lawyers. You choose to believe that they and the rest of us are wrong and you are right even in the face of solid legal interpenetration. At this point what else is there to discuss?
 
HOLD ON A MINUTE. Let's go back to our Sticky Thread on "WHAT IS A STRAW PURCHASE?"

So? It seems clear that if the wife (or her account) purchased the gun then the wife had to be the one to fill out the 4473.

It's not clear that this would be a legal requirement, since the law does not say as much, or even imply it. In fact, form 4473 says:

"For purposes of this form, you are
the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or
otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from
pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner)."

Note the phrase "otherwise acquiring" and the examples given, one of which is winning a raffle. In the raffle example, the transferee and the purchaser are separate entities, just like the scenario presented by OP.

However, from a practical point of view, any FFL would likely require the purchaser and transferee to be the same person as a general rule since it looks suspicious. If you know your FFL very well, it may be a non-issue.
 
WV I am not even talking about Buds rules, but ATF. I never read that BS anywhere. Not saying its not there somewhere as a kind of disclaimer but its not ATF law that I can find. If it was big on buds list of thing it would be there when you check out. I think its more disclaimer BS than anything else.

The ATF has a specific definition of a straw purchase. And they have very clear instructions to all FFLs that they should be quite conservative when it comes to identifying anything which might be indicative of a straw purchase taking place.

Buds has a specific policy. Whether or not it is a checkbox on the checkout page isn't really important at all. Like almost any other online retailer or provider of a service, if they feel you did not proceed in strict accordance with their policies (posted somewhere, wherever) then they can deny you that service and cancel your account.

Basically, it's their call, end of story.
 
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