Professional Trainers and Pistol Sleeves

[Vodoun da Vinci]

My newest heart throb pistol (Beretta Px4 9mm subcompact) and I have rapid fire accuracy issues. Very simply put: I'm all over the target in rapid fire trying to compensate for the snappy muzzle flip due to a higher bore axis.

The pistol is a tack driver in slow, concentrated, bulls eye single shot. The problem is me, my grip, my skill and familiarity level with this new purchase. I'm making headway and tightening things up by changing backstraps and grip fundamentals. I researched different grip options - which are negligible on polymer pistols. My choices are Talon style tapes, Hogue Handall, or a Pachmayr Tactical Grip Glove. I like the Grip Glove concept/offering and so I ordered 3 different sizes for evaluation 'cause they don't make an exact fit for the Px4 sc yet.



I was told at another forum that professional trainers call these sleeves "condoms" and when student struggle with drawing and getting a proper grip the instructors remove these sleeves "with prejudice" (usually with a sharp knife) because the students simply cannot establish a proper grip on the pistol while it is in the holster.

I thought I'd ask around a bit for perspective...not wanting to strike out on my own all self diagnosing my shooting deficiencies while telegraphing myself at the range as a "range plinker" or someone who is doing something that no pro trainer would think much of.

What do you guys think? I'm especially interested in pro trainers, students of some of the pro trainers, and guys who have these enhancements or "toys" on their pistols. I have little experience with polymer pistols (except my Glock 26 which I shoot like a competitor in rapid fire!!) but in the past have fitting my revolvers and pistols with custom Pachmayr and Hogue grips with tremendous success. Does it not work this way with polymer framed pistols in this century?

Thanks in advance!

VooDoo

 

[JTQ]

Here is Jerry Miculek's take on grips. This is for his revolver, but the concept would be true for auto's also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKz5BFS3Tk

Since you are a Glock shooter, I'm not surprised you like the finger groove grips. If that's what you like go for it.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Actually I was more after some form of texture under the palms like my Gen4 G26. The Beretta is wonder ful feeling and very precision but very smooth like glass under the palms. This weekend I'm gonna woodshed it and have about 400 rounds and a couple hours to work at it.

Thought I'd try some removable texture - if it helps, cool, If not? I can pop it off and continue working on the solution. I just didn't want to use a product that inflames or rubs pros the wrong way. I have been working with some firearms instructors at the local range since my return to shooting sports after a 30+ year hiatus.

I taught some of these guys kids martial arts and I have some degree of credibility with them I certainly do not want to jeopardize by being blatant in self training.

VooDoo

 

[HoosierQ]

I got one of these for my G19 because the finger grips don't line up with my fingers. I though about sanding them off. For $14 I found one of these with a cutout for the finger grips. Problem solved.

 

[Owen]

If you're all over the target in rapid fire, its because you're doing bad things to the trigger and not using the sights. The accuracy and precision of the gun are exactly the same regardless of how fast you are shooting. The difference is you.

Rather than looking for a technological fix, fix your technique.

I just didn't want to use a product that inflames or rubs pros the wrong way

Who cares what the pro's think? If it works for you, its good. If it doesn't work for you, its bad. The problem with those things is that they make the grip bigger, which is the opposite of what most people need with a double stack pistol.

 

[JohnBiltz]

What grip are you using? Two thumbs forward?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

What grip are you using? Two thumbs forward?

That's what we are working on this weekend. I have changed my grip to thumbs forward and worked at presentation with this for a couple hours now and I'm ready to shoot it this way.

Changing the back strap helped a lot and I'm betting that working out my technique will solve the rest of the issue - I have been largely inactive at shooting sports for over 30 years. Things have changed...a lot more than polymer pistols.

From my first post: "The pistol is a tack driver in slow, concentrated, bulls eye single shot. The problem is me, my grip, my skill and familiarity level with this new purchase. I'm making headway and tightening things up by changing back straps and grip fundamentals."

I know it's me and my problem. I'm just concerned about putting something on my pistol that will immediately alienate the considerable number of professional trainers that shoot at the same range. I have a great rapport with them so far and wouldn't want to try something (by way of being intuitive and focusing on self training) that might be obviously awkward.

VooDoo

 

[Fremmer]

So why not ask them what they think? I wouldn't worry so much about credibility if you want to learn....

 

[9mmepiphany]

It's hard to make suggestions as to technique, when we don't know which one you are using.

I gather you are changing over from Weaver to Isosceles

Just guessing, based on other clients:
1. You're still using Isometric tension...push/pull with your hands
2. You're squeezing too hard with your strong hand
3. You have to realign your sights after each shot

As owen mentioned already, trigger management plays the largest role in shooting accurately. It doesn't matter how quickly you are shooting, it all come down to trigger control.
1. Are you resetting the trigger in series or parallel with the muzzle flip?
2. Are you prepping the trigger, waiting for the sights to return to target?
3. Are you trying to press the trigger quickly as you see the sights in perfect alignment on the target?

If you aren't sure about any of the above, the best thing to do is ask your instructors to demonstrate them to you

 

[JohnBiltz]

If you are trying to get more grip
http://talongungrips.com/grips/springfield/

 

[Owen]

know it's me and my problem. I'm just concerned about putting something on my pistol that will immediately alienate the considerable number of professional trainers that shoot at the same range. I have a great rapport with them so far and wouldn't want to try something (by way of being intuitive and focusing on self training) that might be obviously awkward.

If it alienates them, they probably aren't trainers that you want to spend much time with. Personally I hate the things, but that would never stop me from trying to help some one on the range. The best trainers are rarely the "my way or the highway" kinds of people.

 

[Zerodefect]

If you're all over the target in rapid fire, its because you're doing bad things to the trigger and not using the sights. The accuracy and precision of the gun are exactly the same regardless of how fast you are shooting. The difference is you.

Rather than looking for a technological fix, fix your technique.



Who cares what the pro's think? If it works for you, its good. If it doesn't work for you, its bad. The problem with those things is that they make the grip bigger, which is the opposite of what most people need with a double stack pistol.

+1. Work on technique. You needs 2 out of 3 things to rapid fire well:
1.)Good grip
2.) Site picture
3.) trigger control

Concentrate on grip and trigger first at 10 yards.

Also.......Sorry, but I can't rapid fire that pistol well either. You might have to try a few more pistols to find the right one.

I want a 1911 to be MY best gun, but so far my Glock 23 is my best gun.

I'd stipple my Glock. Ick. Before using a rubber strap. We often use bike inner tubes over the grips on a FF rail on a Ar15.

 

[1911 guy]

I'm not a professional trainer, but I've taken a few classes with some. And I did sleep at a Holiday Inn, if that helps.

You know it's your technique and are looking for a fix. If changing something about the pistol makes it fit your hands better, that's a good thing. But feeling different does not always equal better. I'd start with whether the pistol fits your hands. While an accomplished shooter can make any pistol work for them, why put yourself behind the curve when learning? Analyze what can, if anything, make the gun fit. If nothing, trade for something that does fit.

Shoot slowly more. Rather than shooting with acceptable results, shoot to master the basics. You may even find yourself shooting a bit slower than originally. Have a quick session with a very accomplished handgunner, maybe some of the guys that frequent your range, and discover where you're messing up, even a little bit, on the fundamentals.

When you've got them down cold, pick up the pace. And the distance. 25 or 50 yards will reveal deficiencies in handgun technique. When technique suffers, dial it back a little to regain control. Two steps forward, one step back. Progress will come. Nobody becomes a Rob Leatham or Todd Jarrett overnight.

I believe it was Clint Smith who said there are no advanced techniques. There are only fundamentals applied faster and farther away.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I believe it was Clint Smith who said there are no advanced techniques. There are only fundamentals applied faster and farther away

I once had a World Class USPSA GM tell me pretty much the same thing. He said the 3 things that allowed him to shoot quickly and accurately were:
1. Using a grip that allowed the sights to return to the original POA
2. Perceiving the sights as being aligned on the target faster
3. Shortening the time between that perception and the final trigger press

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I wanted to thank everyone for their input in this thread and to know that I ordered and received the Pachmayr sleeves and checked them out. And rejected them as possible solutions/aids in my quest for better rapid fire accuracy with my Px4 Storm SC.

To be fair, Pachmayr does not make an exact fit for the Sub Compact and attempts to make due with a grip designed for a different gun (they do make one for the full size Storm) was ineffectual at best. I think the product is worthy of consideration on a full size Storm but not the SC. At any rate, this is not a solution I am even going to evaluate.

I *will* be altering my grip to adopt the thumbs forward style and really being conscious of stance and trigger control in an attempt to get where I want to be.

I'll reiterate that rapid fire accuracy with my G26, Colt 1903 Model M, my Colt Officers ACP in .45, and several revolvers is pretty danged good as it was with my Beretta 92S and all of my "Gun Buddies" pistols including Ruger LC9's, various Glocks and S&W's and even full sized Colt 1911 variations. I'm skeptical that my current grip, stance, and trigger control are deficient in general.

There is something about the Px4 sc that is significantly different and not yielding to my technique - a technique that seems to get me 90% of what I want/need out of virtually every pistol I shoot. Bad match? Trying too hard and letting shooting fundamentals slip?

I'm possibly conceited or letting ego talk but I don't think so. I think it's the slickery sides and general lack of texture. We'll see.

Thanks again for the generous opinions and feedback.

VooDoo

 

[Bovice]

How do you fare with a full size pistol?

Those baby guns are hard to shoot.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I think stance is overrated, too. At least a few trainers (that I've seen on video) have demonstrated that how you stand, stance etc is pretty unimportant- what matters is the grip and the geometry of your arms and body. If you only want to shoot bullseye then maybe stance is something to work on. But if you are hunting or carrying a gun for self defense you will probably have to shoot unexpectedly and from whatever stance you're in. Or you may need to utilize cover/concealment. When it clicked in my mind that the stance didn't matter, just the interface with the gun, my shooting got better, and more consistent.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

How do you fare with a full size pistol?

Those baby guns are hard to shoot.

The only full size guns I still own are revolvers and bulls eye and combat accuracy with the Dan Wesson .357 and S&W Model 19 is frankly outstanding.



Combat accuracy in Point and Shoot with my tiny Colt 1903, 95 years old and all original .32 ACP...these are 6" X 10" cards shot triple and quadruple tap at a cadence of about 3 rounds per second at 21'. I can pretty much cover the groups with my palm.



I don't have pictures but my shooting with my Glock 26, Colt Officers ACP, and various other pistols, small and full size, is pretty much as good/better than the shooting rapid fire with the tiny Colt Model M. My combat shooting with the Glock 26 last range session at 21' and 30' had the CCW proficiency class students pointing and smiling. My Wife made me switch pistols and let her shoot (gave me "The Look") for a while because I was "showing off". Which is not the case. I'm practicing survival skills and working hard on fundamentals. Not showing off.

I'm pretty good with a handgun and trained with police and some of my MA students that were military trainers at one time but mostly I'm self taught. I learned the mechanics and concept of self teaching/learning in 20 years of edged weapons study/teaching. I'm kinda lost as to why my favorite pistol is lack luster but I *will* sort it.

I am skeptical that I'm not using my trigger correctly or not following thru. I'll try point shooting at today's range session (after really working the grip change) and I have a sneaky feeling that I'll do a lot better abandoning the sights and point shooting with the Px4 SC. I feel the gun slipping in my hands under recoil though. It is not returning to position correctly hence my changing my grip to thumbs forward.

This might well solve it. There was no "Thumbs Forward" when last I trained...it was all weak hand thumb over strong hand thumb and I feel that the thumbs forward concept will put more meat on the frame and equalize things a bit helping the pistol return after recoil without slipping on my palms.

We'll see...pix and self evaluation later this weekend.

VooDoo

 

[1911 guy]

Discussions about "Combat Accuracy" make me cringe. A firearm is either accurate or not. A shooter is either accurate or not. Combine an accurate firearm with an accurate shooter and the holes go where they need to.

While there is DEFINATELY a place for "good enough" accuracy, don't let "Combat accuracy" be a crutch to let bad habits slide.

 

[9mmepiphany]

There was no "Thumbs Forward" when last I trained...it was all weak hand thumb over strong hand thumb and I feel that the thumbs forward concept will put more meat on the frame and equalize things a bit helping the pistol return after recoil without slipping on my palms.

Overlapping the strong thumb with the weak thumb will tend to cause the gun to jump toward the weak side and drift off target as it returns from muzzle flip.

Lateral pressure with the support hand centers the gun during muzzle flip and allows it to return to POA if you aren't applying other vectors of force to the frame (pulling or pushing)

I suspect that the gun just feels too small in your hand and you're applying more pressure (with the strong hand) than is needed. You may even be applying pressure with your strong hand finger tips...causing shots to drift left (for a right hander)

The trigger of the Beretta should be manipulated just like that of your M-19 or DW. The bore axis is much higher on them than the PX4

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Warmed up and practiced with the "Thumbs Forward" grip...slow concentrated fire with special attention the maintaining proper grip, head position, trigger control, etc. for perhaps 100 rounds using Fiocchi 115 gr. FMJ. Then increased the speed and started working on picking up the gun, flicking off the decocker, then 1st shot DA and rapid follow ups SA maintaining strict grip. I loaded 8 in the 13 round mags and started with hammer down and one in the pipe.

Somewhere in the middle of the next 100 rounds of the same ammunition this is what we got:



I shot triple and quadruple taps at 21' with a brisk cadence taking about 1 second to get 3-4 shots. Let the gun slide off the target (down) finger off the trigger, raised the gun and repeat til the slide locked. Careful and leisurely reload with fresh mag with 8 more rounds, release using slide release, and continue until empty.

Not as good as my Glock 26 in a similar routine but distinct improvement and I'm happy/making progress considering how much experience I have with this pistol. I would consider this accurate enough to consider carrying this pistol for CCW and self defense. I don't think adding anything like the grip sleeve would have helped as much as going thumbs forward and just knuckling down and working at it. I still feel like the gun is slippery in my hands but it jumps up and returns very well without moving in my hands so....

Can't wait to try thumbs forward on the Glock and on my Colt Officers ACP. So, I don't need to alter/add to the gun and selling it to save face and frustration has been avoided. Plus I learned a new technique (grip) which proves that old dogs do learn new tricks

VooDoo